The US sold it's freedom and way of life last november!

[PunkMaister]

Take a look at this video and you will see why!

[Narsil]

The irony in that video is astounding. Seriously. It says that one of the best rights we have as free citizens of democratic countries is freedom of speech and opinion... and then says 'but don't follow those opinions, follow our opinion'. Other than that, the dangerous '-ism' seen in this video is an over-exaggerated caricature of Stalinism which is obviously based off of the Eric Arthur Blair view.

Incidentally, I find it funny that, with all of the statement against things that are merely called '-ism' given, this video seems to advocate that age-old philosophy of capitalism.

[PunkMaister]

The irony in that video is astounding. Seriously. It says that one of the best rights we have as free citizens of democratic countries is freedom of speech and opinion... and then says 'but don't follow those opinions, follow our opinion'. Other than that, the dangerous '-ism' seen in this video is an over-exaggerated caricature of Stalinism which is obviously based off of the Eric Arthur Blair view.

Incidentally, I find it funny that, with all of the statement against things that are merely called '-ism' given, this video seems to advocate that age-old philosophy of capitalism.

Well Capitalism worked for what is now centuries so again blaming it as being solely the cause of all the world ills is ridiculous. Again Capitalism does not equal corruption. And congrats on missing the point of the video entirely.


Ism refers to individuals or groups that promise you the moon in a silver platter if you simply give all that you hold dear to them because in turn they will solve all your problems or so they have you believing. Is the fact that anybody that comes with promises of Utopian societies is most likely a charlatan using his or her charisma to gain power to do as they wish when that power is finally given to them... Obama won just on that account.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well Capitalism worked for what is now centuries so again blaming it as being solely the cause of all the world ills is ridiculous. Again Capitalism does not equal corruption. And congrats on missing the point of the video entirely.

Worked?
Its application over time has certainly proved the contrary, no matter the state.

[PunkMaister]

Well Capitalism worked for what is now centuries so again blaming it as being solely the cause of all the world ills is ridiculous. Again Capitalism does not equal corruption. And congrats on missing the point of the video entirely.

Worked?
Its application over time has certainly proved the contrary, no matter the state.

Really now? Even though it has brought the highest standards of living ever known?

Let's take another example my island of Puerto Rico vs another Island of the Caribbean, Cuba! Now back in the 50's both islands took very divergent paths Cuba adopted Communism/Socialism while we adopted an aggressive Capitalism/Industrialization program here that turned the Island from being called "The poor house of the Caribbean" to "The shinning star of the Caribbean and it was accomplished in just a decade or less. Cuba on the other hand. While they socialized well, everything their standards of living dropped substantially and still are below any modern western country. They might have free health care in Cuba but I would never, ever give up my freedom in exchange for what they have. Let's talk blackouts, we have them and as annoying and bad for electric and especially electronic equipment is nothing compared to what Cubans and other Caribbean nations have to endure. Cubans go often at night without power on a near daily basis. And in neighboring Dominican Republic they have blackouts that can last for days and not hours. We have the best road infrastructure of all Latin America. It was free enterprise that allowed for the creation of just about every modern invention from Cars to personal computers, laptops, cell phones, Digital satellite television etc all are products of free enterprise and free thinking and I would never give that up!

EDIT: Back to you Narsil you know what I find funny? That you call yourself a socialist democrat yet you just kicked dirt to one of the most ardent voices of Democratic socialism in the last century George Orwell!not only that but you also then go and basically for all intended purposes defend Stalinism saying it wasn't as bad as Orwell pictured it to be when you also admitted that Stalin was one of the worst tyrants ever and that cam be easily compared to Hitler and so on.

[Jedi Master Spock]

A few quick stats to chew on...

GDP per capita:
Cuba $9,500
Puerto Rico $17,800

Real GDP growth rate:
Cuba +4.30%
Puerto Rico -2.00%

Literacy rate:
Cuba 99.8%
Puerto Rico 94.1%

Life expectancy:
Cuba 77.45
Puerto Rico 78.53

Infant mortality:
Cuba 5.82
Puerto Rico 8.42

Death rate:
Cuba 7.24
Puerto Rico 7.75

The thing about Cuba and Puerto Rico is that it's impossible to compare how the two have done without talking about the elephant looming over the Carribean: Their neighbor, and the dominant economic force in the region, the United States. Cuba has been under embargo by the US; Puerto Rico has been supported by the US.

Are Puerto Ricans wealthier because they have embraced the free market, or because they have been closely tied to the wealthiest single nation on Earth? Scientifically speaking, it's not a great control case.

