WH40K - 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread (SDN)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Closing the commentaries on Connor's 1st and 2nd Edition analysis thread, I take a look at the next one, dealing with the next two editions:

Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

Tyranid codex 2001 (thats how I think of it at least.. so I'm guessing 3rd edition.)

Page 2

The Tyranid hive fleet consists of millions of living craft, each home to billions of creatures.

Size and scope of a Hive Fleet.

Plus the following bits:

In their [hive fleet] wake was left a bare rock orbiting a star, scoured of every organic particle, stripped of all but the most basic elements. Nothing was left of the farming world of Langosta III, there were no testmaents to the humans who had once lived there. Now all that was left was an airless asteroid, the unmarked deathpalce of three million people.

So now, some of Connor's first big numbers:

Page 41

As resistance is overcome more and more of the planet's surface is stripped bare by continuous harvesting until the hive fleet concludes its actions by draining the planet's atmosphere and seas. AT this point many hiveships will calve, adding to the fleet's numbers of drone-vessels and immature bio-ships.

STripping the air off a planet requires 3e26 joules of energy. STripping the ocean off requires something on the order of 9e28 joules of energy. actual power generation figures depend on time and number of ships, but even then this gives us a broad indication of their power (and by extention, Imperial capabilities)

1. You don't need to make water and air reach escape velocity by application of energy delivered by weapons, just pull matter off the ground high enough for the orbital ships to absorb it and/or sheath themselves with this matter (see below). Tyranids come to harvest worlds in large numbers, so this shall prove enough to divide the required effort, as you'll see.

2. As pointed out, no indication of time is given. The process could be long. How this should then be representative of firepower or else?
A full day of work is 1440 minutes spent doing the draining. That's already three orders of magnitude down from the energy figures.

3. The hive fleet has millions of living crafts. Depending on how many ships are involved in the draining, you could probably lower the total energy figures by four orders of magnitude if not more.

4. How is the draining achieved? Are physics respected (Newtonian physics instead of gravity nullifying stuff or some such)?
This page, which cites an entire section from Tyranid Codex, The Spawning, hints at towering filaments that grow up, reaching for the skies and beyond, into orbit, to which the bio-ships connected for nourishment. Capilarity making things easier for molecules to go up, and most important, the work wouldn't be done by the ships in orbit.
Why these things couldn't be used to inhale the atmosphere and suck the oceans, especially since the text precisely says "drink oceans"?
When everything is taken literally, why not now?
Also, "hive ships would cluster in tighter", perhaps coming closer to the planet for the final phase of the operation.

Last but not least, from here, I got the following quotation:

Strictly speaking the consumption of the planet under attack is continuous from the moment the hiveships achieve low orbit and release organisms into the atmosphere. -p.41 3rd ed. Tyranid Codex

Got it? At the very beginning of the operation, hive ships already fly at low orbit. So escape speed is not needed to gather water and air (although it will partially required to complete what's neede to leave later on).

Now, we happen to have a detailed example:

Transmitted: Magos Biologis
Research Station:
New Hallefuss

Received: Talasa Prime

Subject: Tyranid Planetary Assimilation Analysis

Date:3205766.M41

Astropath: Prime Felnun

Ref: INQ.XR.01044/A

Horizontal Rule

Lord Commanders,

I bring you grave news. The threat we face may be far more vast than we ever dreamed. Technical analysis of Dalki-Prime pre Tyranid consumption survey information when cross-referenced with the data from Dalki-Mons post Tyranid consumption shows some startling information.

Dalki-Prime was an agricultural planet with a diameter of 12,500 km, slightly smaller than Terra. The Tyranid fleet was able to remove the following quantities of material from the planet within 100 days [Terran Standard].

1.55 billion cubic km water, one cubic km of sea water weighs over 1 trillion kg.
8.67 billion cubic km gases, at STP theoretically they could reduce this to 1 tenth its volume by super cooling and pressure (3 atm, and 0ºC).
72 million cubic km soil and minerals, weighing 1.4 trillion kg per cubic km.

It is nearly inconceivable how they were able to accomplish this in such a short time, much less explain where the materials were taken, as the typical hive fleets encountered historically are not capable of transporting even a fraction of this volume. Over 10 billion cubic kilometres of material was removed from the planet. This would require untold millions of ships and is far beyond the scope of the entire Adeptus Mechanicus to accomplish given a decade. Most astonishing is that this is insufficient to sate their hunger and they strike again and again, often within months. We must somehow determine if these fleets are somehow sending material back to their home systems for it seems obvious that they are not using all the materials.

Detailed analysis of devastated worlds have yielded the following data in conjunction with orbital surveillance satellite and data recordings which were recovered.

TYRANID PLANETARY ASSIMILATION: DALKI-PRIME

Analysis of records from Dalki-Prime have indicated invasion began quietly without any full-scale assault. A drop pod was detected entering the atmosphere of the southern hemisphere; this occurrence is the first known indication of Tyranid activity. We have chronologically designated this as day 0 insertion.

Day 7: PDF forces engaged and destroyed over 137 individual Tyranid organisms in an uninhabited area where the mycetic spore landed. No record exists of the elimination of a Hive Node creature but the mission was designated a success by the lax planetary governor, against the registered complaints of the PDF commander.

Day 9: Two separate outbreaks of Tyranid infestation were encountered, both over 200 kilometres from the initial insertion point. PDF were dispatched along with considerable forces of the IG garrison.

Day 13: Tyranid organisms were dredged from the main fishery areas on the northern coast some 700 kilometres from initial insertion point. Conflicts continued in both other fronts. Basolithic infestation is assumed to be progressing unchecked at this time.

The Planetary Governor issues a distress call.

Day 37: Major sections of all surface areas within 2,000 kilometres of the insertion point are firmly within Tyranid control. Basolithic infestation is verified by PDF navy submersibles which are destroyed 5,000 kilometres from main insertion point. Undersea agricultural complexes are attacked and destroyed.

Desalination plants along the coast were invaded from within and destroyed, access being easily gained from the large pumping stations.

Day 42: Planetary Governor and staff abandon the planet to the control of IG commander Gal Markit, who immediately orders orbital planetary bombardment with little success.

Day 48: IG forces are sorely pressed at all junctures, field reports indicate exponential growth in the numbers of Tyranid creatures. (Rough estimates indicate doubling every 2.5 days.)

Day 50: All psychic contact with Dalki-Prime is cut off by the overpowering presence of the Tyranid hive fleet which drops from warp space around the planet. Preliminary estimates place the numbers of space borne creatures at 1.46 billion. All escape attempts from this point on are intercepted and destroyed.

Mycetic poison spores are released into the atmosphere. These rapidly grow on all organic material, rhizomes burrow deep into organic tissue releasing enzymes to begin the rendering of the material. These aid the Rippers and also render any exposed material useless to other creatures as a food source as the fungus is highly poisonous to most life forms. Living creatures exposed to high concentrations of spores [200 per m3] typically develop lethal mycetial infestations within the lungs. Death occurs within 24 hours.

Day 51: Primary consumption of all biomass on Dalki-Prime commences with little resistance. Brood ships land on the planet and release the Ripper larvae, billions upon billions of them. These voracious creatures spread out, divesting the planet of all organic material and returning to the reclamation pools to deposit the nutrient broth. Capillary towers relay the material to orbit. Brood ships periodically return to orbit and unload this material to the great brood factories and feeder ships. Surface and aerial mobile lifeforms which do not succumb to the spore clouds are hunted and eliminated in the initial stages. This continues for approximately 8-10 days non-stop, accomplished primarily by Gaunt species, the carcasses left to the Rippers and the spores. These hunter swarms return to the Rippers to obtain regurgitated digested food.

Day 80: Ripper swarms, having systematically divested the land masses and basolithic planes of soil and dermis, board the brood ships and return to space. Once this has been completed the huge hive ships descend into the upper atmosphere. These creatures, which resemble primitive radiant life forms with long tentacles, then drop into the atmosphere and begin removing it. As the atmospheric pressure is reduced, the water of the oceans begins to evaporate and it too is vacuumed up. As the tectonic plates begin to move due to the shift in planetary pressures caused by the removal of the vast oceans, volcanic activity increases dramatically. Devoid of the huge weight of the oceans many areas rupture, spewing hot gases and lava onto the surface. As the hive ships take the last remnants from the planet, they retreat into the warp leaving the barren sphere in its death throes.

Day 100: Imperial Navy arrives in response to the distress call finding the planet lifeless.

The ships descend into the atmosphere, and even if we took Connor's energy figures at face value, we'd go with the inferior atmosphere-relative one, since the ships take it first, which dramatically eases the task of "drinking" the water, largely turning into gas.

Nevertheless, we have ample evidence that we certainly don't have to use those 3e26 J and 9e28 J figures.

PAge 42

They [Tyranids] would strip away its atmosphere and drink its oceans, covering their mile-long bodies with frozen sheaths of oxygen and hydorgen, nitrogen and chlorine in preparation for the journey ahead.

...

"You led the Cobra squadron to Tethris and participated in the Exterminatus."

