Slavery In the Star Wars Universe

[Mike DiCenso]

While scanning the latest Darths and Droids comic, I decided to poke into the Irregular Webcomic's forum to see what readers were discussing. Interestingly enough I found this thread examining the existence of slavery in Star Wars, in particular, the use of droids who are sentient and likely sapient as well, too, and the use of the Jango Fett clones by the Galactic Republic as a form of slavery in it's own right to fight their war against the Separatists, and all despite the Republic having laws against such things.

So, what do all of you think? Is this a clear cut case of slavery in the supposedly benign Galactic Republic, never mind the fascist dictatorship of the Galactic Empire, which allegedly enslaved many former members of the Old Republic, such as the Wookies, or the Hutts in the Outer Rim Territories, who routinely made use of slaves, such as Anakin Skywalker and his mother Shmi.
-Mike

[Roondar]

While scanning the latest Darths and Droids comic, I decided to poke into the Irregular Webcomic's forum to see what readers were discussing. Interestingly enough I found this thread examining the existence of slavery in Star Wars, in particular, the use of droids who are sentient and likely sapient as well, too, and the use of the Jango Fett clones by the Galactic Republic as a form of slavery in it's own right to fight their war against the Separatists, and all despite the Republic having laws against such things.

So, what do all of you think? Is this a clear cut case of slavery in the supposedly benign Galactic Republic, never mind the fascist dictatorship of the Galactic Empire, which allegedly enslaved many former members of the Old Republic, such as the Wookies, or the Hutts in the Outer Rim Territories, who routinely made use of slaves, such as Anakin Skywalker and his mother Shmi.
-Mike

I never considered the clones being slaves. But you do have a point, they where basically 'bred and trained' to do war for their masters. This is awfully close to actual slavery in my mind.

Droids are more difficult. There is plenty of scientific research done today that points towards many, many more animals having sentience than was believed only a few decades ago. Yet, even with this knowledge humanity still uses animals for food, clothes and labour. Me myself included.

The ethical difficulty obviously lies in the fact that droids are, more so than our animals, created to serve and are (no matter how sentient or sapient) still machines rolling of an assembly belt. Even though most of them do need a restraining device to keep them following orders (which points towards unwillingness to serve)

Where does the line become too blurred? I'm not 100% certain. An example against this attitude is found in Startrek with Data being (albeit after a trial) seen as a lifeform with all the rights of the average man/woman.

And yet, in the very same series there exist computers capable of projecting sentient lifeforms (such as the holographic doctor). This implies the computers themselves might also be sentient (otherwise how can they create sentient thinking software). They also act by far too intelligent for mere programmed behaviour (as a very low-down example: consider that these computers are so intelligent you can ask them to write their software for you based on very broad parameters. Another example is the ever-fascinating Startrek doors. The opening and closing thereof happens so intelligently one can but wonder how the computer knows when to do so). These computer are seen as nothing more than tools though.

In fact, the more I think of it, the more I'm convinced that the real 'magic' in ST and SW lies more in their computers/robots than their FTL-drives and overpowered weapons/energy systems.

[Praeothmin]

But you do have a point, they where basically 'bred and trained' to do war for their masters. This is awfully close to actual slavery in my mind.

Exactly.
They aren't paid, have no choice in the matter and the Republic can pretty much do whatever they want with them.
They're slaves all right...

The ethical difficulty obviously lies in the fact that droids are, more so than our animals, created to serve and are (no matter how sentient or sapient) still machines rolling of an assembly belt. Even though most of them do need a restraining device to keep them following orders (which points towards unwillingness to serve)

Droids not following orders is akin to your PC "jamming" after being turned on for a while.
Usually, a good "reboot", or a "formatting and reghosting" will be needed.
Droids are basically walking, moving computers, so it's also logical to expect them to need to be "rebooted" once in a while.
except if they work on windows, where you'll want to install Firefox and any other Firewall then windows... :)

An example against this attitude is found in Startrek with Data being (albeit after a trial) seen as a lifeform with all the rights of the average man/woman.

That was because Data had evolved, and by mistake.
Data evolved by making choices that led to his evolving, thus sentience.
R2's quirks, while making him appear more "human", can be erased and he would still be as efficient as ever, because he's basically an R2 unit.
A "raided", "over-clocked" R2 unit, but an R2 unit nonetheless... :)

Another example is the ever-fascinating Startrek doors. The opening and closing thereof happens so intelligently one can but wonder how the computer knows when to do so). These computer are seen as nothing more than tools though.

We have those today:
They're called "Passcards".
Swipe your card in front of a reader, and the door will unlock if you have the "right" to go in that room.
Add and automated door that opens when you're supposed to, and there you go.
The combadge probably serves as a passcard, allowing the doors' detectors to "read" the signal emitted by the badge which basically says:
"I'mcomingnearyouandIhavetherighttobeheresoopenthedoorthankyou!"

:)

[Roondar]

We have those today:
They're called "Passcards".
Swipe your card in front of a reader, and the door will unlock if you have the "right" to go in that room.
Add and automated door that opens when you're supposed to, and there you go.
The combadge probably serves as a passcard, allowing the doors' detectors to "read" the signal emitted by the badge which basically says:
"I'mcomingnearyouandIhavetherighttobeheresoopenthedoorthankyou!"

