Resistence is futile!(and other invasions stories)

[sonofccn]

torpedos are guided (well atleast some of them), there are also other variants

Interesting. What are the other variants? Are we talking different warheads or different capabilities all together.

and torpedos are fired in voleys (aka more than 40k point defence guns can destroy),

Is there any rough estimate on how many per volley?

I don't see why something hitting ships that fight at 0.75c, won't hit a borg cube, that never realy demostrated any significant evasive manouvers beyond "run into the enemy at a straight line"

To dodge a non tracking fire and forget torpedo, which at least some are, a slight course change between the point of fire and impact is all that is required. The Borg could also simply jump to warp, a lot more stable and safer then IOM FTL, to dodge the projectiles if they had too. As for as actual Borg maneuvering I'll have to dig through my Borg collection. That could take a day or two.

[Sift Green]

It should be noted that the Borg have always been defeated through creativity, instead of sheer military might, as their assimilation and adaptation abilities let them know everything about there enemies weapons, tactics, and other things. I could picture them winning a war against the Imperium of Man, simply because they lack the technological creativity to bypass the Borg's adaptation.

In fact, the only Warhammer 40k race I see giving the Borg a hard time would be the Orks, because Ork technology only works out of Orkish belief, making it difficult to assimilate and learn about Ork technology.

(Edited for spelling error)

[Enosh]

Interesting. What are the other variants? Are we talking different warheads or different capabilities all together.

fun stuff, like short range torpedos, have a shorter range but are faster, melta torpedos that are baiscly anti personel torpedos which first melt through the hull and the basicly fill the inside of a ship with a "sea of fire", the ever popular vortex torpedos (the rarest) which basicly throw something into the warp, then we have seeker torpedos, which folow a target by themslef and are quite rare (guided torbedos are like the name says, guided), bombard torpedos which aperantly have a special designed charge that projects all the power outwards on to the surface, since they have to flatten something, not penetrate like the ship-ship torpedos

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... ndices.pdf

page 157

Is there any rough estimate on how many per volley?

I have no idea

To dodge a non tracking fire and forget torpedo, which at least some are, a slight course change between the point of fire and impact is all that is required. The Borg could also simply jump to warp, a lot more stable and safer then IOM FTL, to dodge the projectiles if they had too. As for as actual Borg maneuvering I'll have to dig through my Borg collection. That could take a day or two.

except they have never done the "jump to warp" thing, even when fired upon by the federation, like in First contact, why didn't they just do a micro jump after all the ships started to fire at them (after picard gave everyone their "weak spot") it's not like they didn't have time? hell they didn't even change course to atleast try to evade all the fire (watching the scene again, they didn't even move -.-) and I also don't remember St torpedos being guided, atleats not from DS9, they always seemed more of a fire and forget thing

It should be noted that the Borg have always been defeated through creativity, instead of sheer military might, as their assimilation and adaptation abilities let them know everything about there enemies weapons, tactics, and other things. I could picture them winning a war against the Imperium of Man, simply because they lack the technological creativity to bypass the Borg's adaptation

for the love of god not this bullshit again

[sonofccn]

except they have never done the "jump to warp" thing, even when fired upon by the federation

As noted by others against Federation level torpedoes evasive manuvers could well waste more resources then simply allowing your shield to absorb it. As to first contact the Borg are not the fastest responders to outside stimuli. I firmly believe the first couple of Borg cubes are simply going to stand there and spout speeches about assimulating as 40K torps smash into them and blow them to bits but it isn't a stretch to assume the borg can figure how to move to evade fire.

I also don't remember St torpedos being guided, atleats not from DS9, they always seemed more of a fire and forget thing

Well in Star Trek undiscovered country Kirk and co modfiy a photon torpedo to track the heat signature of Klang (sp?) cloaked warship.

Balance of Terror (TOS) The Romulan plasma torpedo was implied to track, otherwise Kirk would have simply ordered the ship to change course slightly and avoid it.

Augments (ENT) gives us this, sorry for the poor transcript but Trekcore was the only place off the top of my head for finding transcripts and they only had the closed captioning log for this episode.

