The purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation?

[Who is like God arbour]

No judgement, only a comment:

I would go with all speeds, transmitting at all times we are on a rescue mission, get ready to transport as many people as possible, then beat a hasty retreat upon seeing the Klingons ready to attack...

At least, that's what I'd try to do... :)

That was Saaviks plan. It has not worked. The Klingons are jamming your transmissons and won't allow that you even reach the reported position of the Kobayashi Maru.

But that is nothing you would know when you have to decide.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I have to say I like Riker's (apocryphal) solution: Challenge the Klingon commander of the force to a duel. Hostilities are then put on hold for the duration, during which the emergency situation aboard the Maru can be remedied and my "cowardly" first officer flees with the ship.

[Who is like God arbour]

From where is that?

And how could he reach the Klingon commander if the Klingons were jamming his transmisson frequencies?

• SAAVIK:
  • Inform the Klingons we are on a rescue mission.
  UHURA:
  • They're jamming all the frequencies, Captain.

They weren't interested in talking or in to be challenged to a duel. It's to assume that this part of the simulation is constant and it is impossible to reach the Klingons to assure that nobody could use such a loophole.

[sonofccn]

The computer has given already all available data it has. Sure, you could call Starfleet, but I doubt that each private ship has to report to Starfleet (or does e.g. a Navy usually know about each ship, their routes and sailing lists of the merchant fleet of their own nation, maybe even of other nations?). You would have to find the shipowner and hope that you can get him to answer your call and has the necessary data available.
And in all that time, if it would be no trap, people are dying.

Trek computers appear to have nearly the entire Federation database on board but I admit it is stretching to have a specific ship on file. I can still request the nearest shipping lanes, as a military officer in charge of protecting Federation citizens and vessels I should have access to where civilians will be flying, to see just how likely it is for a ship to wander into the neutral zone.

Would you wait outside of the Neutral Zone until your probe has reached its destination and only then, if the existence of the Kobayashi Maru is confirmed, fly into it? In that case, assume that the probe confirms that there is a frighter and does not show any Klingons (The simulation would not allow that you have a reason to not fly into the Neutral Zone - besides the treaty of the Neutral Zone and possible political consequences if you break it. It would not allow that you would recognise the trap as such. The Klingons could be cloaked and could have used a real frighter, maybe even the captured Kobayashi Maru.).

If I recall correctly the Maru is only a few moments away from my position. So in that time I can request the information I need and reroute power to the engines and shields. If I am remembering incorrectly and it will take several minutes simply to reach the maru at high warp I'll follow along behind my probe so I'll still have a peek at what lies ahead without stumbling too blindly into it but I still have time to rescue roughly two hundred civilians.

You can't beam with your shields up

My plan is to fly there as fast as possible without broadcasting my position, any Klingon commander likely won't care I am on a rescue mission, lower shields and perform as close to a mass beam out as possible before spinning around and warping back relying on my reinforced shielding to withstand the assault of any Klingon fire. I can't afford a pitch battle, not with critical injured civilians in the line of fire, so fighting even a single Klingon battle cruiser is out.

[Praeothmin]

But that is nothing you would know when you have to decide.

Exactly, which is why it was my plan... :)

But you and sonofccn have reminded me that indeed, the Klingons weren't interested in letting anyone go, they just wanted a fight.

So, in that case, my revised plan is:
Go in at all speeds, weapons at the ready as soon as we arrive, fire on any and all ships approaching as soon as they are within weapons' range... :)

[Who is like God arbour]

But you and sonofccn have reminded me that indeed, the Klingons weren't interested in letting anyone go, they just wanted a fight.

You wouldn't know that either. That's knowledge you have only after the simulation. All you know is, what I have described above.

Go in at all speeds, weapons at the ready as soon as we arrive, fire on any and all ships approaching as soon as they are within weapons' range... :)

Exactly how a Starfleet officer is expected to act: shoot first and ask questions later. I only hope that you are not accidentally shooting at the Kobayashi Maru. I can't imagine that this would find approval.

[GStone]

Here's me. Put all the power I had into the shields and head for them. I tell them to prepare to eject their power core and ready all my transporter rooms and any shuttles and cargo bays that have transporters. I'm not sure if TOS shuttles had transporters. I drop out of warp and scan the area, as I'm getting pelted with klingon weapons. I tell the maru to dump the core and I swing around and grab it with a tractor beam. I make a quick turn and throw it at a klingon ship. If they haven't shot at it, I do and make it explode. I lock on a tractor beam to the maru and head in a direction that isn't where the ships are coming from, even if it's further into the neutral zone. I pivot and go underneath one of the klingon ships (maybe even bounce off it), as I extend my shields around the maru and put everything except for engines and transporters into the shields (including life support). I get as many people on board as I could and pivot around again, throwing the maru at the klingons and then, warp out for fed territory. I might not get everyone, but I'd do the piloting myself to shorten response time. I'd tell the weapons station my plan before we reach and tell them to not wait for my orders to destroy the maru's core. Was tractor control part of the conn or weapon station? Whchever it is, I'd do a ship wide announcement of the plan.