"Aye, though there was little honour in dropping out of the warp to launch cyclonic torpedoes and then fleeing."

...

"They actually managed to block a third of our torpedoes but the rest hit cleanly. I saw the fire vortexes spread and multiply. The planet burned."

****************

On Tethris, an endless ash-plain shifted and then cracked apart as the first of the newly pupated rippers burrowed its way up to teh surface and hissed its definace at an empty sky.

Various points of interest:

- "Mile long" tyranid vessels. No idea of what they are, but it may be implied to be hive ships (small ones?) Again they strip off the water and atmosphere of the planet. Interestingly, they "sheathe" it around themselves, suggesting they not only can expend the energy, but absorb huge quantites as well.

- Cobra destroyers (if properly equipped) can conduct exterminatus operations as well (which seems to be an exception to the BFG-oriented rules) Presumably the weapons are fired out of hte torpedo tubes. (If there are about 6 8 destroyers in a squadron, there were probably between 20-30 torpedoes, tops, if they fired only one salvo.

- The Destroyers launched upon exiting the warp. This can mean one of two things. Either a.) the Destroyers dropped out of teh warp some distance in system before launching (possible, but unlikely) or b.) they launched from some distance away (probably the edge of the system.. many AU off) and targeted the planet. This seems liklier, as we already know of long range bombardment examples, and this simply reinforces that torpedoes and missiles can engage at extremely long ranges (millions or billions of kilometers)

- We dont know for sure if these are technobabble cyclonic torpedoes or brute force ones, but the latter (Based on TActica Imperialis) seems liklier. The fact it triggers firestorms and needs multiple warheads seems to suggest this, ,but its not certain The effects are pretty straightforward though - they trigger global firestorms and basically heat the atmosphere to what can be termed sterilization temperatures. The fact that it basically incinerates everyhting on the surface of the planet suggests this (cremation temperatures are in excess of 1000-1200K) Generating those levels of energy would requier billions of megatons easily.(5e18 kg of air on an earthlike planet, about 1.2 MJ per kg to heat the atmosphere to 1500K) This does assume high efficiency, so it could be alot higher, but probably not massively so since its purpose-built for "airburst". The fact that a Tyranid can burrow undeground to avoid the attack also reinfores the airburst nature of the attack.

This also means each cyclonic torpedo generates hundreds if not thousands of teratons.

1. The sheathing doesn't require any absorption of energy aside from what would be spent to bring matter into orbit, nor does the cooling of air and water molecules, obviously done naturally.

2. Going by wikipedia, a squadron is about 2 to 6 such ships. Destroyers have a pair of torpedo tubes, likely used for this operation. Now, why assume only one salvo? Since the implication is that such destroyers aren't generally used for Exterminatus ops, and are therefore modified, why not consider the plausibility that they're also jammed with cyclonic torpedoes?

3. Firing upon exiting warp actually means the Imperium squadron didn't want the Tyranids to have time to react to their arrival. Therefore, the more distance the squadron would put between itself and its target, the more time the Tyranids would have on their hands to detect and intercept the missiles.
Besides, notice that the leader saw the fire vortexes spread and multiply. I suspect this to be quite hard when either sitting at a long distance, still intra-system, and rather absurd if the ships had actually fired from an extra-system position.
That and the fact that the ships departed and then fled, which is completely antinomic to the idea of these ships moving closer to Tethris to observe the devastation.

Actually, there's more information from the Tyranid Codex (4th Ed.).

The cell was small, no more than three paces from one iron wall to the other. The presense of the Space Marine, even stripped of his armour, reduced it to nothing. Brass and steel chirugeon-machines were hooked into the giant's black carapace, labouring to repair the deep burns seared across it. Inquisitor Kryptman viewed the hulking Space Marine impassively, weighing his ability to report against his evident pain. The warrior's heavy-jawed face was stoic, and he spoke first.

"I am fit to report, Inquisitor, I've suffered worse."

"You led the Cobra squadron to Tethris and participated in the Exterminatus."

"Aye, though there was little honour in dropping out of warp to launch cyclonic torpedoes and then fleeing."

"Tyranids are creatures without any concept of honour. You had to fight anyway by all accounts."

"They had a double ring of pursuit drones and deep space mines stationed around the planet. We covered the other ships' retreat and... I'm sure you know the rest."

"Precisely, but you were best positioned to observe the planet itself and the impact of the warheads. What did you see?"

"Tethris was completely changed. It looked verdant like a jungle planet but with strange coloured clouds in the atmosphere. There were... spines which projected up from the surface into space which some of the Tyranid ships were connected to. They actually managed to block a third of our torpedoes but the rest hit cleanly. I saw the fire vortexes spread and multiply. The planet burned."

As we see, the squadron was actually very close to Tethris, no doubt about that.

4. Well of course, as mere observers, we don't really learn what in "Tactica Imperialis" really pushes us to discard the technobabble option for the raw power one.
I don't even know if there's a problem pointing out the issue that only such few ships could run such a devastating Exterminatus. Why the need for the bigger ships then, and all the impression that when such larger ships arrive, it's doom time for a world? (that said, the Space Marines' large battle barges are explicitly meant to carry on Exterminati).
Yes, the planet burned, which is just as vague as it can get, unless you want to take it literally, as always. Still, when a car is said to burn, it doesn't mean every cubic centimeter of the materials that compose it are on fire. When a city is said to burn, it's not literally sheathed in a fire storm that slags its foundations.

Now, an Exterminatus is supposed to be complete, but a third of the entire load of missiles was intercepted.
Besides, there are important points to make:

a. The squadron was called Cobra Squadron. However, does this really mean the ships were Cobra destroyers?
b. The squadron "participated in the Exterminatus." Were they really alone or not?
c. "We covered the other ships' retreat" seems to imply the presence of other ships. The leader of Cobra Squadron identified his group, thus far, as Cobra Squadron. Now it's "we", and we helped "other ships" to retreat. It would seem that Cobra Squadron was involved in the protection of other ships, which is the point of destroyers after all.








Sidenote: A quotation contained the following information:

The bio-ships which comprise the fleet may either exit the warp simultaneously at the edge of the system or, in many reported instances, exit in deep space and drift towards their objective. This latter approach renders the hive fleet virtually invisible to long-range augury and astrotelepathic detection.

Rather interesting, Hive Fleets obviously elude detection systems.
Can't spot some drifting stuff?
It implies this particularity also applies to other ranges of sensors from various races, otherwise that technique would prove completely worthless.
Therefore sensors are not capable of long range (several LY) deep space scanning.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Thread's 2nd page.
Connor picks the 2005 Tyranids Codex.

Page 9

Crippled ultramarines ships which Calgar had left in orbit above hurled bolts of ruby flame and megatons of explosive death upon the Tyranids, but still they came on.

Ultramarines ships "crippled" can still fire multimegaton payloads onto Tyranids, and it doesn't do much to stop them. So much for nuclear spamming a Tyranid attack.

Nothing says they spammed The tyranids with nukes, and it's rather obvious that if the creatures had been truly spammed, the Imperium would have lost its forces on the ground as well.
Moreover, the fact is that once Tyranids land on a planet, numbers and swarming is what they're good at. So unless you decide to slag a world with a heavy and large nuke spam, then it won't stop them, especially if they already happen to be too close to your troops.

Page 20

His plan was that a band of worlds should be evacuated across the path of Leviathan's main advance, with many of them razed to the ground in order to deny the hive fleet any further raw materials for its ships. This would slow is advance long enough for Battlefleets Solar and Tempestus to muster. Any worlds already under invasion within the bounds of this cordon were to undergo Exterminatus just at the poitn when the Tyranids descended to feed upon the doomed populace. Kryptman theorised that in this manner the swarms would expend great resource to claim a world, only to have every living thing upon it reduced to ash by barrages of cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs.

Kryptmans plan to halt the Tyranid Hive Fleet Leviathan. Denying the Tyranids "resourcees" requires removing both the atmosphere and the oceans, a feat which would require e27-e29 joules of energy to accomplish (mainly due to the oceans) per world.

Rendering Extemrinatus on the world via cyclonics or virus bombing would probably require superheating the atmosphere to incienration elvel temperatures (1500K) - at least e24-e25 joules. Incinerating a planet's worth of biomass (considering what the Tyranids can use, including oceans) probably requires more akin to e27-e28 joules at least.

We don't know how many ships are conducting it (although probably less than a full battlefleet given the number of worlds to cover) or how long it takes (either rapidly by most means, ,IE cycloincs, or hours by more conventional), but even by more broad definitions we're probalby still talking teraton range regardless.

Isn't it a bit excessive, again, to consider that to deny raw material to spaceships, the Imperium would need to vapourize water and send both former atmosphere and vapourized water out of the planet's gravitational field?
And what about raw materials? What are they?
I'm jumping quotes a bit here, since the interesting bit is mentioned later on, and we actually learn what the tactic is truly about.

Here, we get to some more stuff relating to the tactical/strategic situation between Imperium and Tyranids. I like this mainly because of how it relates to us the Imperium's warfighting capability, and (to an extent) puts all other threats (and the whole "Galaxy at War" atittude) in real perspective.