There are three
population centers--
two here, and another
on the northern continent.
We'll detonate
the torpedo
over the
southern hemisphere.
That'll ensure
the maximum number
of casualties.
What's the
weapon's status?
We've modified
the warhead.
But we need to test
the guidance protocols
( console beeps )
before we can...
There's a ship
on an intercept course.
Enterprise.
Increase
to maximum speed.
Load the torpedo.
Stand by to fire as soon
as we drop out of warp.
The guidance protocols...
Do as I say!

Also from the same episode has Enterprise firing three torpedoes which chase down the Augments bio torpedo, which was curving around the planet towards the southern continent.

[Mr. Oragahn]

1. I did say the Borg were outgunned however 40k torpedoes will likely not be much of a threat. Unless in the fluff they are radicaly differnt they can't alter headings once fired, lacking shielding or any noticable defense and should be easy prey for any Trek race much less the Borg to either evade or destroy.

Depends how fast they're fired. Borg Cubes don't go zipping around. They tend to sit still in battle. Sitting duck, in other words.

3.Rise {Voyager} indicates a nickel-iron asteriod could be vaporised by a mere photon torpedothis page scales it at a lenght of 390 meters and a width of 185. High double digit MT to low low thriple digit isn't unjustified.

I'd invite you to read this SB thread: Pegasus, Deja Q, Planet Killers, et al..

Skin of evil (TNG) also suggest low to medium thriple digits scaled from the size of the explosion.

Based on my discussion about this episode with JMS on htis board, I can tell right now that SoE is a bad example and barely reliable.
It's a bad crap explosion VFX, against a ground based powerful being capable of blocking the transportation capabilities of a major UFP ship and taking down from space a shuttle which I see no reason not to be capable of warp considering the place it was found in. All you can go with, at best, is the intent of this, and we don't know if Picard standing up on his bridge is any sufficient reason to think he expected the explosion to be visible.

Balance of Terror (TOS) shows a Romulan ship capable of reducing a mile diameter asteriod to dust in 1-2 shots( the first shot was at least stopped in part by the outpost buried within deflector system) while a super weapon of the time it is logical the Romulans would have been harder to contain in the 24th century if federation technology hadn't advanced to compensate to some extent.

TOS also shows plenty of nonsense in terms of large scale firepower which has been addressed at length here.

Then there are The Die is Caste (DS9) which if assuming what we see are clouds being formed is double digit gigatons to if we take the dialoge seriously to ICS levels.

Restating TDiC as another reliable proof of great firepower is not useful. It's an extreme unstable outlier on its own.
It's been dealt with at length on this board, and the conclusion is the same as found anywhere else: a complete failure to integrate this part of Trek into the average firepower demonstration.
At best, you can argue for fragile theories of extremely specific bizarre weapons and very imaginative ways to understand the term "destroy".
I personnally argued in favour of some distant cousin of a Genesis-like WMD, perhaps using protomatter or something equally weird that would alter all matter on the planet, much more than any NDF or rawer weapon (weapons which effects would still fail to fit with visuals). As affecting all matter, the weird weapons would also affect the Founders and "destroy" the world in a way that it would be dead, and perhaps even brought to complete instability if the planet was saturated with enough fire of these devices so that it would blow up.

Then Pegasus (TNG) which depending on scaling issues can reach into the gigatons. The scaling is of course the matter of much dispute by all parties.

As a high end. What about the conservative end?

In a similar vien to TDIC Broken link(DS9) suggests the defient could turn the world the Founders were on [ for real this time :-) ] to a burnt cinder.

Which of course would be valuable if it wasn't for the sheer smell of hyperbole, and the fact that such a ship distributing its firepower intelligently can cause a massive "nuclear winter" event, kicking enough dust and ashes to let it blanket the planet for a good time, literally turning it into some kind of cinder.

[GStone]

It should be noted that the Borg have always been defeated through creativity, instead of sheer military might, as their assimilation and adaptation abilities let them know everything about there enemies weapons, tactics, and other things. I could picture them winning a war against the Imperium of Man, simply because they lack the technological creativity to bypass the Borg's adaptation.

