Interphasic Cloak

[Mike DiCenso]

Now you get it but to be fair we know from both Star Trek and Stargate that phasing does not completely eliminate interactivity between the phased object/individual and unphased matter but that it does a much more reduced capacity one would still have to proof it can phase thru really thick armor and so on but the concept is very much sound, it is believed that Drones in Stargate work in a fashion like this at least partially. It might explain their impressive penetrating abilities...

I think it depends largely on what you are trying to do with the phase cloak, at least from a Trek standpoint since the E-D while using the illegal Pegasus phase cloak seemed to be not only able to pass through kilometers of an asteroid's rock with ease, but once outside the asteroid it remained undetected by a Romulan warbird dispite being less than a couple kilometers right in front of it. The same was true of Ro and Geordi in "The Next Phase". It took extremely high levels of interactions with normal phase matter to leave behind technobabble chroniton particles for them to be detected. When a phase cloaked individual is still trying to maintain some level of interactivity with normal phase space and time, that is when they seem to be more vunerable.
-Mike

I think you misunderstand me, my point is if either Geordi in ST or Sam and Mitchell in SG had been totally out of phase with zero interactivity with unphased matter they would have suffocated as they do not have any air that is phased for them to breathe especially in the case of Geordi at least in the case of Sam and Mitchell they might have lasted a few minutes until the phased air in the house they phased ran out, get it now? Not too mention that if they did not interact at all then gravity would no longer have an effect on them either.

I think you missed mine. But that issue can be gotten around with the wearing of an environmental suit, if you're talking the need to completely phase out a person, including equipping them with a thruster pack so they can move about. As for ships, well the ship provides the life-support environment for the crew.
-Mike

[PunkMaister]

I think it depends largely on what you are trying to do with the phase cloak, at least from a Trek standpoint since the E-D while using the illegal Pegasus phase cloak seemed to be not only able to pass through kilometers of an asteroid's rock with ease, but once outside the asteroid it remained undetected by a Romulan warbird dispite being less than a couple kilometers right in front of it. The same was true of Ro and Geordi in "The Next Phase". It took extremely high levels of interactions with normal phase matter to leave behind technobabble chroniton particles for them to be detected. When a phase cloaked individual is still trying to maintain some level of interactivity with normal phase space and time, that is when they seem to be more vunerable.
-Mike

I think you misunderstand me, my point is if either Geordi in ST or Sam and Mitchell in SG had been totally out of phase with zero interactivity with unphased matter they would have suffocated as they do not have any air that is phased for them to breathe especially in the case of Geordi at least in the case of Sam and Mitchell they might have lasted a few minutes until the phased air in the house they phased ran out, get it now? Not too mention that if they did not interact at all then gravity would no longer have an effect on them either.

I think you missed mine. But that issue can be gotten around with the wearing of an environmental suit, if you're talking the need to completely phase out a person, including equipping them with a thruster pack so they can move about. As for ships, well the ship provides the life-support environment for the crew.
-Mike

Maybe so but neither Geordi in ST or Sam and Mitchell in SG were using such environmental wardrobe. True theoretically one could completely phase out like that but so far in neither show that has been visibly the case not that it does not mean it could not happen, frankly I see no reason why not. However when it comes to vs debates the visual canonical data does not provide for a totally phased out ship or personnel.
And even solid rock is not the same as heavy thick armor. Densities and mass would be different for each. All those things have to be taken into account.

Still even if one say manages to penetrate deep into an ISDs armor and detonate powerful explosives in it's hull it would end up being probably pockmarked like Swiss cheese! ;)

[The Corporal]

Actually, in TNG's "The Next Phase", Ro Laren, Geordi, and the romulan who were all stranded out of phase, did not require any power source to keep them that way, and there was nothing to indicate there was a massive power surge to put them in the interphase condition in the first place.

Fair enough.

So too can a torpedo. In the case of Trek weapons, a self-destruct mechanism was referenced for a torpedo in the episode "Genesis" [TNG, Season 7].