Also, if you didn't get enough of me mentionin Tyranids surviving Exterimnauts or jus thow hard they would be to nuke-spam, here's yet more conclusive proof. Also, more on the "biomass denial" trick Kryptmann was ostracized for. Poor Kryptman.

Page 26

To summarise, our strategy in this regard has been the doctrine of 'Biomass Denial'. A Tyranid hive fleet must expend a staggering amount of energy in taking one of our worlds provided our forces are able to mount an effective defence. Frequently, we have been able to draw the hive fleet into committing ever increasing reserves of energy into taking the world, at which point, we attempt to withdraw the bulk of our forces, ,and deny the hive fleet its price, by way of enacting Exterminatus upon the target world. This has the effect of critically draining the hive fleet's resourcecs, as it has no biomass with which to replenish the energy expended in taking the world."

Here we see the Anti-Tyranid tactic defined as "Biomass denial" One assumes that by energy they mean "effort", since a Hive fleet usually recovers mass from most planets, not energy. (we dont knwo where they get energy, but its presumably from the warp like most biowank.) Though this may imply some sort of "matter/energy" conversion as well.

Kryptman's plan in detail. The Exterminatus was not about stripping a planet of its water and atmosphere.
It was about destroying the biomass with the use of virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes.
These are solid projectiles, which in the realm of WH40K, would have certainly no problem to penetrate oceans and detonate down there.

Some Tyranids survive to Exterminatus by burrowing deep into the crust. Do I guess that an Exterminatus is incomplete if it can't manage to kill any sort of species that would have to live underground?
To which the answer would be: that's what virus bombs are for.
And to which my reply would be: if it works for creatures living in the crust, without literally blasting the crust and vapourizing rock, why wouldn't it work for oceans then? Why vapourize them then?
Remember, it's a doctrine called Biomass Denial, not Operation Airless Rock.

I'm surprised he didn't attempt to claim that bioships would survive bathing into those e27-28 joules, since if you remember, bioships descend into low orbit first, then the upper atmosphere and then the atmosphere.
Or perhaps that's also what he had in mind with Nids surviving Exterminatus? I really doubt it.
Anyway, with the firepower claimed by Connor, the question would not be is there any biomass left for the Nids? But do the Nids even survive this?

Page 21

Using their ship's teleporter array, the Deathwatch then sent megatons of high-grade explosives into the heart of a nearby moon, Gheist. The resultant explosion not only destroyed the moon, but also diverted the passing space hulk's course deep into the empire of the Orks of Octavius.

Oddly, the mention of "psychoportive weaponry" is mentioned in the first Soul Drinkers novel, this may actually represent one example. Its also a much more valid tactic for them than it is for,s ay, Trek. (most universes couldn't expect their defenses to stop em.)

We also dont know whether "megatons" refers to yield, or the quantity of explosive, nor the size of the moon. If its at least the size of one of Mar's moons, we might expect at least a couple gigatons. If its larger, well.. the yield will be larger. Given that it diverted a passing space hulk (via debris impact) we might conjecture the thing is quite large.

Conjecture being the word, indeed.
Earlier on, when we read that crippled ships "hurled bolts of ruby flame and megatons of explosive death upon the Tyranids", we didn't hear that megatons of explosive stuff was an indication of the total mass of the stuff that explodes, right?
It was good enough, earlier on, to attempt proving that so called megatons of energy, via "spamming", wasn't even good enough against Tyranid ground forces.
So why do we need to move back to projectile mass now?
You have to laud the audacity to claim that important masses would be stated with prefix mega, instead of the typical use of qualifiers such as millions or billions of tonnes of explosives.
Even if we know that it can be worded this way, and probably has been in some other sources, this is a rather glaring attempt at avoiding the idea that petajoules of energy, and no more, were involved in those incidents.
Of course, a moon blasted by megatons, be they 2 or 999, cannot be "quite large." It would actually make a small moon.

We can already use Wong's asteroid blaster, since the megatons were dumped into the moon's core.
The value relative to fragmentation energy points to an asteroid being 10 km wide. But that degree of fragmentation is not needed, and quite excessive.
What we need, at least for a low end, is the gravitational binding energy to overcome.

Here's the varying asteroid sizes, in kilometers, depending on composition and total yield:

Code: Select all

                    \           |                   |
                      \ Yield  |       2 MT     |      999 MT
      Composition  \       |                   |                   
 -----------------------|-------------|-------------------
                                |                   |
           Ice                 |       13.6      |      42.27
                                |                   |
 -----------------------|-------------|-------------------
                                |                   |
       Hard-Granite        |       9.3        |      32.31
                                |                   |
 -----------------------|-------------|-------------------
                                |                   |
       Nickel Iron           |       5.75      |      19.86
                                |                   |

The figures do not evoke huge moons.
As for the impacts with debris, even a 100 meters wide asteroid impact would not be negligible, because unless the thrusters, or whatever engines were used, manage to compensate the new input of momentum, then the space hulk will just have to accept the fact that now it's moving along a new trajectory which wasn't exactly the one it planned to follow.

Page 27

There are two reported methods by which Tyranid creatures have survived the destruction of a world. The first, which has been confirmed at Tethris and Caelus Delta and is suspected at Lamarno, is achieved by way of smaller bio-forms, such as Rippers, burrowing deep beneath a world's crust, there to enter a state of hibernation until such time as the presence of life upon the surface is detected.

....

The second observed manner in which Tyranid organisms have survived Exterminatus was reported to the Strategic Collecive following a Deathwatch mission to the world of Ariadne V. Following exterminatus by way of Damnatus-pattern, mass-yield cyclonic saturation, the surface of the world was reduced to drifting ash, the amotsphere entirely seared away. Yet pict-logs of the mission show what was at first believed to be a natural rock formation rising out of the s wirling dust storms. Closer inspection revealed the truth - the structure was in fact a member of the Carnifex genus, which had survived the cataclysmic effects of the cyclonic torpedo, and entered a state of dormancy within which it could mend the grievous wounds done to it. The moment the creature detected their presence and began to stir, the Killteam called down a melta torpedo strike from their cruiser in orbit. Though the beast was destroyed, Ariadne V is declared Perdita, for, if one such bio-form can survive, then how many more may go undetected.

These examples have interesting implications.The first suggests that some forms of Exterminatus are only a "surface" extermination. That is they can be expected to eliminate all forms of life on the surface of a planet, at least up to a certain depth. But that such bombardments do not, as a rule reach deep into the crust, and so may be avoided by certain cases. (logically, this suggests hundreds of meter,s, since we know the Imperium can bury bunkers and defenses, ,esp planetary defenses, this deep for protective reasons.) From this we may conjecutre there are other kinds of "deeper" penetrating Exterminatus, such as conventional (lance, battery, torpeod) bombardment which will. (It also suggests that you can expect sucah bombardment to melt/pulverize the crust up to at least a kilometer or so in depth, possibly more, ,be it Tyranid infestation or not. Which in turn suggests the energy requirements for exterminatus extend well into the e26-27 joule range)

THe second example is frmo a cyclonic bombardment, with the result of superheating the atmosphere (and cremating all life on the surface) as well as blowing said atmosphere off (E25-2e26 joule range) delivered by a single (or small volley) of torpedoe(s) from a single strike cruiser. And yet, a Carnifex survived, whcih establishes (Broadly) what kinds of forms we coudl expect to survive severe temperatures for an undefined period of time (which in turn tells us how resistant the Tyranids are to forms of attack such as nuclear. As if I need to further emphasize this point.) Carnifexes are larrge forms, but certainly not the largest the Tyranids have lying around./

Dang. I didn't even begin to think that there could be anything from the first report that would be worth wanking out, but oh boy how wrong I was!

The first case Exterminatus must be able to dig up, read slag, hundreds of meters of rock deep into the crust of any planet, because there happens to be fortified structures built at such depths.
You'd think it would be absurd to seek protection from hundreds of meters of rock if your enemy was using teraton level weapons regularily.

Also, what about the fact that when gigaton levels of energy are released in hypocenters, powerful earthquakes cause widespread destruction on the surface of our planet, after the waves travelled through kilometers and kilometers of rock, so then why the smaller bio-forms, the frail Rippers, would think they'd be safe from being squished by the shockwaves by burrowing themselves only hundreds of meters deep when the Imperium would fire gigatons at a surface?
Obviously, they'd seek going as deep as possible.

Yet somehow Connor thinks it means the Exterminatus can literally peel off a multi-hundred meters thick layer of the crust, if not a kilometer thick one!
Why even claim so deep reaching Exterminatuses, when Kryptman used both virus bombs and cyclonic torpedoes, while the third type of WMD is the atmospheric incinerator torpedo, which will obviously not be better at reaching any deeper?

It's actually an interesting section here, which might point out the lack of reason that defines the usual interpretation of pieces of literatture, SDN style, a place known for its parsimonious quantifications.

See, Connor admits the first reported Exterminatus was a surfacic one. Yet we know it involved two types of weapons, which don't seem to do a good job at reaching deep into a crust.
We also know that an Exterminatus is an excessive and brutal use of power to destroy a world, but still allows for the rebuilding of a new colony.
Finally, we see that the third type of WMD is a weapon that strictly affects the atmosphere, glassing whatever the ignited atmosphere kisses.

