Feds+Imps vs Imperium of Man

[sonofccn]

Since the board has been a little empty recently I thought I might try and help spice things up.

Setting: Via an act of Q numerous wormholes have sprung up linking the alpha quadrent to the Star Wars Galatic Empire and both to the Imperium of Man from WH40k. After inital first contact between the three politcal bodies the Imperium declares war on both and invades. United against a common foe the Federation and Empire ally togather.

The combatents:
The federation as it was shortly after the events of Nemeis

The Galatic Empire shortly before the events in ANH( so they have the DS1)

Imperium of Man at what ever time is considered thier height.

Rules: No one shot cobbled togather tech. Only proven technolagy(regardless if we only see it once) and more empathes on provable assertains then "If I had that technolagy I would do-"

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Actually the GE wouldn't have DS1 since it becomes ready during ANH. I'm not that familiar with 40k, but from what my friends who do play say about it and the back story it seem that their tech isn't good, and I have no idea about the size of their forces so extra info on their capabilities would be welcomed.

[sonofccn]

Well I'm far from an expert on 40k, infact nearly the opposite. I just kinda enjoyed the gritty gothic space opera of it all. Anywho for general information I found this http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page to be informative.

Actually the GE wouldn't have DS1 since it becomes ready during ANH.

In my head at least I meant days before ANH so the DS1 would soon be up and running, plus if an armada of enemy ships swarmed into your space, wouldn't you speed up your doomsday weapon?:)

and I have no idea about the size of their forces so extra info on their capabilities would be welcomed.

I don't know thier exact numbers, but atleast according to this sitehttp://uk.games-workshop.com/imperialguard/who%2Dare/ the imperial guard( ie the cannon fodder of the IOA) numbers in the billions. Not sure if I believe that or not since I'm just a novice on the topic, I'm kinda hoping real experts on the subject show up, but if true that should be an impressive force.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Like many long-running game genres, there are some fluff/game mechanics issues in WH40K. WH40K is centered around the collectable miniatures; like many franchises where the writing is secondary, authors are many, and science is an afterthought, there exists no small amount of inconsistency to sort through.

A few small isolated examples have been used extensively by VS debaters, of course. A quick read of old and recent SB.com threads will give you all sorts of figures, but I wouldn't count on them too heavily.

I'm honestly unsure of when the "height" of the IoM would really be. I think the best time to set this crossover in would be 40,000, as that's the best known of any era.

I believe the first question to settle are those of fleet sizes and speeds, although the political situation could also require some elucidation. I recommend starting with the Battlefleet Gothic rules, which are available for free download from Games Workshop.

Fluff indicates a very definite ship density of one fleet of 50-75 warships per 200x200x200 light year region of settled space. A typical warship size is 3 km long, although from the illustrations I've seen, these are generally bulkier than Fed or Imperial ships of similar length. In general, that seems to be the sort of unit the IoM will mobilize for conflict; the IoM is not free to make massive redeployments.

Technologically, I'm inclined to say it would be most logical to say that the plasma reactors seen in WH40K are, in fact, fusion reactors.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

If the IoM fleet is significantly inferior then it really wouldn't matter if they had 100 trillion badass commandos. In order to win a large scale conflict involving space ships then naval superiority is a necessity. Since the purpose of WH:40k is to pla ground battles, their navy may have been neglected. The Empire seems to have a decent army, with substandard weapons, and a decent navy, but they focus on super weapons like the Death Star. The UFP is big on having a strong navy for exploration and more recently defense, and tends to neglect its army (though they do have pretty kick-ass weapons and pocket nuc mortars).

By a few years after Nemesis, the UFP should be back up to full strength, or close to it at least in terms of ships. Photon torpedos and Quantum torpedos are way more powerful than nuclear weapons (is that what IoM uses?) so even if the 40k ships are bigger they probably aren't as fast of powerful.

[GStone]

I'd say they'd split their forces: the Feds would go after the ships, while they're in space and the Empire goes after the ground forces by flying their ships down into the the atmo and bombard the ones that have gotten to the ground on planets, sending TIEs out to check for possible survivors. The Feds ships are far nimbler than the IoM counterparts. Wearing down their shields is their best option to get to their engines and engine rooms.

[l33telboi]

Admittedly, i too know next to nothing about WH40K, but i've read through enough vs. debates that i think i can shed some light on a few things.

The IOM might look like they are using low tech, yes, but this in no way translates to the effectiveness. Almost all calcs i've seen are pretty much ludicrously high, with ships rivalling and sometimes surpassing even the ICS SW ships in terms of firepower.

As for numbers, i'm unsure, but i do believe that i read somewhere that each of the Space Marine Chapters have about a million soldiers (these are the extremely heavy duty soldiers.) So i'd say the billion number from the common soldiers is way too low. Heck, even just a billion of them on planets that are often fought over seems a bit too little.

What the IOM lacks is proper interstallar communication and travel speeds though. Meaning that the SW Imperials could easily outmanouver the IOM and in that way, strike at enemy positions at their own leasure, untill the entire IOM starts collapsing from the strain of loosing planets.

The Federations role in this would be quite limited if they don't get hyperdrive though, as the IOM at their height controlled the entire galaxy, even in the current era, they still own the majority of it. Warp drive just wouldn't be fast enough.

Oh, and i realize now that most of what i've said translates to the current power of the IOM. They have technologically regressed quite alot since the Dark Age of Technology. And their numbers have shrunk quite extensively since the horus herecy and the defection of a large number of Space Marine Chapters and IOM assets.