Personally I consider the risk to be too much to take. If the torpedo destruct doesn't work you can't do much. If the ship one fails, you can at least smash the thing with a hammer or set fire to the ship.

Because if they are resourceful enough, they can go off somewhere else and reestablish themselves, or as was the case with the Jem'Hadar, if anything happned to the Founders, they would go on a rampage against whomever was responsible until they died, or were killed.
-Mike

And if you’re shadowing them all the way, that is next to impossible. Let's be honest here, a working fleet wide phase cloak would revolutionise warfare in Trek. You would be free to strike anywhere at anytime you chose and the enemy wouldn't know you where there. The Dominion could try to establish itself only to have its new outpost destroyed and its fleet in orbit obliterated with no warning.

The Jemmies would likely just kill themselves though.

[Mike DiCenso]

Personally I consider the risk to be too much to take. If the torpedo destruct doesn't work you can't do much. If the ship one fails, you can at least smash the thing with a hammer or set fire to the ship.

True, though it is unlikely and if you set your sights on total annihilation, or subjugation of the enemy that should not be a problem.

Because if they are resourceful enough, they can go off somewhere else and reestablish themselves, or as was the case with the Jem'Hadar, if anything happned to the Founders, they would go on a rampage against whomever was responsible until they died, or were killed.
-Mike

And if you’re shadowing them all the way, that is next to impossible. Let's be honest here, a working fleet wide phase cloak would revolutionise warfare in Trek. You would be free to strike anywhere at anytime you chose and the enemy wouldn't know you where there. The Dominion could try to establish itself only to have its new outpost destroyed and its fleet in orbit obliterated with no warning.

Which is more or less what I said. You can't leave the enemy fleets alone. At some point you have to deal with those. I agree that tackling the fleets are a waste since if there is a large enough industrial capability, then they can just keep throwing ships at you as the Dominion did. But if you can first destroy their logistical and industrial capacity first, then dealing with the fleets becomes much easier.

The Jemmies would likely just kill themselves though.

They'd be looking for revenge long before they committed suicide.
-Mike

[The Corporal]

They'd be looking for revenge long before they committed suicide.
-Mike

Didn't that bunch off themselves in The Ship because they allowed a Founder to die?

[Mike DiCenso]

They'd be looking for revenge long before they committed suicide.
-Mike

Didn't that bunch off themselves in The Ship because they allowed a Founder to die?

That was under a specific set of circumstances. But in "Improbable Cause" and "The Die is Cast", the death of all of the Founders would have lead Jem'Hadar going on a revenge rampage in the Alpha quadrant until they eventually would have died when their Ketracel white supplies ran out.
-Mike

[The Corporal]

That was under a specific set of circumstances. But in "Improbable Cause" and "The Die is Cast", the death of all of the Founders would have lead Jem'Hadar going on a revenge rampage in the Alpha quadrant until they eventually would have died when their Ketracel white supplies ran out.
-Mike

Hmmm....a bunch of crazed drug addicts going on a killing frenzy. I don't consider that to be all that bad actually. We already know that lack of white makes them twitchy.

I'd be more concerned about the Vorta to be honest, their actually commanding these guys.

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, and the Vorta could easily step in and continue on in the Founder's name, keeping the Jem'Hadar and Vorta cloning facilities going elsewhere and manufacturing more Ketracel. It becomes more imperative that you destroy those fleets to prevent that happening.
-Mike

[The Corporal]

Yes, and the Vorta could easily step in and continue on in the Founder's name, keeping the Jem'Hadar and Vorta cloning facilities going elsewhere and manufacturing more Ketracel. It becomes more imperative that you destroy those fleets to prevent that happening.
-Mike

Except the Jemmies don't trust the Vorta, that was made quite clear over the course of the series. I'm not dsiputing that you will need to deal with the ships eventually. I'm saying you can do so at the time of your choosing and at an advantage, once the fleets support has been cut off.

[Jedi Master Spock]

The flip side of being able to be damaged by weapons of just the right phase is that you can shoot out of a phase cloak. And while your opponent is in a position of guessing the phase to tune their phasers to, you know exactly what your target phase is.