I'm also again surprised that Connor didn't attempt to translate "deep beneath the crust" as "Rippers hibernate in magma".

The second chapter is the one which initially poked my attention.
Connor makes some claims which I'm not sure really fit with the provided data.

First, he says that the atmosphere was blown off (seared away), which may have been another case of hyperbole. But the wrench is that after the operation, dust storms happen on the surface of the planet:
"A dust storm or sandstorm is a meteorological phenomenon common in arid and semi-arid regions and arises when a gust front passes or when the wind force exceeds the threshold value where loose sand and dust are removed from the dry surface."
Swirling dust storms, from the point of view of someone on the ground, is not exactly something I'd expect on an airless planet.

The Deathwatch sent a Killteam down to Ariadne V, for a ground report on the completed Exterminatus mission. The Carniflex there sort of woke up. The fact that a Killteam called down for an orbital strike proves that these guys were walking the planet, and therefore came there after the Exterminatus. These are the guys who noticed the rock feature through the swirling dust storms. So these storms were happening after the Exterminatus.

Secondly, Connor assumes a single volley or small salvo from the strike cruiser, but we don't know how much ammo the Deathwatch's ship spent on Ariadne V, nor how long it took.
Well if he does, the information would be useful.

Mainly, his numbers stem from the "seared away" part. But Cyclonic torpdoes are bizarre weapons that consume the oxygen of an atmosphere. Connor interprets "away" spatially, while it can equally refer to a change of state, of not being what it was anymore.
That's without counting TVtropes and other sites claiming that cyclonic torpedoes can blow planets or liquefy the surface (and then on another page claiming they only put atmosphere on fire), and other people on game forums claiming that they destroy matter and dump everything into vortices or wormholes.

Either this remains as a high end demonstration of firepower, with atmosphere removal, or a less powerful event that scorches a world off its life. All systems seem to share a technobabble origin anyway, by having an atmosphere burn itself.

Page 12

Ork Burnas are powerful cutting torches used in battle to melt enemy armour. When he is within distance the Burna Boy can crank open the nozzle and unleash a torrent of flame to incinerate foes, even those skulking in woods or behind walls.

Burnas seem t be part flamethrower, part blowtorch, and part melta weapon. Makes one wonder if Imperial flamers might do it (redemptionists have had similar flamers on Necromunda)

"Incinerate" foes tends to suggest burnas have a similar output to other "heavy/special" weapons like flamers or meltas (tirple digit megajoule to gigajoule.)

Excessive interpretation of "incinerate", so little to nothing of a foe remains. Hundreds of megajoules passed off as a low end (180 MJ are required to vapourise the water of an average human). Nothing new.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... art=0&sa=N

Page 34

Burnas are cutting torches used by Mekboyz for carving up vehicle wrecks into useable chunks. However, a quick twist of the mixture valve and WHOOOSH! the burna spits out a blast of incinerating flames.

Again mention of burnas, though her'e they're described as "cutting torchse", suggesting they are more of an impromptu flamer (using gas preusmably rather than liquid chemical fire..) Also note again they're capable of "incinerating"

Could a gas carry enough momentum so once superheated, it wouldn't actually blossom out of the gun too soon and roast its flame-gunner?

Page 38

Great daggers of flame stabbed out from their shootas and hot shell casings spewed everywhere. The resulting storm of fire whipped across the armoured ranks and sparks flew as shots ricocheted off the Space MArine's armour, some of them fell but the line kept stubbornly advancing.

Ork slugga fire bounced off Spacee MArine armor.

Yes and some marines fell. Something like angle of impact is obviously important here.

Page 38

Ruzgob added emphasis by kicking his ammo runt a good thre metres.

Assuming a Runt (Gretchin) masses somewhere around 50-60 kg (smaller than humans), suggesting the momentum of an Ork kick could be anywhere in the 100-150 kg*m/s range (at least), possibly several hundred kg*m/s

But isn't that Ruzgob quite bulky? When you consider the usual cartoonish proportions applied to Orks, and how they compare to space marine suits, that Ork is likely going to be very wide and muscular. Gretchins are, in reality, smaller in comparison, and frail looking. Look at their size in comparison to the weapon they carry, or the weapon carried by the Ork. A Boy is supposed to be 2 meters tall.
Is there anything spectacular then, that an extremely bulky and two meters tall Ork can kick a much smaller and frailer creature with such ease?

Final update for this Ork Codex.. I'll probably cover the other one (2007 one) next.

The details on Ork biology/genetics stuff follows...

Page 46

Every Orkoid is a symbiosis of two biologies within a single structure. As well as a standard gene-spiral, every Orkoid also possesses a spiral of an algal/fungal base. The standard genetic structure of an Orkoid remains essentially the same as that of man, in that it dictates the majority of the creature's form and biological procecsses.

...

The Algal cellular sub-system is comparable in many ways to the human bloodstream. It is bound within their anatomical structure at a molecular level and works alongside the stnadard genetic and biological processes. The Orkoid algal structure responds to damage in combination with blood clotting and so forth. This means that even large wounds will be covered with a hard, skin-like layer within a few hours of the injury occuring, as the algal cells rapidly replicate to repair the damage.

We found that however serious the injury, if the Orkoid did not die immediately from shock it was unlikely to die from loss of blood or organ trauma. This regenerative proceess is aided by the Orks' crude medical knowledge - whole limbs can be grafted on, organs freely swapped, wounds stapled shut and so forth with only .0023% chance of tissue rejection. The Orkoid's ability to withstand such usually mortal wounds makes them such a fearsome prospect

[note to Fabricator-GEneral: Please have our Imperial Commanders examine the dedication with which we conduct battlefield cleansing tecnhiques. Not matter how mortal a wound looks, a live Ork must be dispatched in a conclusively lethal manner such as beheading and disembowelling.]

General commentary on how and why Orks are so bloody tough and able to recover from serious wounds. Take note of the wound healing "a few hours" after injury, the lack of shock, and the ease of repairing wounds.

Also note the note at the end.. "disemboweling" and "beheading" CAN kill an Ork it seems.. but that to actually kill one you need to deliver what amounts to a pretty brutal wound.

Orks are tough, but let's not get over excited here. What we actually read is not that "disemboweling and beheading CAN kill an Ork it seems", but that it absolutely DOES kill them, without a doubt. Such lethal manners are precisely described to be conclusive. There's no need for more brutality.
And let's be clear, even a wound that is not so critical is clearly shown to incapacitate an Ork so much that finishing it is the easy part of the story.
That's part of the cleansing procedure, not the combat one. Ergo, we're looking at a methodology that makes the sure the monster doesn't get up hours later, ready to pounce again.

[Dabat]

I had actually been looking for some of those for a while, two of them first appeared in older issues of White Dwarf. I haven't really played the game since high school and I never even got the third ed. Bug Codex.

I agree his numbers are mostly way off. And I also agree with you that 40K tries to make itself epic in scale, caring more about story then substance. But the fluff provided is still near terror causing in the scale of what the Bugs are capable of. 20-50 days (depending on when absorbtion actually started and when it was just noticed) to remove all the atmosphere, ices, liquids and biomass of a earth size planet is astounding, not matter how efficiently it is done.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I agree his numbers are mostly way off. And I also agree with you that 40K tries to make itself epic in scale, caring more about story then substance. But the fluff provided is still near terror causing in the scale of what the Bugs are capable of. 20-50 days (depending on when absorbtion actually started and when it was just noticed) to remove all the atmosphere, ices, liquids and biomass of a earth size planet is astounding, not matter how efficiently it is done.

Oh yes it is, that is absolutely certain, but it does not relate to firepower at all. At the same time, they have like an entire swarm taking on a planet, with several scourge stages preparing the world for harvesting, with one of the final stage being that once enough Tyranid biomass has been spread across the whole globe, there are those towering structures that actually act like trees and suck liquids up.

Still, the surface of the world is really considered lost around the 50th and 51th days in that case.
Also, the world was smaller than Earth and its defenses rather light. The PDF are very basic troops.
This means a greater world, as well as more defenses, would dramatically lengthen the process, if not perhaps stop it, somehow, but I'm not sure of that last part.

That's a typical large scale invasion. There's been an incident of the Imperium managing to execute an Exterminatus on a world with a Tyranid fleet around, and still escaped with a couple casualties or something like that, perhaps suggesting a smaller fleet, or a surprise attack, or the fact that the Magos Biologis may have been thinking of civilian and light defense forces, not a fleet of imperial warships.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Now, time for page 3.
There's lost of stuff about Orks that I don't see that much worth commenting. Still, a few bits here and there:

Page 16

Dozens of other Ork Warbosses add their armies to the cause as the crusade gathers momentum.

...

Soon, the emergent Waaagh! begins to span worlds instead of continents. entire native populations are forced into slavery merely to manufacture ammunition for the horde's guns. Crude factory-ships and war hulks are bashed into shape, the better to transport the Ork armies into battle.