:)

That doesn't explain how the ST doors know when you want to merely walk right up to the door without opening it and when you really want to leave. That was the intelligent part, not the auto-opening/closing ;)


Secondly, I'm not agreeing with you on the droid issues. They are definitely more than just mindless automatons. The restraining bolt isn't put on to stop them from crashing but to stop them from doing what they want to do themselves. SW droids are presented as having minds of their own. All of them, not just R2.

[Praeothmin]

That doesn't explain how the ST doors know when you want to merely walk right up to the door without opening it and when you really want to leave. That was the intelligent part, not the auto-opening/closing ;)

That's easy:
It reads your mind... :)
I agree those doors are very advanced, but I merely wanted to point out that we have something similar today, so I have no trouble imagining that future doors have body language and audio sensors that can analyze and interpret your grunt as wanting to leave, Rikers leading shoulder as wanting to go through the door, etc...

Secondly, I'm not agreeing with you on the droid issues. They are definitely more than just mindless automatons. The restraining bolt isn't put on to stop them from crashing but to stop them from doing what they want to do themselves. SW droids are presented as having minds of their own. All of them, not just R2.

I'm sorry, but my computer also has a mind of its own.
It misplaces my documents, doesn't save them when I want it to, or where I want it to, and arbitrarily decides which ports it will occupy and deny me (the last one is true)... :)
Seriously though, I really don't think you may qualify the SW droids as truly sentient, or even as Data sentient.
C3P0, for all his apparent "human feelings" was nothing more then a Protocol Droid, and never showed any inclination to change, or learn something unrelated to protocols, or capable of wondering "why" it was.
Data was.
Data wanted to learn, wanted to improve himself, constantly thrived to understand humans and what drove us "biological entities" to act the way we did.
C3P0 didn't.
Is what I mean clear?

[Mike DiCenso]

I would not agree that the average laptop or desktop computer that we use in Real Life is sentient, never mind it being sapient. A computer as we have them today cannot feel or react to pain or similar stimuli, and there is no proof that any computer as we know them now can demonstrate wisdom; that is making choices on their own, and change things about them.

In Star Trek, while data does not actually feel pain per se, unless he has his emotion chip installed and turned on, or the Borg are giving him skin grafts, which would render Data a partial sentient. He does, however, demonstrate remarkable wisdom at times, and makes every attempt to evolve and change as a person.

Threepio, and many other SW droids, certainly meet the basic qualifications, including being made to feel pain amd emotion of fear as well as understand it sufficiently that torture (as seen in RoTJ) is a viable means of punishment. Artoo meets all definitions, though he doesn't quite meet the same level of sapience as Data does. Threepio fears being shot, or his memory wiped. I don't think home computers In Real Life do. So at the very least, SW droids are sentient, if not sapient.
-Mike

[Roondar]

That doesn't explain how the ST doors know when you want to merely walk right up to the door without opening it and when you really want to leave. That was the intelligent part, not the auto-opening/closing ;)

That's easy:
It reads your mind... :)
I agree those doors are very advanced, but I merely wanted to point out that we have something similar today, so I have no trouble imagining that future doors have body language and audio sensors that can analyze and interpret your grunt as wanting to leave, Rikers leading shoulder as wanting to go through the door, etc...

The point was, obviously, that those doors are only the low end of the magic their computers perform. Some of the higher end stuff (crewmembers asking open-ended, vague questions and the computer actually understanding what they mean most of the time) is seriously beyond the reach of what we'd still call a computer in the general sense. Never mind that it's not just doing this for one person but happily assists a crew numbering into the hundreds.

Secondly, I'm not agreeing with you on the droid issues. They are definitely more than just mindless automatons. The restraining bolt isn't put on to stop them from crashing but to stop them from doing what they want to do themselves. SW droids are presented as having minds of their own. All of them, not just R2.

I'm sorry, but my computer also has a mind of its own.
It misplaces my documents, doesn't save them when I want it to, or where I want it to, and arbitrarily decides which ports it will occupy and deny me (the last one is true)... :)

There is a stark difference between programs with bugs and droids who refuse to listen because they'd rather have their old master back.

Trust me, I'm somewhat of an expert when it comes to computers and ICT and mine never did that. Nor did any of my programs decide that one person was nicer to help than another ;)

Seriously though, I really don't think you may qualify the SW droids as truly sentient, or even as Data sentient.
C3P0, for all his apparent "human feelings" was nothing more then a Protocol Droid, and never showed any inclination to change, or learn something unrelated to protocols, or capable of wondering "why" it was.
Data was.
Data wanted to learn, wanted to improve himself, constantly thrived to understand humans and what drove us "biological entities" to act the way we did.
C3P0 didn't.
Is what I mean clear?

Riddle me this then: if a bird species which has no desire to ever be more than a bird or even improve himself is seen by scientists as sentient (well, these days anyway) - why then would a droid not be?

Because it's a machine?

C3PO even talks about himself and the stuff he goes through. That is pretty damning evidence in favour of him being sentient.