Now, granted, there could be a lot of limits on the utility of phase cloaks that we haven't seen, but from what we have seen, phase cloaks are a very powerful technology. Presumably there's a nice blanket counter to phase cloaks, too, that tends to happen in the Trekverse, but it still would have many interesting uses. Such as hiding an entire fleet "on top of" one unphased ship.

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes, and the Vorta could easily step in and continue on in the Founder's name, keeping the Jem'Hadar and Vorta cloning facilities going elsewhere and manufacturing more Ketracel. It becomes more imperative that you destroy those fleets to prevent that happening.
-Mike

Except the Jemmies don't trust the Vorta, that was made quite clear over the course of the series. I'm not dsiputing that you will need to deal with the ships eventually. I'm saying you can do so at the time of your choosing and at an advantage, once the fleets support has been cut off.

The Vorta are probably kept in a state of mistrust with the JHs by the Founders to prevent that from happening. Of course, the Vorta could have a clause to be able to lead the JH into one last battle in the advent of the Founder's being destroyed against whomever is the culprit.

But other than that, I'm in agreement with you on the the method of using the phase cloak on a strategic level. Cut off the head so to speak, then kill the body.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

The flip side of being able to be damaged by weapons of just the right phase is that you can shoot out of a phase cloak. And while your opponent is in a position of guessing the phase to tune their phasers to, you know exactly what your target phase is.

Now, granted, there could be a lot of limits on the utility of phase cloaks that we haven't seen, but from what we have seen, phase cloaks are a very powerful technology. Presumably there's a nice blanket counter to phase cloaks, too, that tends to happen in the Trekverse, but it still would have many interesting uses. Such as hiding an entire fleet "on top of" one unphased ship.

The one big tactical advantage of phase cloaks over conventional cloaks is that if the enemy cannot lock onto your phase variance, then you are essentially invulnerable, and no matter how they shoot at you, you aren't likely to be hurt, giving you the advantage of choosing where and when to launch your attack, and you can do so at any time.
-Mike

[enigma]

Maybe so but neither Geordi in ST or Sam and Mitchell in SG were using such environmental wardrobe. True theoretically one could completely phase out like that but so far in neither show that has been visibly the case not that it does not mean it could not happen, frankly I see no reason why not. However when it comes to vs debates the visual canonical data does not provide for a totally phased out ship or personnel.
And even solid rock is not the same as heavy thick armor. Densities and mass would be different for each. All those things have to be taken into account.

Still even if one say manages to penetrate deep into an ISDs armor and detonate powerful explosives in it's hull it would end up being probably pockmarked like Swiss cheese! ;)

Dude, Geordi and Ro were phased in an unphased ship. That is why they'd have a limited amount of air. If the E-D was also phased then they'd have the use of the ship's life support.

As for the ISD, using the IC would not guarantee that they'd be able to enter the ship as (as far as I know) it has shielding that is interdimensional in nature. So, you might just bounce off them thus announcing yourself. :)

[PunkMaister]

Dude, Geordi and Ro were phased in an unphased ship. That is why they'd have a limited amount of air. If the E-D was also phased then they'd have the use of the ship's life support.

As for the ISD, using the IC would not guarantee that they'd be able to enter the ship as (as far as I know) it has shielding that is interdimensional in nature. So, you might just bounce off them thus announcing yourself. :)

But they did not have such limited supply in fact they were breathing unphased air.

That is assuming those shields would stop phased matter since we do not have any example of this in Star Wars is all a big question mark.

[enigma]

Dude, Geordi and Ro were phased in an unphased ship. That is why they'd have a limited amount of air. If the E-D was also phased then they'd have the use of the ship's life support.

As for the ISD, using the IC would not guarantee that they'd be able to enter the ship as (as far as I know) it has shielding that is interdimensional in nature. So, you might just bounce off them thus announcing yourself. :)

But they did not have such limited supply in fact they were breathing unphased air.

That is assuming those shields would stop phased matter since we do not have any example of this in Star Wars is all a big question mark.

So at least in Trek then, they can stay phased as long as the ship's life support functions.