As much as trek follows a naval style, you really shouldn't be waiting for someone to say an order for every damn little thing. You know the plan ahead of time and you pay attention and you just do it.

[Praeothmin]

You wouldn't know that either.

What I meant is, in TOS, it was common knowledge that Klingons were very belligerent, and were more likely to start shooting on sight then let you contact them and start talking.
So expecting an armed response when you first see them would be prudent...

Exactly how a Starfleet officer is expected to act: shoot first and ask questions later. I only hope that you are not accidentally shooting at the Kobayashi Maru. I can't imagine that this would find approval.

You can always blame it on the Klingons afterwards... :)
But I was just kidding, of course.
You can't come in weapons blazing, because you don't want to be the one to cause a Klingon declaration of war, specially after they've caught you trespassing on their side of the Neutral Zone...

Any way you look at the test, it's going to be pretty tough...

[Who is like God arbour]

One of the problems you are ignoring is the fact that it was reported that the Kobayashi Maru has run on a gravitic mine. Usually where one is are more and they would be constructed to be difficult to detect because otherwise they would be nearly useless because one could easily circumvent them if they are easy to be seen.

That means that you can't fly with maximum speed to the position where you are assuming the Kobayashi Maru and you can't simply go to warp if there are suddenly a few combative Klingons.

I would assume that this was the reason why Saavik is not simply gone to warp at the first sign of problems in her test.

Please consider that problem in your strategy and tactic.

And be ready to defend your decision to enter the Neutral Zone and risk a war to your training supervising officer. Why is it the correct decision to enter the Neutral Zone to save maybe tree hundret beings if you risk with that action a war in which billions could die?

I think that is the only decision you have, that will not result in your simulated death but may be the only decision which, if its the wrong decision, could result in a fail.

[GStone]

Please consider that problem in your strategy and tactic.

And be ready to defend your decision to enter the Neutral Zone and risk a war to your training supervising officer. Why is it the correct decision to enter the Neutral Zone to save maybe tree hundret beings if you risk with that action a war in which billions could die?

The mines is one of the reasons why I got so much power to the shields. My decision to go into the NZ, I'd make the argument that the mines that are hard to detect are purposefully placed there to make it look like it's the fault of the damaged ships that cross into the neutral zone. And I would use the fighting and aggressive aspects of klingon culture as the reason why they probably put the mines out there. And I didn't want the maru people to get jacked up in this kind of situation. The klingons are looking for a fight and they want to get into a fight with the Federation.

The fact that the klingons were sitting in wait and cloaked and not helping the maru people is also evidence they set the mines and wanted to start shit with the federation. I was defending the people of the federation from the obviously illegal actions perpatrated by the klingons.

[sonofccn]

One of the problems you are ignoring is the fact that it was reported that the Kobayashi Maru has run on a gravitic mine. Usually where one is are more and they would be constructed to be difficult to detect because otherwise they would be nearly useless because one could easily circumvent them if they are easy to be seen.

The probe I dispatched should at least provide some help in locating the mines, at the very least when it explodes for no apparent reason that might be a tip to leave. :) One problem in devising tactics is that I don't think we know the lethal radius of gravitic mines so I can't be certain that staying twenty or so thousand miles from the Maru while I do beam off will help or not.

That means that you can't fly with maximum speed to the position where you are assuming the Kobayashi Maru and you can't simply go to warp if there are suddenly a few combative Klingons.

I would assume that this was the reason why Saavik is not simply gone to warp at the first sign of problems in her test.

Do a 180 to leave since we presumbly didn't hit any mines on our way in. If a Klingon vessel is in the way go over or below him and rely on reinforced shielding to keep his weapons from ripping you to pieces.

And be ready to defend your decision to enter the Neutral Zone and risk a war to your training supervising officer. Why is it the correct decision to enter the Neutral Zone to save maybe tree hundret beings if you risk with that action a war in which billions could die?

The primary purpose of starfleet is to protect UFP citizens lives and property. Several hundred citizens were in peril, I did my duty. Their is no actual risk to warfare since the Klingons know they can't win, otherwise they would have already attacked us and would not steep to subterfuge to dishonor or discredit starfleet captains. Thank you sir and good night.

[Jedi Master Spock]

From where is that?

One of the novels. Memory Alpha talks about it in the Kobayashi Maru article.

I don't believe the Kobayashi Maru is completely constant over the years; technology and the political situation are hardly static. Still, from the article, I think one version of Riker's attempt involved a space suit.

[Mike DiCenso]

From where is that?

One of the novels. Memory Alpha talks about it in the Kobayashi Maru article.
.

Actually, it was Peter Kirk (James T. Kirk's nephew) in A.C. Crispin's book "Sarek", not Will Riker that used that tactic, making him the second person and the second Kirk to beat the no-win scenario.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

I have thought, that maybe that quote from the novel could be interessting. It describes the debriefing of Saavik:

All those kids.