I think i'd give this to the IOM even in their current era, so putting them at their height would be extreme overkill. Though like i said, i'm no expert on the matter, so i could easily be wrong.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Actually, what I've read is that there are a roughly a thousand chapters... each of which has roughly a thousand combat capable Space Marines, for roughly a million on the whole. The Guard is, of course, much larger.

In the time of the Horus Heresy, there were twenty legions, about half of which went with Horus. Each legion was 10,000 strong to judge by the Black Legion, meaning that the original strength of Space Marines, pre-Heresy, was 200,000 strong rather than the million it is in the "modern" era of WH40K. While the Empire has regressed technologically, it has actuallly continued to grow its forces, and I would suggest that it is in some ways at its "height" now.

Mark my words, however, with respect to ships: While WH40K is not going to be as strong as those high-end calcs if you require it to rigorously abide by science, it's not going to be a pushover in brute force terms. Even if WH40K cruisers are giant wallowing pigs, which I'm not yet entirely convinced of, they are big tough giant wallowing pigs with very massive reactors for their size.

The fluff descriptions, IMO, clearly indicate that these are fusion users - however, a cruiser has a fusion engine that's roughly the size of an entire Star Destroyer.

WH40K torpedos - while they may not be as efficient as photon torpedos or even proton torpedos - are close to the size of small starships. One WH40K torpedo or boarding boat is on the order of the size of smaller Birds of Prey in Star Trek.

The IoM's main disadvantage isn't going to be power or numbers... it's going to be organization. Similarly, the Federation-Empire's main disadvantage is going to be cooperation. The two are not very compatible entities politically.

[l33telboi]

Actually, what I've read is that there are a roughly a thousand chapters... each of which has roughly a thousand combat capable Space Marines, for roughly a million on the whole. The Guard is, of course, much larger.

Yepp, i got the numbers mixed up, had to check to make sure. It's about a million Marines in total, not per chapter. Like i said, all i know about the IOM is what little i remember from vs debates. (Which apparently isn't a whole damn lot.)

WH40K torpedos - while they may not be as efficient as photon torpedos or even proton torpedos - are close to the size of small starships. One WH40K torpedo or boarding boat is on the order of the size of smaller Birds of Prey in Star Trek.

I actually had no idea that ships and missiles were this big in the WH4K-verse.

All i remember is some quote about a missile blowing up a small continent. And something about plumes of fires spreading across the surface of planets that were being bombed. The plume part had been interpreted in such a way that the fireball had actually reached such a height that it was flattened by the lack of oxegyn or somesuch, the details are a bit fuzzy on that part.

There was actually just recently a thread made about WH40K tech on SB.com, should be interesting to see what people bring up.

[GStone]

When the IoM were brought up at strek-v-swars, the only torp I remember them having was the one they used to lauch boarding parties in for taking over other ships. I think that was the IoM.

And how the hell do you have a technolgical regression in war time?

[sonofccn]

And how the hell do you have a technolgical regression in war time?

Assuming your refering to the Imperium of man, its because(IIRC) that the Imperium was built upon the ashes of a far greater human civlisation that was nearly destroyed by choas or warp demons or something. Anybody who understood the tech more or less died out and the survivers were left with rements of thier technoalagy. Imperium "scientiest" have far more in common with mediveal preists then anything else and seem more intersted in keeping thier own power base then trying to expand mans knowledge. So in essence all the imperium does is copy the blueprints left in data moduels, and baring minior tweaks , never messes with it. Should the blueprints be lost, the tech more or less becomes lost because no one really understands how it all works.

Similarly, the Federation-Empire's main disadvantage is going to be cooperation. The two are not very compatible entities politically.

True feds and imps have almost nothing in common. Hopefully the threat of being annexed or vaporised will keep them in a more open mind about friends and enemies.

[Dragoon]

The thing that the Imperium has going for it on the ground is the fact that Space Marines are super-humans, who are nigh invincible to normal human beings. THey have something like two hearts, three spleens, an extra lung...They can also take a alot of damage while dishing it out. Plus they're religious fanatics, who will never, ever run in fear. Ever. Luckily for the Federation, that's not too much of a problem seeing as none of that will help you if you're getting vaporized.

Their tanks, etc. are also pretty damn effective. And then they have the Titans. Freaking huge walking, terror machines that carry as much firepower as a Star Desroyer, if not more.

Question: Do any of the other 40k races get involved?

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

"Space Marines are super-humans, who are nigh invincible to normal human beings. THey have something like two hearts, three spleens, an extra lung...They can also take a alot of damage while dishing it out."

Sounds like they share quite a bit in common with Klingons, but hopefully not the ridiculous "let's use knives" attitude.

[Dragoon]

"Space Marines are super-humans, who are nigh invincible to normal human beings. THey have something like two hearts, three spleens, an extra lung...They can also take a alot of damage while dishing it out."

Sounds like they share quite a bit in common with Klingons, but hopefully not the ridiculous "let's use knives" attitude.

Some of them like using power weapons (edged or bludgeoning weapons such as swords, axes, halberds, etc that can generate some sort of power field, thus allowing them to cut through armor more easily) or power fists (essentially the same thing, but a giant honking mechanical glove that increases your hitting strength. Heavy and slow though.) or chain swords. They are also issued combat knives.

However, the vast majority use bolters (Which fire .75 caliber armor piercing, explosive shells at a high rate of fire) or heavier weapons, such as a heavy bolters (Which is a more rapid firing, heavier caliber version of the hand-held) or lascannons, autocannons, rocket launchers and other such things.

Did I mention they were about 7-8 feet tall and have the strength to go with it?

[sonofccn]

Question: Do any of the other 40k races get involved?

No. Just the Imperium of Man.