Formation of ork WAAGHs. Note the mention of slave labor in factories, as well as "war hulks" and "Factory ships" (the orks have orbital infrastrucutre it seems, of a sort.)

It is rather curious, perhaps even surprising, that the Orks and their slave race(s) can bash the material needed to build war hulks and factory ships.

Page 18

Ork roks are essentially large asteroids hollowed out and fitted with drives, guns, and crew quarters. Though roks are incapable of travelling through the warp, any system containing Orks will quickly accumulate a growing number of roks. This is because Orks "build" them at a prodigious rate, often by breaking off large chunks of space hulk or welding space debris onto meteors. Orks can use Roks as a means of drifting from one world to another within a systme, pulling them in and out of orbit with simple but powerful tractor beams.

Design and purposes of Ork Roks. Basically Ork versions of system defense ships.

This also amazes me. How in hell hollowed out asteroids, no matter the cannons crammed into a natural formation not meant to cope with capital scale guns' recoil, are going to be a threat to most space faring shielded warships? Clearly, when shields would drop, the Rok would be an easy target.
From the same Orks which even Connor seem to be surprised to hear they can have something close to a space shipyard of some kind.
Now, they seem to come with shields, but just how long can such shields work?
JMS made an interesting estimation of what an unshielded Rok can take.

Page 39

They [Meganobz] are characterised by the bulky exoskeletons they wear into battle, which they call mega armour, and by a dogged belief in their own invulnerability.

A suit of mega armour is comprised of extremely thick metal plates welded onto a piston-driven exoskeleton. It incorporates several engines and sub-motors that give the wearer tremendous strength. Each suit of mega armour has to be individually tailored by the tribe's Mek, who makes a great fuss of taking the customer's measurements before hammring togehter whatever he has to hand.

Ork equivalents of Terminators and/or Power armour.

Page 39

Each Meganob weighs at least a ton, for unlike the armourers of the Imperium the Ork Meks prefer quantity over qualit.

Meganobs carry so much metal plating that their only real weakness is their immense bulk. It is not uncommon to see a Meganob's comrades straining to get him back on his feet after a direct hit from enemy ordnance. Such is the resilience of ORk engineering and physiology that the Ork in question will quickly be back in the fray, ready to wreak his bloody revenge.

Power armoured Orks weigh at least one ton, impliing Imperial equivalents are significantly less lighter. Its implied that the armour can withstand ordnance that can knock it down.

I may say that from my point of view, it means the one ton is largely due to excess of armour padding. What it implies, however, is that quantity is favoured over quality, and that's largely because the single tribe's Mek works from what is at hand's reach. And once again, the Mek hammers "togehter whatever he has to hand", which don't talk of supermetal or superalloys that would require high tech foundries to be shaped into tools, weapons and armour.
Wait, that's also Imperial Overlord's point.

If Meganobz are supposed to be a very good match to Dreadnoughts, even if slightly inferior, then it would tell a lot about the strength of a Dreadnought's armour plating.

More likely that the greater thickness of the material helps compensate for its inferior material composition. Ceramite >>>scrap metal.

We dont know if the mateirals ARE inferior. The various sourcecs for 'eavy armour and 'ard boyz tend to referencec it being made from "steel plates" (which helps us about as much as knowing some Russes are made from "conventional steel") or that it is called armour plate and that it is scavanged from defeated enemies. This can say alot, since we dont know where its scavenged from really (they could quite easily strip armor plate off other vehicles and amke it into armor for all we know.)

They still bash those scraped plates of usually alleged super tough material with a good ol' hammer, in order to give the big Ork some nice piston-moved "exosuit"?
There's just that far you can go with steel (plasteel) or the pretense that even a remotely strong creature can manually bend materials such as adamantium and ceramite, WAAGH effect or not.

Page 51

Kannon: These are heavy bore artillery pieces that fire anti-tank shells or frag rounds.

..

Most Lobbas look like big mortars or rokkits, though the Lobbas used by the more primitive tribes sometimes take the form of a catapult or trebuchet.

Kannon again noted as artillery. They're implied to be large diameteR (6 or 8 inch shells, perhaps?) which suggests that you need a pretty powerful gun to stand a chancee of penetrating 40K tank armor.

But which would also be undercut by a reduced range due to the projectile's dimensions. Air drag and all that.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Page four. Still going...

Page 60

The Dakkacannon mounted on Wazdakka's bike is a rapidly-firing monstrosity that has the capacity to stop a tank in its tracks.

I dont know if we should take this literally or not, but if so the recoil would be truly insane. Of course, given Orky ideas of firepower, what they're prone to do to vehicles, and the WAAGH effect this may actually be possible (if an exceptioanl xample of the feat)

More likely, a weapon that can put enough holes in a tank's plating, due to rapid firing, and even damage the tank's tracks.
Where the weapon would be mounted on the bike is hard to tell. Perhaps on top of some arcing structure, above the driver's head.
Would the cannon be placed on the side of the vehicle, it would give it even poorer accuracy, since a side-cannon is not as intuitive as one just above your head, somehow borrowing your own line of sight, and which is compensated by ballistics anyway. It is also bad because of angular momentum, and clearly, a vehicle with two wheels is not the best design to compensate for such offset recoil.
Considering the vehicle anyway, it is fated to have a poor accuracy (worse than in Spiral Zone), despite its firepower. It has to come closer and fast.

Page 60

Gunning his engines, he launched his bike from teh cliff edge and sailed through the Titan's void shields. Though the force fields ignited Wazdakka and his bike, he descended like a fiery comet to smash through the canopy of the Titan's command cockpit.

I would assume this is an exceptional event (see WAAGH effect) protecting the Bike and Wazdakka, since the fact he is set on fire implies that void shields would normally destrtoy any normal matter touching it. (which we've observed from novels, like Guns of Tanith.) Nevermind maintaining any sort of forward momentum or crashing through the Titan's cockpit.

Perhaps not so bizarre. Imperial Overlord points out here and here that penetration of void shields by slow moving objects has already happened, and is obviously going to happen with the terrain a Titan is trampling. Most interesting though is that despite the low enough velocity, the fiery vehicle still manages to break through the Titan's cockpit. Cykeisme confirms such phenomena, but was wrong on the nature of the Gargant's shields, which are power shields, not void shields.
It's the whole issue about War of the Worlds' shielded tripods.
One must understand, then, that the Titan's void shield certainly uses a specific frame of reference to sort out acceptable movements from the threatening ones.
For example, understand how fast the machine is moving, relative to the planet's surface, it won't filter out anything that comes into contact with the shield, at the same speed but in the opposite direction.
Note that we don't know how fast the Ork bike went through the shields. There's a potential certain WAAGH effect involved there, we can't really know, but launching a bike from a cliff is not exactly like driving full speed down an empty motorway, unless the Ork dude jumped from a very large and flat plateau.

Okay starting the Eldar.. ths should be the 3rd edition codex, since it dates 1999...
[...]
Part 2 of the 3rd edition Eldar Codex (1999) Then 4th edition. I may actually cover the cSM codexes after this.
[...]
Page 46

the ammunition [shuriken weapon] is stored as a solid core of plasti-crystal material that is forced up from the magazine by magnetic repuslor. A series of rapid high-energy impulses orginate at the rear of the weapon then move it forward at a terrific speed. These impulses detach a monomolecular slice f the ammunition core and hurl it from the weapon's barrel, while the ammunition core is kept in the line of the firing impulse by the magnetic repulsor.

This allows the weapon to fire up to a hundred rounds of ammunition in a burst of one or two seconds, and each ammunition core is good for ten or ore bursts of fir ebefore it needs replacing. The downside of the firing mechanism is the lack of rifling on the barrel, which drastically reduces its accuracy, keeping the wepaon's effective range below that of standard solid ammunition weapons of similar size.[

1. Good old shuriken weapons. Note the rate of fire of "hundreds of rounds" in a burst of 1-2 seconds. Considering they're good for at least ten bursts (10-20 seconds worht of firing and thousands of rounds). Lack of rifling limits the range, of course, so its probably less than that of autoguns (say 400-500 meters tops?)
2. Its reasonable to assuem that Shuriken weapons have a recoil at least close to what a rifle might have on full auto (hundreds of shots vs 10-15 per second) woudl suggest that individual shots have perhaps 1/10th or 1/20th the momentum "per shot" (assuming between 200 and 800 rounds per second, thats between .3 and .1 kg*m/s of momentum per round respecitviely) but this makes up for it with many more shots, each of them razor sharp (helps penetration) If velocity is hypersonic (like a coilgun/railgun would, say 2 km/s) each disc would have the individual KE of a pistol bullet, more or less. Of course collectively, the KE would match/exceed most assualt rifles.
3. It is worth noting that some sources suggest shuriken weapons are "silent" weapons, but this would mean a subsonic velocity - which would further reducee range and damage. In practice, if they do this they probably go with a "heavier" round so as to retain some letality. Given the fact that they use a solid core of material as ammo (and its just cut off the block) they can quite easily vary the size/weight of an individual round, and can likely tailor the rate of fire as well as velocity. (much like Mass effect or Learyverse rifles, or the spike/slug weapons of the renegade Legion universe.)