In fact, the only Warhammer 40k race I see giving the Borg a hard time would be the Orks, because Ork technology only works out of Orkish belief, making it difficult to assimilate and learn about Ork technology.

(Edited for spelling error)

They'd probably be stuck with hypno-chipping them and storing them someplace and hooking them up to a transwarp relay, so they can be kept out of harms way and protected.

[sonofccn]

Depends how fast they're fired. Borg Cubes don't go zipping around. They tend to sit still in battle. Sitting duck, in other words.

No faster then dramatic speed torps which always take roughly the same speed regardless of distance to hit their target, just a few seconds. I never said Borg cubes didn't tend to sit still in battle, just that after the ten or so get turn into shrapnel the collective might adapt by actually moving.

I'd invite you to read this SB thread: Pegasus, Deja Q, Planet Killers, et al. .

Anything paticular I'm looking for? It contends with the Pegasus incident, Deja Q and Planet killers , as it title suggests, but I don't see anything on RISE through I only skimmed the first page.

Based on my discussion about this episode with JMS on htis board, I can tell right now that SoE is a bad example and barely reliable.
It's a bad crap explosion VFX, against a ground based powerful being capable of blocking the transportation capabilities of a major UFP ship and taking down from space a shuttle which I see no reason not to be capable of warp considering the place it was found in. All you can go with, at best, is the intent of this, and we don't know if Picard standing up on his bridge is any sufficient reason to think he expected the explosion to be visible.

I never said it was a super great example but it is an example to be used with others. We can't just ignore it. I also highly doubt Armus(sp?) would explode violently, I'd rather think his weird powers would nerf the bomb rather then add to it. A better complaint would be the shuttle might have added to the flash we saw through it was broken and depowered.

TOS also shows plenty of nonsense in terms of large scale firepower which has been addressed at length here.

Large scale firepower? Yes, actually rather consistent all things considered. I fail to see how it is nonsense however. Trek is simply inconsistent with firepower with ranges all over the board. No one set is superior to the other, we just strive to find the best average.

Restating TDiC as another reliable proof of great firepower is not useful. It's an extreme unstable outlier on its own.

You realize I stated that I found the 100 MT figure a better fit for the Trek verse right? I wasn't arguing that we use TDIC because it is an outlier with on the low end being high Trek firepower and on the high end being insane firepower. Dagons Child however said 100 mt felt too high I merely wanted to show him the range involved of trek firepower.

As a high end. What about the conservative end?

The bottom of the low? Assuming Riker meant to break the asteriod into 10m chunks and assuming this was done in the most effecient method possible? I believe 10 megatons per torpedo but it's been a while since I've seen the calc.

Which of course would be valuable if it wasn't for the sheer smell of hyperbole, and the fact that such a ship distributing its firepower intelligently can cause a massive "nuclear winter" event, kicking enough dust and ashes to let it blanket the planet for a good time, literally turning it into some kind of cinder.

They had to kill the founders and do so rather quickly since there were two or three enemy warships who would attempt to stop them. Founders are not the easiest creatures to kill and they would not have time to "intelligently" cause a nuclear winter, assuming that would even bother them. Is the yield highly variable depending upon your preference? Of course. I do not deny what is self-evident. That does not mean we can ignore it or simply try and go for the lowested possible value.

[l33telboi]

Depends how fast they're fired. Borg Cubes don't go zipping around. They tend to sit still in battle. Sitting duck, in other words.

Depends on what you mean by sitting duck, for their size, they've been shown to be quite mobile.

All you can go with, at best, is the intent of this

Or then we go by visuals, like we usually do. A flash that big, visible on a planet zoomed to that level, can impossibly be in the double-digit megaton range. If it was, then the entire slightly older population of Finland would be blind at the moment. No one in my family is blind though, last I checked.

TOS also shows plenty of nonsense in terms of large scale firepower which has been addressed at length here.

Dismissing evidence isn't a particularly attractive thing to do. There are literally tons of higher showings in Trek, but you seem to dismiss them all by simply saying they're either nonsense, that they're outliers or that we should follow some average that you seem have arbitrarily defined.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Depends how fast they're fired. Borg Cubes don't go zipping around. They tend to sit still in battle. Sitting duck, in other words.