[PunkMaister]

A few quick stats to chew on...

GDP per capita:
Cuba $9,500
Puerto Rico $17,800

Real GDP growth rate:
Cuba +4.30%
Puerto Rico -2.00%

Literacy rate:
Cuba 99.8%
Puerto Rico 94.1%

Life expectancy:
Cuba 77.45
Puerto Rico 78.53

Infant mortality:
Cuba 5.82
Puerto Rico 8.42

Death rate:
Cuba 7.24
Puerto Rico 7.75

The thing about Cuba and Puerto Rico is that it's impossible to compare how the two have done without talking about the elephant looming over the Carribean: Their neighbor, and the dominant economic force in the region, the United States. Cuba has been under embargo by the US; Puerto Rico has been supported by the US.

Are Puerto Ricans wealthier because they have embraced the free market, or because they have been closely tied to the wealthiest single nation on Earth? Scientifically speaking, it's not a great control case.

The answer to your question is a combination of both. Yes we are tied to the wealthiest nation of the world and we are even it's citizens by birth since 1917. But that alone is not the reason. It is also the fact that in the 50's as I explained we embraced an aggressive Capitalist Industrialization program. Otherwise how would you explain that Puerto Rico before that was about the poorest island in the Caribbean poorer than Haiti in fact at that time and how we went from zero to what we are now? We became a US territory at the end of the 19th century but the Island remained largely impoverished until 1948 when operation Bootstrap was set in motion.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Really now? Even though it has brought the highest standards of living ever known?

You know, it's all relative, and certainly depends on who we're talking about.

[Praeothmin]

Just a few remarks:

Even though it has brought the highest standards of living ever known?

For whom?
I'm sure the majority of the residents have benifited from this, but how much of the actual industrial capital is owned by Puerto Ricans?

According to your link, "Operacion Manos a la Obra" (I prefer the Spanish name) has made it easier for "ouside" capital to be injected in the country, and:

Although initially touted as an economic miracle, by the 1960s, Operation Bootstrap was increasingly hampered by a growing unemployment problem . As living standards and wages rose, manpower-intensive industries faced competition from outside the United States.

So, basically, without the US, Puerto Rico would not be as successful.
If, say, Cuba had had the same support from the US, I'm sure they would be better off as well.

I prefer a "controlled Capitalism" myself, where laws regulate trade, and controls are put into place to save us from what has just happened in the USA, and which is also now felt everywhere in the World.
I can say that Canada was not as affected by this problem, even though our Economy depends a lot on our US exportations, because our internal economy is controlled.
If the US had had the same control systems we have, then this entire economic problem could have been avoided, or at the most, be far less intense then it currently is...

[PunkMaister]

Really now? Even though it has brought the highest standards of living ever known?

You know, it's all relative, and certainly depends on who we're talking about.

Wow, just wow! Do you realize that the very Personal computer, Laptop or Notebook computer that you are using right now came about only as a result of free enterprise? So did your cell phone and so on? And you want to throw away free enterprise because you think is a failure? Get real!

For whom?
I'm sure the majority of the residents have benifited from this, but how much of the actual industrial capital is owned by Puerto Ricans?

According to your link, "Operacion Manos a la Obra" (I prefer the Spanish name) has made it easier for "ouside" capital to be injected in the country, and:

Although initially touted as an economic miracle, by the 1960s, Operation Bootstrap was increasingly hampered by a growing unemployment problem . As living standards and wages rose, manpower-intensive industries faced competition from outside the United States.

So, basically, without the US, Puerto Rico would not be as successful.
If, say, Cuba had had the same support from the US, I'm sure they would be better off as well.

I prefer a "controlled Capitalism" myself, where laws regulate trade, and controls are put into place to save us from what has just happened in the USA, and which is also now felt everywhere in the World.
I can say that Canada was not as affected by this problem, even though our Economy depends a lot on our US exportations, because our internal economy is controlled.
If the US had had the same control systems we have, then this entire economic problem could have been avoided, or at the most, be far less intense then it currently is...

And this post exemplifies how the liberal socialist left constantly ignore facts.

Let's review those facts shall we?

1. That Puerto Rico is a US territory and we are American citizens from birth since 1917 alone does not bring improvement in the quality of life of the people in the Island it was only after "Operation Bootsrap (Operacion manos a la obra)" that the unprecedented progress and quality of life improvement came about. Cuba was a capitalist country that then was turned into a communist one and all the American Enterprise was kicked off the island. Even with Obama's overtures the Cuban regime has no intentions of doing any kind of business with the US other than to collect whatever money is sent their way to sustain their regime. Why would anyone sane even want to support such a regime? A Regime that brought the world closer than ever than any other one to Armageddon during the Cuban missile crisis. Other than Obama who just got slapped in the face by the regime he is also getting slapped by just about every terrorist organization, criminal syndicates (the mob) in the face of this planet.