1. Aren't lasguns, inherently superior in accuracy to firearms, good at 300 m on a single target, with a few shots, and good at 500 m against packs?
The shuriken gun would more likely have an effective range of 150-250 m tops.
Also a weapon that literally creates monomolecular slices, out of a solid core of plasti-crystal, may not suffer from cutting through air, but will be extremely lightweight, and subject to upward and downward forces if wind blows and if particles of dust are carried away. This is would likely make the weapon's accuracy even poorer.
By the description, it is not a thick projectile with a thin edge. No. Everything is thin about this projectile. It's like firing paper sheets. Only thinner.

2. I don't really see how even a total of 100 monomolecular slices is going to match the mass, thus momentum and KE of a single bullet, even if each slice is a disc that has a radius of 2.5 cm.

3. Since the system is designed to cut a slice, that is, a purely horizontal movement, making the shuriken thicker will only make the edge thicker. Not only without any added energy, the "new" projectile will be slower (hence the silence), but it will be much less potent, and the ROF may suffer of this as well. The silence of the weapon and its even shorter range would make it just good enough to sneak and "backstab" targets.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Page five.

Okay now we get to the Eldar Fusion guns.. some people should be happy now :P This will also finish out the Eldar Codex.
Page 32

They [Fire dragons] carry powerful fusion guns that can reduce an enemy to a cloud of superheated vapour in a second. Though short-ranged, these weapons are capable of turning ven the heaviest battle tanks into piles of molten slag.

Fusion guns have hundreds of megawatts, possibly thousands (depends on the target - some enemies can be quite massive - IE Tyranids - and thus warrant multi-GJ output in a second.) We can conjecture that since they seem to do this in a second (Meltas IIRC require a few seconds) they are much more powerful than meltaguns, although this may be variable (the seconds thing is from 3rd edition IIRC, while earlier suggest they can explosively vaporize a person, which would be much more rapid.) Fusion guns, however, still have greater range and a more focused dischrage than a meltagun, so they can still be considered superior weapon even if comparable in firepower (they can concentrate more energy on a smaller area, over a greater distance.) so even if they're comparable in energy output they're still better weapons over all.

"heaviest battle tanks" may infer super-heavies, meaning they can melt hundreds of tons of mass in an unknown timeframe (hundreds of gigajoules/terajoules) Mind you, I don't think it could be very long in a battle situation (taking minutes to do it would be too dangerous - either the targeted tank or osme other vehicle or soldier would target the Fire Dragon) so we're probably talking seconds.

The power of such a weapon, and meltas in general, is baffling, but once you rationalize it as something that's halfway between a high thermal energy charge and a gun, it kinda makes sense: it's not as powerful as a bomb, and it's not as accurate and ranged as a typical infantry gun.

Now, once again, we're invited to think about such a weapon, capable of firing up to hundreds of gigajoules or low terajoules, despite no evidence that this weapon would be so powerful by such a magnitude, in regards to the Imperium's equivalent.
Terajoules for a short ranged infantry weapon... that does not make much sense. At all.

Of course, why believe that while the tank is hit from one side, would be entirely turned into slag? How would the energy even manage to be distributed in such a way, evenly, in such a short amount of time?
The tank would need to be doused in energy from all sides, or from an internal source, not shot with a single more or less direct fire weapon.
You don't even need to melt the vehicle's whole bulk, but merely affect a large area.
The weapon obviously needs a sort of splash effect, to cover most of the tank's surface area. Then the affected surface will melt under the weapon's firepower.

Take the Stormsword. It has 21 cm of armour on the average.
Its dimensions are:

Code: Select all

Length:	13.5m
Width: 	8.4m
Height:	5.85m 

Based on this awesome picture, the "turret" (actually a fixed cabin) is roughly 1/3 of the vehicle's height.
I'm going to treat it as a brick shaped vehicle, without the cabin's height. It will only remove the surface of the cabin's sides, but this is largely compensated for the fact that the vehicle has notches and is obviously not brick shaped.
So this brick of a vehicle will be 3.9 meters high.

Now, as you can see on the image presented above, or on this equally fantastic one, it's rather obvious that there's not 21 cm of armour everywhere. Take the size of the guy's head. A head, with a helmet, is going to be 28 cm wide, more or less, so that works rather well as a benchmark (even if figurines mess up scales a bit). You can see that the plating around the tracks can't be that thick, yet it's a very exposed surface.

But still, if we assume the fusion gun's bolt hit both the flank and topside of the brick, here's the volume we'd get if we unwrapped those two adjacent surfaces, and treated them like a flat surface:

(height + width) x length = 166.05 m².

Get those 21 cm of armour, and that's a total of 2.75 m³ of armour to melt, which is quite more than enough to consider the tank to be a pile of molten slag.

HoF of iron is 247.29 e3 J/kg, and SHC is 450 J/kg/K.
Density is 7874 kg/m³.
Starting at 273 K, the melting point being 1811 K, we get a total energy of:

E = 247.29 e3 x 7.874 e3 + 450 x 7.874 e3 x 1.538 e3
E = 7.396 e9 J.

Then what pushes the figure up is the composition of armour.

When two of the largest sides, including THE largest surface, are being completely melted, I think it's relatively fair to consider your tank screwed and time to kindly call it a piece of waxed scrap, or a pile of molten slag.
And that's not considering the possibily of the weapon merely affecting the most of the topside and a bit of the flank. It would clearly screw the whole tank anyway, but require even less energy.

Okay I decided to handle the Necron Codex (4th edition I believe).. too lazy to go dig it up and look. I'm sure this will be liked. it does have some interesting material and implications. Anyhow, here we go..

Page 2

Even their [Necron] most basic weaponry can strip a man to his constituent atoms in a second.

Generally speaking, this is what we think of when we think of Gauss weapons, and we see it depicted that way in many cases (most notably Caves of Ice). Small nitpick being is that Gauss weapons seem to have the problems with most sci fi weapons - their capabilities or effects are not neccesarily consistent (Much like TLs can behave like beams or projectiles interchangably, or phasers exhibit insanely bizarre effects.) In the case of the Gauss weaponry, its that while they can basically distintegrate a person (or even an Ork, a more massive entity) rapidly, they don't always do this. Hell, even in this very Codex we don't see that effect. Sometimes you see them only disintegrate parts. Or sometimes they'll just drill holes in things (like tanks) when they should spread out and envelop (like they need to do with people). It just drives me nuts.

For now, I just put it up to variable power settings/effects. Sorta like the way some science fictiony weapons have needle beams or widebeams or whtaver (like phasers or the Delameters from Lensman). The reason they dont neccesarily use the "distingertae entire body rapidly" setting may be for vairous reasons (ammo, cooling, whatever.)

Or because what is basic here is not the caliber, say the yield, but the technology. Gauss weapons are just too common within Necron ranks. So it does not refer to the weakest infantry gun, but to what this kind of weapon can do at most.

Note, by the way, that all other references that describe the time needed for the Gauss weapons to work on their target refer to seconds.

Page 3

..the first red rays of the morning sun reflecting from hundreds of staring skulls.

...

Tuirrets swiveling to the side, the column of tanks unleashed salvo upon salvo into the steadily advancing Necrons. His guardsmen formed up, running into position and opening fire. Let them taste the might of the Cadian 23rd, thought Janssen, his partched lips twisting into a snarl. Raising his macrobinoculars, he focused on a crater of vitrified sand scattered with Necron remains . Pieces of broken machinery and shining debris were crawling back togehter, the shattered and blackened Necrons rising as they grew whole again.

....

Janssen's breath caught as what had been merely a puddle of molten metal and fizzing sparks behind it flowed smoothly back into shape, a shining skeleotn once more.[

The Cadian regiment fires its lasguns as well as tanks, appearing to partly melt the hundreds of Necron warriors as well as the surrounding sand in a very short barrage (seconds at most). A Cadian regiment runs 4000-8000 troops. As a rule, I'm assuming the tanks made the crater and the lasguns melted the sand/Necrons (the tanks fired first after all, andthe lasguns mopped up).

Assuming each Necron masses around oh 60 kilos, iron composition, and maybe 10% of that mass was actually melted (the rest blown apart) and a minimum of 200 necrons about 1200 kg was melted. Assuming each Necron is about .5 meters in width and that the hundreds more or less formed a perfect square (14-15 ranks of 14-15 each) will bea n area 7-8 meters wide on each side. A crater, however, is more hemispherical so we might guess at a 10-15 m diameter crater (either more necrons, or slightly greater spacing) and the ground was melted to roughly a few inches depth, around 20 tons of sand would be melted.

Roughly you can assume 40-50 Gigajoules to do the melting overall, minimum (20 tons x ~2 mj per kg for melting the sand, 1200 x 1.2 MJ/kg for the Necrons - the latter contributes very little overall.) A 10-15 meter diameter crater needs 2-3 GJ worth of TNT to create (500-800 kg.) Its not likely that the Cadians had more than a few dozen tanks (say a company) as attached forces. Assuming 2-3 salvos from ~30 tanks (say about 100 rounds) you get each round having at least 5-8 kg of TNT per round. Likely they are using high explosive rounds of some kind, so this makes sense.