Depends on what you mean by sitting duck, for their size, they've been shown to be quite mobile.

Quite mobile like what? For all I've seen about Cubes fighting, their maneuvers are akin to flying straight. A 3 km wide cube is a rather very easy target in such conditions.

All you can go with, at best, is the intent of this

Or then we go by visuals, like we usually do. A flash that big, visible on a planet zoomed to that level, can impossibly be in the double-digit megaton range. If it was, then the entire slightly older population of Finland would be blind at the moment. No one in my family is blind though, last I checked.

The flash lasts three to four frames, and is followed by a large distorted explosion (instead of a massive round fireball) that last for about one second (23 frames before camera cut, close to complete fade out), and it above completely surpassed the size of the flash itself, which is simply not possible.
That and the fact, as I said, that the creature hit was capable of mustering energies letting it bring grasp an UFP shuttle and sort of crash it some fifty meters next to it. Who knows what would happen when hitting such a thing with a torp? Plus the fact that the shuttle was still there, and in all likeliness, was warp capable, and thus its own fuel would need to be accounted for.

TOS also shows plenty of nonsense in terms of large scale firepower which has been addressed at length here.

Dismissing evidence isn't a particularly attractive thing to do. There are literally tons of higher showings in Trek, but you seem to dismiss them all by simply saying they're either nonsense, that they're outliers or that we should follow some average that you seem have arbitrarily defined.

What's arbitrary here exactly?
We're talking about cases which have to fit and above all make sense. It's not a question of looking attractive, it's a question of understanding the implication of what an episode claims. It's absurd to insist on high ends like the blue ball on repulsors that leaves a continent wide crater in Obsession in a way that makes zero scientific sense for what is nothing more than a major antimatter explosion, or in another episode, the Nil that can withstand sound waves in space that would be so powerful they could vapourize countless planets in a fraction of a second but don't even harm the atmosphere of the planet they were fired from. These are the illogical outliers.
And to those who'd pretend it's only a TOS thing, and thus any post TOS über high ends are logical, please think of Voyager which had a shuttle's overloading warp core being a lethal threat to a fully operational Voyager at a distance of a million kilometers, with the ship's crew fully aware of the impeding danger and thus ready to switch shields on.

There are more reasonnable high ends which are miles below that kind of nonsense, and generally argue for high petajoule or low exajoule/watt abilities, but they're pretty much secular for all I recall (like the E-E's warp core power generation capacity cited by Data).
There also are those tricobalt devices, which are high yield explosives.

The explosion of an entire antimatter pod in Voyager's Resolutions could be interesting.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'd invite you to read this SB thread: Pegasus, Deja Q, Planet Killers, et al. .

Anything paticular I'm looking for? It contends with the Pegasus incident, Deja Q and Planet killers , as it title suggests, but I don't see anything on RISE through I only skimmed the first page.

L33telboi posted a link to a thread featuring a claculation he refered to, and said thread also had its own link to the Rise incident being dealt with by vivftp with better quality pictures, here.

I never said it was a super great example but it is an example to be used with others. We can't just ignore it. I also highly doubt Armus(sp?) would explode violently, I'd rather think his weird powers would nerf the bomb rather then add to it.

We don't know. We cannot know how this lifeform reacts, nor how it musters the energies it uses to pull down shuttles from space and block beaming technology as mounted onboard capital ships.

A better complaint would be the shuttle might have added to the flash we saw through it was broken and depowered.

Indeed, and I originally mentionned it a while back in my exchange with JMS.

Large scale firepower? Yes, actually rather consistent all things considered. I fail to see how it is nonsense however. Trek is simply inconsistent with firepower with ranges all over the board. No one set is superior to the other, we just strive to find the best average.

Please read my reply to L33telboi.

You realize I stated that I found the 100 MT figure a better fit for the Trek verse right? I wasn't arguing that we use TDIC because it is an outlier with on the low end being high Trek firepower and on the high end being insane firepower. Dagons Child however said 100 mt felt too high I merely wanted to show him the range involved of trek firepower.

This wasn't clear but fine.