Then there is the problem that the ST computers can actually create sentient holograms (i.e. moriarty, the doctor) on demand. One of them was even created by merely asking for an opponent in a game. This is downright absurd from a real-life point of view, but it does point (together with a whole string of other evidence) towards ST computers being a bit more than just a collection of programs.

Sure, the crew doesn't see it as such and the computer sure as hell doesn't complain but think it through: a starship computer can create and maintain a fully sentient (or at any rate so close to sentient no one can see the difference anymore) being. Not only that, but the implication made in case of Moriarty is that the Enterprise-D computer itself is the one reasoning and attempting to outwit Data.

That this led to a sentient hologram is a nice bit of storytelling, but the mere fact the computer aboard the Enterprise-D is even capable of such a feat requires it to have a form of intelligence itself. Programmed or otherwise.


Apologies for the ranting nature of this post, ICT technology and specifically software is my job so I kind of get carried away when I think about what Sci-fi computers are actually doing ;)

[Mike DiCenso]

But you do have a point, they where basically 'bred and trained' to do war for their masters. This is awfully close to actual slavery in my mind.

Exactly.
They aren't paid, have no choice in the matter and the Republic can pretty much do whatever they want with them.
They're slaves all right...

More specifically, we hear in the TCW series from the Clones themselves that they're "just clones" and considered "expendable". In addition to that, these men are programed right from the get go. Take Order 66 for instance, which basically makes them turn on friends and mentors (the Jedi generals leading them) as soon as it is activated in them by Palpatine. Sounds hardly like they are treated any better than a droid.
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

As I recall something similar happened in Trek when it came to Holographic doctors eventually they became sentient yet remained essentially and for all intended purposes as slaves until the Voyager Doctor changed all that much latter on...

[Mike DiCenso]

There have been numerous times throughout modern Trek from TNG through Voyager where the issues of machine rights have been addressed from TNG's "The Measure of a Man" to VOY's "Author, Author". In each case, be it Data or the EMH, the was some some litigation enacted to recognize their rights as sentient (rather sapient) beings. I honestly can't imagine Threepio or Artoo getting similar hearings, if they were to challenge having their memory wiped by one of their masters.
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

There have been numerous times throughout modern Trek from TNG through Voyager where the issues of machine rights have been addressed from TNG's "The Measure of a Man" to VOY's "Author, Author". In each case, be it Data or the EMH, the was some some litigation enacted to recognize their rights as sentient (rather sapient) beings. I honestly can't imagine Threepio or Artoo getting similar hearings, if they were to challenge having their memory wiped by one of their masters.
-Mike

Anakin in the Clone Wars TV series is the only one that has given them that sort of consideration before he fell to the Dark side off course. Not even Luke his own son had such regards for droids sadly...

[Roondar]

As I recall something similar happened in Trek when it came to Holographic doctors eventually they became sentient yet remained essentially and for all intended purposes as slaves until the Voyager Doctor changed all that much latter on...

Wasn't Voyagers EMH the first?

On a sidenote, I can't actually recall any subplot about Voyagers EMH saving the other EMH's from well, slavery. Did I miss that?

[Praeothmin]

Roondar, Mike,
After reading the definition for Sentience and Sapience on Wikipedia, I have to conceed that the droids in SW do indeed seem possessed of sentience, and even sapience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapience

It seems, as Inigo Montoya once said, that:
"I do not think the word means what you think it means!"

:)

[GStone]

For me, they are capable of sapience and sentience. There are programs that learn and there are programs that can have a perspective.

On the other hand, a person's dna (specifically in regards to thinking and the nervous system) doesn't equate to the programming of a robot. The question becomes if a robot can choose something that is not dictated to by its programming. DNA provides a 'playground' for experiences to be categorized, but the categorizing is not based on the DNA or its resultant expression/manifestation. The most it can do is create situations for reactions to external stimuli, but not the choice to continue with the stimuli or choose another.

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

I haven't read most of the posts in the thread, so forgive me if I repeat something that has already been stated.

SW droids' personalities are, with R2 as a possible exception, programmed. Everything they feel and think is because of their programming.

For example, in Star Wars Legacy of the Force book 9 Inferno(man, that is an impossibly long title) there is a passage that mentions that R9 droids are programmed with a goal of self preservation(makes sense, given their job) and not one of self awareness. This suggests that what we are seeing is not true sentience, but just another part of their programming. They cannot, generally, become anything other than what they were made to be. That is not sentience, even if it resembles it.

Yes, the Clone army was a form of slavery, but they were brought into existence for the very purpose of serving the Republic, and were "programmed" not to be independent or even fully sentient, as they couldn't really think for themselves. They had to follow orders, it is what they needed to do, maybe even wanted to do. These measures were taken to make it easier on the clone as well as easier for purchaser.

Yes, it was a form of slavery, but it was, perhaps, more humane than most. Also, it must be remembered that it was brought into being being by Dooku and Palpatine, not by the Republic. When it presented itself, Palpatine forced it upon the Senate with his emergency powers, so, it wasn't really sanctioned by the Republic. The Jedi, however...

That is a bit different.