Assuming 10 seconds of sustained fire for 8000 men, you get a sustaned output of around 625 kilowatts. Its worth noting, however, this ignores ineffieciences, assumes 100% accuracy, and that Necrons aren't iron, so the actual output would be several megawatts per lasgun (say 50% accuracy and several times increase due to ineffieciency.. easily 2-3 MW per lasgun)

Its also worth noting the cadians fired long before the Necrons did. Either the Necrons were for some reason holding back (for effect perhaps, although usually they're more practical than this) or their guns were much shorter ranged than the Cadian lasweapons. We dont know the definite range, but it was long enough the commander had to use magnoculars to observe the results. (hundreds of meters likely.)

First and foremost, I'm rather curious as to what bit of text can be used as evidence for Connor to assume a "10-15 m diameter crater."

I'd tend to agree that it's the lasguns that vitrified the sand and the Necrons. The glassing would probably be gouts of metal and sand solidifying into particles. We'd speak of a glass coating of the crater's surface here, but then, due to dispersal, you would not need to directly glass the whole crater's surface, just poke holes. Mind you, there were so many soldiers firing then that it would be easily achieved.

Now, not all the men from the Cadian 23rd could fire at the same time, unless they were all standing side by side, with a maximum of two or three lines of riflemen. But if this was the case, the chances of shots landing on the same zone, enough to melt the whole sand surface, would be extremely low, unless the Cadian troopers had a wide crescent shaped formation that poured fire on tighter Necron formations, simulating a sort of light-through-lens focus effect.

That said, Connor considers that the crater's surface would be melted down to a few inches deep, which is at least two. Motto: always assume considerable and absolute surface glassing when one speaks of a glassed object.

This also completely misses an important point: The Necrons were standing at a noticeable distance from the Cadian forces, so much that Janssen used binoculars.
Guess what? If the lasguns did the glassing, they could only directly glass the surface of the crater they could hit. So basically, considering the distance, this both excludes:

- The bottom of the crater.
- The side facing the Cadians but masked by the opposite side.
- The totality of said opposide side of the crater, facing the Necrons.

So, to sum up, Connor:

- Assumes a 10-15 meters wide crater.
- Assumes complete glassing of the surface that was hit by weapon fire.
- Assumes that all the surface of the crater was hit by weapon fire, which with non-ballistic laser weapons is simply impossible.
- Assumes a glassing of the sand down to a few inches, at least two.

Pretty much all extrapolated figures will therefore be in excess of what they should be.

Also: "Assuming 10 seconds of sustained fire for 8000 men, you get a sustaned output of around 625 kilowatts."
Pardon?

Page 3

Immense monoliths began to crest the ridge, their ponderous advance as silent as the metallic warriors before them. Several bulky Necron skimmers swept from behind another dune, swivelling arcane cannon in the direction of his armoured support. Janssen began to sweat, watching helplessly as the tremendous forces exerted by their bizarre weapons burrowed through the armour of the tanks, leaving gaping holes before the armored behemoths detonated.

...

As one, the Necron warirors raised their weapons, green hellfire crackling within the chambers of their guns. They fired without breaking step. All around him Janssen's men writhed and screamed as their armour was stripped away and their flesh flayed from their bones, exposing their viscera before disintegrating completely. Ahead, his adjutant was eviscerated by one of the lethal fields, clucthing the bloody ruin of his torso and screaming as an unlearthly wind whipped sand across his raw flesh.

Necrons fire back, and the results. Note that the tanks merely get holes in them before blowing up (Their munitions and/or fuel cooked off somehow. Gauss weapons may have some thermal component to them.) and that the adjutant was still largely intact despite having his torso at least partly flayed. It goes without saying no armour did much to hlep.

That tanks merely get holes in them before blowing up indicates nothing. It reinforces the idea that the Necron weapons disintegrate matter, and I'd wager that they do so along according to a volume defined by the bore of the massive Necrons' guns, unless the weapon's field expands. Which would fail to indicate anything because we don't know how the bonds are broken, and the descriptions reek of technobabble.
Also, I'd like to know how the adjudant being "eviscerated by one of the lethal fields, clutching the bloody ruin of his torso and screaming, as an unlearthly wind whipped sand across his raw flesh", rhymes with Connor's "largely intact".

[Mr. Oragahn]

Sixth page, still Necrons and else...

Page 52

...a massive detonation rocked the Black Templar Land Raider, tilting its eighty-ton bulk up on one track. The mighty vehicle slammed back down, shattering the stone road of the triumphal way.

A bit of a variance on Land Raider mass, compared to the IA books, not drastic or unreasonable. (Mass wcan change with role and configuration). Heavy gauss weapon had enough momentum/force to knock the Land Raider around, though.. and Land Raider itself was not noticably damaged by the impact.

I'm not sure "knocking around" is that appropriate for what mounts to nothing more than the balance of the vehicle being shortly shifted onto one track, while the other is raised above the floor over an unknown height.

Page 54

The Design of a Gauss weapon with all its parameters kept dynamic to achieve maximum efficiency is a mathematical impssibility, as proved by Magos Barrous during the Calculometry Schism. The greatest problem encountered in Gauss weapon design is devising a means to safely generate and release the power of the discharge, which runs in the multi-megawatt range. Because the power required is extremely high, even microscopic imperfections in design will generate massive energy losses.

If a mechanical trigger is used to deliver the pulse, the moment the firing mechansims come into contact, microscopic irregularities in the material will dissipate so much energy as to be completely vapourised. When the trigger closes, these vapourised surfaces and the molten metal beneath them weld together, and the trigger is thus ruined. How the weapons employed by the Necrons overcome this problem is unknown.

Assuming firing difficulties can be overcome, the final effect will be to produce a beam capable of stripping a target down to its constitutent atoms extremely rapidly. Since high-energy power supplies are extremely dangerous and difficult to maintain, it follows that one would want to maximise effiicency in order to obtain the best possible results with the least possible energy.

This also preserves the components of the weapon since most energy losses are typically dissipated as damaging heat or destructive back currents, such as encountered by plasma weapons.

Taken at face value this implies that Imperial weapons are below "multi-megawatt" outputs, but one must note we're not told how many megawatts that Necron weapons actually consume - its just more than human weapons do. Strict/literal interpretation of this quote is also hampered by the fact we have a huge pile of evidence of weapons that are most distinctly ABOVE multi-megawatt - lascannon, meltaguns, and plasma guns.

Not necessarily. Even if you use 1-2 gigajoules, with a weapon achieving its effect over seconds, you obtain a power below the gigawatt range.
I also observe that "high-energy power supplies are extremely dangerous and difficult to maintain". Also, plasma weapons are known for issues such as "damaging heat" and "destructive back currents".

Page 57

No Necron ship has ever been witnessed translating to or from Warp Space. On repeated occasions, though, Necron vessels have appeared well within maximum sensory range without any approach being detected. During the attack on Horloth it was reported that on first sighting the Necron fleet was noticeably decelerating, which raises the possibility that whatever their means of propulsion it is so fast that when moving at full speed their vessels are undetectable. The fact that they slow down to fight would indicate that even they find it impossible to perform fine manoeuvres or accurately target enemies while travelling at full speed.

Some implied limitations about Necron stealth and targeting capabilities. Its probably not shocking they are detectable when accelerating or slowing down, since that would involve doing work (and expending energy), while travelling at a given speed would not neccesarily do so.

So even the mighty Necrons' ships can't come in full speed and hit their targets squarely?

Page 57

Where our own ships rely on void shields for defence, Necron ships use a combination of stealth and adaptability. Their hulls cloak all internal energy emissions and prevent accurate tracking; it is only when they change course or speed, or when they fire weapons that they can be scanned reliably. Until then, Necron ships apepar as sensorary phantoms. PRactically, though, this will often have to suffice for targeting purposes. It should be noted that, whilst Necron ships are both fast and agile, they are not capable of the sudden changes in direction available to Eldar craft, so leading fire is preferrable.

Necron defenses. Basically they emit no detectable signatures save from engines or weapons (which makes sense.) They do not seem to use active sensing then as a mans of detection (as this would be mentioned)l. They are not truly "invisible" just very hard to detect.

It is also implied that Necron ships are somewhat less agile compared ot Eldar vessels.

Page 57

Wht would be crippling blows to an Imperial Cruiser often fails to superficially damage a Necron ship. We have no certain evidence why, as the classes we have identified are not massive enough to support armour fo the requisite thickness.

...

We do know that they have impressive automated repair capabilities, whcih can seemingly repair virtually any damage in minutes. This technology is not invincible, however, and when activated the stealth features of Necron ship huulls is instantly compromised, levavng them far more vulnerable to attack.

Page 57

Necron weapon systems all utilised energy projection.

...

It hs been postulated that the energy is extra-dimesnional in origin. Regardless of its source, it is projected very accurately using a ranging particle beam at longer distancese. In some cases the discharges have been seen to pass through a ship's shields leaving them undamaged.