The bottom of the low? Assuming Riker meant to break the asteriod into 10m chunks and assuming this was done in the most effecient method possible? I believe 10 megatons per torpedo but it's been a while since I've seen the calc.

They had to kill the founders and do so rather quickly since there were two or three enemy warships who would attempt to stop them. Founders are not the easiest creatures to kill and they would not have time to "intelligently" cause a nuclear winter, assuming that would even bother them. Is the yield highly variable depending upon your preference? Of course. I do not deny what is self-evident. That does not mean we can ignore it or simply try and go for the lowested possible value.

I'm not ignoring it. You'll also notice that turning a planet into a cinder is a separate concern. The abilities I explicited, once zeroed on the Link, would be the equivalent of focusing all that firepower into one spot. Plus again hyperbole.

[sonofccn]

L33telboi posted a link to a thread featuring a claculation he refered to, and said thread also had its own link to the Rise incident being dealt with by vivftp with better quality pictures, here.

Hmm yes. Vivftp calcs do appear to be an even handed and fair calc of the incident, through when using the RISE torp as a benchmark he uses it as soon as it exited the craft ignoring the possibliity of glow growth which he remarked upon earlier, and generates a wide range of outcomes ranging from kiloton to low triple digit megaton. It in no way disproves high double digit megaton to low triple digit megaton.

We don't know. We cannot know how this lifeform reacts, nor how it musters the energies it uses to pull down shuttles from space and block beaming technology as mounted onboard capital ships.

While we can't know for sure we have no reason to assume his psychic powers would enhance an explosion.

Indeed, and I originally mentionned it a while back in my exchange with JMS.

Possible but we can't know how much if any was added.

What's arbitrary here exactly?
We're talking about cases which have to fit and above all make sense. It's not a question of looking attractive, it's a question of understanding the implication of what an episode claims. It's absurd to insist on high ends like the blue ball on repulsors that leaves a continent wide crater in Obsession in a way that makes zero scientific sense for what is nothing more than a major antimatter explosion, or in another episode, the Nil that can withstand sound waves in space that would be so powerful they could vapourize countless planets in a fraction of a second but don't even harm the atmosphere of the planet they were fired from. These are the illogical outliers.
And to those who'd pretend it's only a TOS thing, and thus any post TOS über high ends are logical, please think of Voyager which had a shuttle's overloading warp core being a lethal threat to a fully operational Voyager at a distance of a million kilometers, with the ship's crew fully aware of the impeding danger and thus ready to switch shields on.

Well first off you started this based upon me citing Balance of Terror which falls under high Trek not Insane firepower as planet destroying sound waves( in space no less). So I believe this entire thing is a strawman argument unless your point is to dismiss TOS, and as extension any firepower event too high. Second citing them as nonsense because they violate real physics is a cheap shot at best. From gravity plating to warp drive to phasers they abuse and break the laws as we know them. Obsession is no less valid then Star Trek V in terms of firepower or any of the multitude of other examples runing the gambit of fire power.

This wasn't clear but fine.

When I explained which calcs I was using for both sides wasn't clear enough? Dagons child post citing he thought 100 megatons was too high?

I'm not ignoring it. You'll also notice that turning a planet into a cinder is a separate concern. The abilities I explicited, once zeroed on the Link, would be the equivalent of focusing all that firepower into one spot. Plus again hyperbole.

Ah no.

I was hoping to gain control of
the phasers as well. I just
hadn't gotten around to it yet.
(a beat)
Don't you see? We have an
opportunity here. A chance to end
the Dominion threat once and for all.
(trying to win him over)
We have enough firepower on this
ship to turn that planet into a
smoking cinder. Personally, I
think that would be a very good
thing.

The cinder bit is not some idle comentary on Defiant class ability. Garak is trying to pursuad Worf to wipe out the Link, which we have no idea how far it covers it's planet but has always been protrayed as large, cutting off the serpents head before being destroyed by the guarding warships. He isn't musing that with a couple of torps he can throw the world into nuclear winter but that they have the firepower to kill a race that are canoncialy established as taking several disrupter shots or a high powered phaser blast to kill on an individual basis. Who can transform into things like mist or just about anything else to try and escape death and as an extension it is logical to assume they are very bloody hard to kill.