2. The US for quite a while had a system of checks and balances called Antitrust law. the law was supposed to protect against monopolization and th creation of oligarchies and while properly enforced it did just that but in the last few decades the Antitrust law's noose was laxed to the point that it became virtually null. As a result Monopolization and Oligarchies raised their ugly faces stifling competition and little by little drowning what up till then had been a vibrant, healthy and competitive capitalist system.

[ILikeDeathNote]

A few quick stats to chew on...

GDP per capita:
Cuba $9,500
Puerto Rico $17,800

Real GDP growth rate:
Cuba +4.30%
Puerto Rico -2.00%

Literacy rate:
Cuba 99.8%
Puerto Rico 94.1%

Life expectancy:
Cuba 77.45
Puerto Rico 78.53

Infant mortality:
Cuba 5.82
Puerto Rico 8.42

Death rate:
Cuba 7.24
Puerto Rico 7.75

The thing about Cuba and Puerto Rico is that it's impossible to compare how the two have done without talking about the elephant looming over the Carribean: Their neighbor, and the dominant economic force in the region, the United States. Cuba has been under embargo by the US; Puerto Rico has been supported by the US.

Are Puerto Ricans wealthier because they have embraced the free market, or because they have been closely tied to the wealthiest single nation on Earth? Scientifically speaking, it's not a great control case.

Also keep in mind that the stats you listed are so over the place it doesn't seem like any reasonable conclusion can be arrived at regarding which island is quantitatively or qualitatively "better."

[PunkMaister]

Also keep in mind that the stats you listed are so over the place it doesn't seem like any reasonable conclusion can be arrived at regarding which island is quantitatively or qualitatively "better."

Your reasoning aptitude astounds me! Even if you take those cold hard statistics to heart. (I do not believe for a second the stats on Cuba's economic growth) what makes Puerto Rico better and infinitely so is the fact that we are free and they are not! I can open my mouth and say the Governor and the president are ass holes without fear of being thrown in Jail, horribly tortured and quite possibly executed for it which is what would happen in Cuba. Just FYI...

[Jedi Master Spock]

Your reasoning aptitude astounds me! Even if you take those cold hard statistics to heart. (I do not believe for a second the stats on Cuba's economic growth) what makes Puerto Rico better and infinitely so is the fact that we are free and they are not! I can open my mouth and say the Governor and the president are ass holes without fear of being thrown in Jail, horribly tortured and quite possibly executed for it which is what would happen in Cuba. Just FYI...

The GDP figures are straight off the CIA World Factbook. I believe them.

Cuba did go through a very major recession when the Soviet Union bit the dust. FWIW, the fact that Puerto Rico is going through a recession right now is for the similar reason that the US is going through a recession, and Puerto Rico's fortunes are tied to the US. The reason why Cuba experienced moderate growth in the last year? They had a healthy economy going that was, by and large, independent of the US banking system.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Really now? Even though it has brought the highest standards of living ever known?

You know, it's all relative, and certainly depends on who we're talking about.

Wow, just wow! Do you realize that the very Personal computer, Laptop or Notebook computer that you are using right now came about only as a result of free enterprise? So did your cell phone and so on? And you want to throw away free enterprise because you think is a failure? Get real!

It's just such an amalgam, I don't know where to start from. Like, for example, the idea that high technology would have not appeared in a much more fair society.
My idea is that a fair society would have actually let science bloom in favour of the people. You wouldn't have everything hold by the atrocious patent system, up to plants and parts of the human DNA.
Or like the fact that I could live without computers if I knew it would end wars, course for profit and control of natural resources, healthcash industry and food at the expense of so many millions and millions of people.
The saddening part of all is that you have been made to believe that what you got was a blissful dream.

[PunkMaister]

Cuba did go through a very major recession when the Soviet Union bit the dust. FWIW, the fact that Puerto Rico is going through a recession right now is for the similar reason that the US is going through a recession, and Puerto Rico's fortunes are tied to the US. The reason why Cuba experienced moderate growth in the last year? They had a healthy economy going that was, by and large, independent of the US banking system.

Actually is because the Ties they now have with Chavez's Venezuela. Chavez have given the Cuban regime an influx of much needed cash and more importantly cheap oil. Still they suffer from nightly power outtages though. The power never goes down for the presidential palace or regime official buildings (off course)