Page 57

most common of these is the use of swarms of small "scarab" robots to infest the hulls of target vessels before emitting a singal that disrupts mechanical communication an dcontrol functions within the sectors infected.

Another common Necron weapon involves the sudden discharge of stored solar energy form all parts of the hull, which inflicts damage on all ships in proximity. The blast is powerful enough to overload the shields of any Escort in the Imperial Fleet, an the effect of several overlapping bursts can be dangerous to Capital ships as well.

...

Once shields are down, raiding parties will commonly attack several decks simultaneously.

Other Necron combat tactics. The Scarabs are their equivalent of torpedoes, obviously, but have disabling funciton less than destructive. The ability to discharge "stored solar energy" seems a bit ofdd, since sunlight isnt all that strong in space (See TIE fighter problem). Unless they go close to a sun. The fact they cna harm multiple escorts suggests an output well into the TT range, minimum.

Oh, and boarding parties.

Imperial Cruisers are tough ships. They're supposed to be able to withstand their own firepower, if at least for one salvo. Shields can come back online, layer after layer, if the ship has not withstood too much damage.
The firepower figure that often surfaces is the (low estimate) 600 GT bomb-slug (although it's the size of a bus).
One of such solar blasts can take care of the shields of an escort ship, and several overlapping bursts can threaten capital ships.

Considering the firepower figure mentionned, and the omnidirectional nature of the burst, means that we're obviously going to look at high teratons here (based on the firepower figure above).
But even 1 TT is still 4.184 e21 J.

I read elsewhere that the consensus for Imperial ship sizes is "escorts 0.5km, cruisers 3km, and battleships 6km in length."

Okay, so say that the Necron's biggest ship, the Necron Cairn Class Tombship, is 10 km long. It's almost flat.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Ne ... mbship.gif
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Cairn.jpg
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:Cairn2.jpg

Now let's use the proportions below to get a top down surface area:

• • • 

We get a crescent and a trapezoid.
The crescent is defined by a small disc almost entirely substrated to the area of the greater disc.
I used an arbitrary length of 100 units.
Saying this should be equal to 10 km will make calcs easiers.

So the diameter of the small disc is 4350 m, for a surface area of 1.4862 e7 m². The greater disc is 8700 m wide, for a SA of 5.9447 e7 m².
The SA of the greater disc minus the smaller one is 4.4585 e7 m².
The sloped side of the remaining isoceles trapezoid is 22.3 units long, so its surface area is 4.6652 e6 m².

Roughly, the surface area of the ship, top down, is 49.2502 e6 m².
Rounding this up should account for all the little details here and there. So say 5 e7 m².
Only one side of the ship can be exposed at a given time.

Our sun has a photosphere intensity of 6.318 e7 W/m².

That's a total of 31.59 e7 W.

The ship would need to sit on the photosphere of our sun for 13,244,697,689,142 seconds. In a clearer way, that's 3,679,082,691 hours, 153,295,112 days, or 419,699 years.

Methinks taking the sayings of such books at face value shall be considered unwise, unless the ship is really playing the long game here. But in general, I got the impression that when the Necrons are not on the move, they rather stay dormant on and in planets, than drifting in systems (especially since a great number of them have been visited).

Back to 3rd edition... Battlezone: Cityfight (2001).. the predecessor to "Cities of Death" (which I'll probably cover next, just to be consistent.)

Page 3

"I'd put that helmet back on, sir," advised Marnok, "Lot of sniper activity round here."

Cadian Helmet implied to stop sniper fire. Presumably this includes bolter rounds, but could safely be ifnerred to mean normal slugs too (possibly including full power rounds, as those would be the kind typically used in an actual sniper rifle. But "sniper" may just also mean "any guy with a gun" too.. so its just a possibility.)

Or just that the helmet offers a good enough protection, but nothing says it's perfect.

Page 3

... Marnok could see they were less than a hundred metres from their objective.

...
Suddenly a trio of missiles speared from the building, trailing bright contrails and impacting on the tank's turret with an almighty clang. The missiles corkscrewed wildly away from the tank, exploding high above it and Marnok smiled grimly as he realised the traitors had made a fatal error. They'd obviously been waiting for the tanks to close to ensure their weapons hit, but now the range was too short and the missile's war-spirits didn't have time to arm themselves.

Missile launchers have a range of at least 100 metres, implied to be quite a bit longer than that as well (100m being "short range", and in fact under the "minimum" arming range. If we compare it to a modern anti tank missile launcher like the Javelin it implies max range could be several kilometers.). Also note the mention of "War spirits" - so these are computer guided munitions (which tends to suggest they're a bit more than the RPG-like "Tread Fethers" in the Ghosts novels)

Also worth noting, the missiles ricochet off the tank armour harmlessly (no detonation) - comparing to modern tank missiles (~10 kg missile/warhead and 200 m/s velocity we're talking a momentum of a few thousand kg*m/s per missile easily against the turret without harm. Mind you the KE wouldn't be all that much (unlike any actual gun round)

100 meters may be minimal, but the us ... ing points and here for Heat of fusion

[/quote]

This makes the laspistol quite powerful.

However, I totally dispute the idea that the beam would vapourize a 2-3 cm wide cylinder of brick, with the brick wall itself being 10 cm thick.
We're talking about a quick shot, and therefore the power must be high to achieve that effect. But Connor doesn't consider blast effects at all.
To me, such a few centimeters wide neat hole is not consistent with a sudden vapourization of a part of the wall brick. What I consider to be more realistic is the initial part of the beam vapourizing a smaller quantity of the brick, with the resulting surface (mini-crater) blast cracking and blowing the rest away, and this going on extremely fast as long as the beam continues to hit matter ever further through the wall, so that whatever remains of the beam can reach its target.

Besides, too much vapourization, especially in such close quarters, is ought to endanger the shooter as much as the target: a neat tunnel through the wall would be all the more pressure put onto the vapourized mass of brick, that would shoot both ways, from either side of the wall, and we know from other descriptions in that book that men in such combat situations can be found to carry a very minimal level of protection (other references on the SDN page, notably the one about the frag mine).

Also, for a frame of reference:

Wikipedia: Sniper equipment. According to the Illustrated Manual of Sniper Skills, by Mark Spicer, it is said:

The standard 7.62mm NATO round, for example, when fired at a range of 220 yards, will penetrate:

• Three inches of concrete.
• Ten inches of loose sand.
• Fifty inches of wooden board.
• Single stack brickwork.

220 yards = 201.168 m. If you take the table from the wikipedia page, the energy figures were:

Code: Select all

Range:   0m -> Energy (J): 3,698 J
Range: 100m -> Energy (J): 3,177 J
Range: 200m -> Energy (J): 2,712 J

The loss of energy is important, especially over the first 100 meters.

Although a laser bolt and a bullet differ in mechanics, it gives a perspective on the energies required to blast through a brick wall or concrete, and we must question the accuracy of a figure that gives between "910 kilojoules and 2 megajoules" to a laspistol.

While a couple thousand joules would be very impressive for a laspistol, there's no need to reach for the hundreds or thousands of KJ.

Of course if we want to be really conservative we refer to the trusty Atomic Rockets sidearms page

I'm assuming a weapon designed to penetrate ~30cm in soft body tissue. This gives about 15cm in bone or plastic, 5cm in brick or concrete, or 2.5cm in steel or most ceramics. Synthetics won't be very good at stopping energy weapons, even tough ones like kevlar, but you might be able to find a ceramic that could stop a laser beam with a centimeter's thickness or so.

With the 10cm figure I assume above, it would be at least 2 kilojoules for a laspistol. I say "at least" because the diameter of lasguns even the smallest (half a centimeter as per "Only in Death") is far larger than the maximum efficiency specified in Atomic rockets, so it could easily be many times (say an order of magnitude) or greater - nevermind its designed to penetrate and be lethal (we could assume at least another kilojoule if not several once you factor in an armored body, so it more liekly could be called 3-4 kilojoules minimum, perhaps five depending on the type of armor.)

Nonetheless, this represents a nice range of values for the humble laspistol, and it doesn't neccesarily factor in inefficiencies or setting either. And Lasguns would be considerably more powerful (3-6x at least if we go by modern assualt rifles/battle rifles vs modern pistols)

My assumptions would seem to be verified by the article on the Atomic Rockets page.
Connor calls that kind of figure conservative. I call that accurate. Anything ten times higher would be a high end.
Above that, it's not serious anymore.







Stuff about troop and fleet numbers on page 6 and 7. I didn't wade through that stuff much.

[Jedi Master Spock]

For the shuriken, we'd expect a monomolecular disk to be in the range of nanograms to tens of nanograms. With a cross-section of less than a billionth of a square meter, I would not expect to be able to easily hear any associated sonic boom - so much for them being necessarily subsonic - or even see the disks. They would, in fact, need a very high linear and/or rotational velocity to be effective. A subsonic monomolecular disk several centimeters across might reach all the way into the mJ range - that's millijoule (small m), not megajoule (big M), which won't get you as deep of a paper cut as you'll want.

I would actually want these to be high hypersonic or even low-relativistic projectiles spinning at speeds that threaten to tear them apart.