[sonofccn]

Regarding the possibility of a Borg cube to manuver.

Here is Scorpian (VOY) the cube displays a nice agility at 6:30 mark rapidly spinning and again at 6:54 where it sidesteps infront of the enemy ship.

Then here is Regeneration (ENT) as a baseline of what a heavily modified by the Borg transport can do. From the 1:56 point to 2:03 point it changes it's heading significantly.

I'll try and dig up some more clips tomorrow or sunday. l33telboi
any episodes you suggest I look at?

[Mike DiCenso]

For l33telboi: I've read through most of the SB.com thread. The Promellian battlecruiser was not being specifically targeted alone by the torpedoes, but rather the aceton assimilators which were part of the titular booby trap. Three torpedoes out of the spread hit and destroy asteroids, and one hits the battlecruiser itself. Even if the explosions were proximity detonations with no asteroid hits, the fact that the resulting fireballs that expanded outward from that point consumed all the asteroids containing the hundreds of thousands of assimilator devices hidden in all those asteroids is rather remarkable. especially when you consider that the E-D had accelerated to 135 meters per second and reached as high as 219 meters per second. It takes the ship 3.5 minutes to clear the field once underway. At 135 meters per second, that equates to a distance of 28,350 meters or 28.35 kilometers travelled. So the explosions from the torpedoes have to expand across at least that much distance and yet over the square of the distance from the impact site, still have enough energy to not only overwhelm the aceton assimilators (remember they suck up energy), but destroy the asteroids containing them as well. Quite an impressive feat.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I also don't remember St torpedos being guided, atleats not from DS9, they always seemed more of a fire and forget thing

Photon torpeoes are self-guided devices: the torpedo fired by the E-A against Chang's cloaked BoP in ST VI is a great example of this as it maneuvered around and used the sensors Spock and McCoy installed on it to track the BoP's plasma exaust.

In TNG's "Half a Life", Doctor Timicin modified the guidance system of Starfleet photon torpedoes for use in an experiment he was conducting.

In DS9's "Valiant", in order to rig Vailant's torpedo to produce a high energy burst of delta radiation, the guidence systems had to be removed and the torpedoes flown by remote manual control.

It should be noted that the Borg have always been defeated through creativity, instead of sheer military might, as their assimilation and adaptation abilities let them know everything about there enemies weapons, tactics, and other things. I could picture them winning a war against the Imperium of Man, simply because they lack the technological creativity to bypass the Borg's adaptation

for the love of god not this bullshit again

Why? How is Sift Green wrong in stating that ?
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Hmm yes. Vivftp calcs do appear to be an even handed and fair calc of the incident, through when using the RISE torp as a benchmark he uses it as soon as it exited the craft ignoring the possibliity of glow growth which he remarked upon earlier, and generates a wide range of outcomes ranging from kiloton to low triple digit megaton. It in no way disproves high double digit megaton to low triple digit megaton.

I didn't say it did. I recognize Rise as one of the better showings.

We don't know. We cannot know how this lifeform reacts, nor how it musters the energies it uses to pull down shuttles from space and block beaming technology as mounted onboard capital ships.

While we can't know for sure we have no reason to assume his psychic powers would enhance an explosion.

If you see Armus as an engine of some sort, that can do certain things in exchange of certain power, and that at the moment he was fired at, he was pissed off and not wanting to be alone and possibly in full rage and trying to prevent anyone from leaving, he could be totally charged up, psychic powers or not.

Indeed, and I originally mentionned it a while back in my exchange with JMS.

Possible but we can't know how much if any was added.

It's extremely unlikely that the pods, which didn't leak AM obviously, would have added nothing to the explosion. Since we're talking about a shuttle capable of crossing systems and carrying a highly ranked delegate, we're certainly not looking at a piss poor sluggish shuttle either, which means a good warp speed, thus a certain high consumption of energy, and the adequate fuel reserves for this.