They waited for Admiral Kirk in silence, anxious yet eager. Lieutenant Saavik arrived a moment after Kirk sat down; Spock, his usual emotionless self once more, came in quietly and sat at the very back of the room. Jim Kirk was tempted to declare the discussion over before it had begun, but regulations required a debriefing; he had to fill out a report afterward -

That’s all I ever pay attention to anymore, he thought. Regulations and paperwork.

He opened the meeting. He had been through it all a hundred times. The usual protocol was to discuss with each student, in reverse order of seniority, what they would have done had they been in command of the ship. Today was no different, and Kirk had heard all the answers before. One would have stuck to regulations and remained outside the Neutral Zone. Another would have sent in a shuttle for reconnaissance.

Kirk stifled a yawn.

“Lieutenant Saavik,” he said finally, “have you anything to add? Second thoughts?”

“No, sir.”

“Nothing at all?”

“Were I confronted with the same events, I would react in the same manner. The details might be different. I see no point to increasing your boredom with trivia.”

Kirk felt embarrassed to have shown his disinterest so clearly. He reacted rather harshly. “You’d do the same thing, despite knowing it would mean the destruction of your ship and crew?”

“I would know that it might mean the destruction of my ship and crew, Admiral. If I could not prove that Kobayashi Maru were an illusion, I would answer its distress call.”

“Lieutenant, are you familiar with Rickoverian paradoxes?”

“No, sir, I am not.”

“Let me tell you the prototype. You are on a ship—a sailing ship, an oceangoing vessel. It sinks. You find yourself in a life raft with one other person. The life raft is damaged. It might support one person, but not two. How would you go about persuading the other person to let you have the raft?”

“I would not,” she said.

“No? Why?”

“For one thing, sir, I am an excellent swimmer.”

One of the other students giggled. The sound broke off sharply when a classmate elbowed him in the ribs.

“The water,” Kirk said with some asperity, “is crowded with extremely carnivorous sharks.”

“Sharks, Admiral?”

“Terran,” Spock said from the back of the room. “Order Selachii.”

“Right,” Kirk said. “And they are very, very hungry.”

“My answer is the same.”

“Oh, really? You’re a highly educated Starfleet officer. Suppose the other person was completely illiterate, had no family, spent most of the time getting thrown in jail, and never held any job a low-level robot couldn’t do. Then what?”

“I would neither request nor attempt to order or persuade any civilian to sacrifice their life for mine.”

“But a lot of resources are invested in your training. Don’t you think you owe it to society to preserve yourself so you can carry out your responsibilities?”

Her high-arched eyebrows drew together. “Is this what you believe, Admiral?”

“I’m not being rated, Lieutenant. You are. I’ve asked you a serious question, and you’ve replied with what could be considered appalling false modesty.”

Saavik stood up angrily. “You ask me if I should not preserve myself so I can carry out my responsibilities. Then I ask you, what are my responsibilities? By the criteria you have named, my responsibilities are to preserve myself so I can carry out my responsibilities! This is a circular and self-justifying argument. It is immoral in the extreme! A just society—and if I am not mistaken, the Federation considers itself to be just—employs a military for one reason alone: to protect its civilians. If we decide to judge that some civilians are ‘worth’ protecting, and some are not, if we decide we are too important to be risked, then we destroy our own purpose. We cease to be the servants of our society. We become its tyrants!”

She was leaning forward with her fingers clenched around the back of a chair in the next row.

“You feel strongly about this, don’t you, Lieutenant?”

She straightened up, and her fair skin colored to a nearly Vulcan hue.

“That is my opinion on the subject, sir.”

Kirk smiled for the first time during the meeting: this was the first time he had felt thoroughly pleased in far too long.

“And you make an elegant defense of your opinion, too, Lieutenant. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard that problem quite so effectively turned turtle.”

She frowned again, weighing the ambiguous statement. Then, clearly, she decided to take it as a compliment. “Thank you, sir.” She sat down again.

Kirk settled back in his chair and addressed the whole class. “This is the last of the simulation exams. If the office is as efficient as usual, your grades won’t be posted till tomorrow. But I think it’s only fair to let you know ... none of you has any reason to worry. Dismissed.”

After a moment of silence, the whole bunch of them leaped to their feet and, in an outburst of talk and laughter, they all rushed out the door.

“My God,” Jim Kirk said under his breath. “They’re like a tide.”

All, that is, except Saavik. Aloof and alone, she stood up and strode away.

Any opinions?

[Who is like God arbour]

From where is that?

One of the novels. Memory Alpha talks about it in the Kobayashi Maru article.
.

Actually, it was Peter Kirk (James T. Kirk's nephew) in A.C. Crispin's book "Sarek", not Will Riker that used that tactic, making him the second person and the second Kirk to beat the no-win scenario.
-Mike

And the questions remains how he could reach the Klingons if they would have jammend all the frequencies.

Sure, the simulation might be changed. Maybe not the Klingons but Romulans or Cardassians or Borg or whatever else may be the enemy (although then it wouldn't be possible to challenge them to a duel). But I see no reason why the basic consept - regardless what you are doing, you will die, negotiations are not possible - is changed.