What's arbitrary here exactly?
We're talking about cases which have to fit and above all make sense. It's not a question of looking attractive, it's a question of understanding the implication of what an episode claims. It's absurd to insist on high ends like the blue ball on repulsors that leaves a continent wide crater in Obsession in a way that makes zero scientific sense for what is nothing more than a major antimatter explosion, or in another episode, the Nil that can withstand sound waves in space that would be so powerful they could vapourize countless planets in a fraction of a second but don't even harm the atmosphere of the planet they were fired from. These are the illogical outliers.
And to those who'd pretend it's only a TOS thing, and thus any post TOS über high ends are logical, please think of Voyager which had a shuttle's overloading warp core being a lethal threat to a fully operational Voyager at a distance of a million kilometers, with the ship's crew fully aware of the impeding danger and thus ready to switch shields on.

Well first off you started this based upon me citing Balance of Terror which falls under high Trek not Insane firepower as planet destroying sound waves( in space no less). So I believe this entire thing is a strawman argument unless your point is to dismiss TOS, and as extension any firepower event too high.

I'm just weary of TOS based arguments. It brings me to a position which you lot won't like, but that's the way it goes, because it has me only accept what fits with the newer Trek, which in general seems less far fetched in the power of regular equipment and other devices.
The yield cited in Doomsday Machine makes far more sense for example.
But please define what you meant by "super weapon of that time". Do you mean something that can bust a mile long asteroid in one or two shots was deemed a rare and extremely overkill Romulan weapon back then?

Second citing them as nonsense because they violate real physics is a cheap shot at best. From gravity plating to warp drive to phasers they abuse and break the laws as we know them. Obsession is no less valid then Star Trek V in terms of firepower or any of the multitude of other examples runing the gambit of fire power.

It is, but it's only obvious from the moment you think about it for a moment. It was nothing more than an antimatter bomb on steroids. Have you considered the energies needed to remove the atmosphere of a planet in one shot, from a single bomb?
You'd better try to pulverize the planet. There's just no way this bomb could have done what it supposedly did, and the explosion cooled off so fast that it was nothing more than a giant scorch mark effect flattened on the surface of the planet.

If that wasn't bad enough, they supposedly filled that container on repulsors with teraton-worthy ounces of antimatter picked from the standard fuel reserves routinely used in the warp core!
Plu-eez.

I'm not ignoring it. You'll also notice that turning a planet into a cinder is a separate concern. The abilities I explicited, once zeroed on the Link, would be the equivalent of focusing all that firepower into one spot. Plus again hyperbole.

Ah no.

I was hoping to gain control of
the phasers as well. I just
hadn't gotten around to it yet.
(a beat)
Don't you see? We have an
opportunity here. A chance to end
the Dominion threat once and for all.
(trying to win him over)
We have enough firepower on this
ship to turn that planet into a
smoking cinder. Personally, I
think that would be a very good
thing.

The cinder bit is not some idle comentary on Defiant class ability. Garak is trying to pursuad Worf to wipe out the Link, which we have no idea how far it covers it's planet but has always been protrayed as large, cutting off the serpents head before being destroyed by the guarding warships. He isn't musing that with a couple of torps he can throw the world into nuclear winter but that they have the firepower to kill a race that are canoncialy established as taking several disrupter shots or a high powered phaser blast to kill on an individual basis. Who can transform into things like mist or just about anything else to try and escape death and as an extension it is logical to assume they are very bloody hard to kill.

A teutology is not a good argument. He's merely saying the ship can do X, and thus this is enough firepower to destroy the Great Link. You want to argue that the ship has enough firepower to slag the whole planet, which would require a firepower that's not seen anywhere else.
Taking Wong's nuclear calculator, assuming fireball causes and behaviour would be fairly similar, and taking a 100 MT device, we get a ground contact fireball radius of 4.4 km, thus an area of 60.82 km².
The Founders' planet doesn't seem to have that much watery areas, so it's mostly dry. Earth has a surface area of 510,072,000 km².
You'd need 8,386,583 torpedoes to blanket the whole planet with fire, and roughly 27,313 torps if you deemed "3rd degree burns" thermal radiation good enough to kill Founders.

I'm giving you an opportunity to accept a good enough firepower capability without dismissing it entirely by tagging it of being pure hyperbole.