Are Trekkies ashamed of a Federation with no commerce?

[Mr. Oragahn]

It seems, to me, that as a response to a constant criticism, notably from Warsies, Trekkies have attempted their best to find proof of commerce within the Federation and took pride in it.

But is it that bad to have an advanced Federation free of any form of commerce, where when you need something, you have it easily because it can produced with cheap and clean energy, and likely provided thanks to synthetizers?

Why the shame, really?

[The Corporal]

It seems, to me, that as a response to a constant criticism, notably from Warsies, Trekkies have attempted their best to find proof of commerce within the Federation and took pride in it.

There's obviously some trade and commerce going on, Mike points out that the Vulcans are running a sort of merchant marine in the thread below this one, Yates worked for some race hauling cargo, there was the automated frieghter in TOS, the obscenly rich (or soon to be) miners that found momma Horta.

They may not be paying for the stuff in money as we define it today but there's obviously something going on there.

But is it that bad to have an advanced Federation free of any form of commerce, where when you need something, you have it easily because it can produced with cheap and clean energy, and likely provided thanks to synthetizers?

Why the shame, really?

Maybe it's because the communist governmnts in RL turned out to be failures? Even they had money though.

Ultimately though if you like the franchise and you get some entertainment out of it there really isn't much to be ashamed of, unless your worried about your e-weiner looking smaller or something.

[l33telboi]

I certainly don't have anything against the idea of a Federation without commerce like we have today. People seem to jump to the idea that no commerce equals communism, but there are some pretty major difference between the UFP and communism. The biggest one? The system the UFP uses obviously works. For the most part this pro-capitalism thing seems to be more obsessed about by people living on the western hemisphere of the planet. And I guess it's also understandable why the extreme negativity with anything that even resembles communism would come from there as well.

[The Corporal]

I certainly don't have anything against the idea of a Federation without commerce like we have today. People seem to jump to the idea that no commerce equals communism, but there are some pretty major difference between the UFP and communism. The biggest one? The system the UFP uses obviously works. For the most part this pro-capitalism thing seems to be more obsessed about by people living on the western hemisphere of the planet. And I guess it's also understandable why the extreme negativity with anything that even resembles communism would come from there as well.

It may just be highly regulated, as we found out recently unfettered capitalism isn't the greatest idea in the world. I view them more as socialist myself, though I've noticed that a great many people seem to have a problem distinguishing the two.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Maybe it's because the communist governmnts in RL turned out to be failures? Even they had money though.

Ultimately though if you like the franchise and you get some entertainment out of it there really isn't much to be ashamed of, unless your worried about your e-weiner looking smaller or something.

I'd wager that the pseudo-communism we saw in the USSR was nothing more than the forced result of cutting monarchy's head off to instill a mass of cheap proletarian work supplemented by little rights and a probably a decent amount of stupid taxes.
It would have been, in other words, nothing more than another form of outrageous capitalism.

Now, I can understand an eventual form of commerce for resources which cannot be reproduced via synthetizers, although commerce is a sine qua non system where there has to be an exchange, not a gift.

This is not absolutely bad, as it permits to create a form balance that regulates itself more or less, where a "buffer" would be how production would regulate itself intelligently to meet demand, and reduce overproduction or underproduction.

I don't know how far industries are automatized in Trek though. This seems to be quite a dichotomy, because a necessary labour could only be covered by machines.

[The Corporal]

I'd wager that the pseudo-communism we saw in the USSR was nothing more than the forced result of cutting monarchy's head off to instill a mass of cheap proletarian work supplemented by little rights and a probably a decent amount of stupid taxes.
It would have been, in other words, nothing more than another form of outrageous capitalism.

Now, I can understand an eventual form of commerce for resources which cannot be reproduced via synthetizers, although commerce is a sine qua non system where there has to be an exchange, not a gift.

This is not absolutely bad, as it permits to create a form balance that regulates itself more or less, where a "buffer" would be how production would regulate itself intelligently to meet demand, and reduce overproduction or underproduction.

You've totally lost me now.

I don't know how far industries are automatized in Trek though. This seems to be quite a dichotomy, because a necessary labour could only be covered by machines.

Well we haven't seen much of Federation industry, VOY showed us that they use what are essentially holo-slaves to mine dilitihum but mining was also done by humans in TOS.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You've totally lost me now.

Aside from the question of did we actually see a true communist experience, or just a hoaxed ultra-capitalist venture with a red flag wrapped around, it's up in the air.

The second point was that there could be reasons to keep a form of, I should say, trade, as a very money-less old school system, which is a proven system in fact.

Say a Federation planet produces a special unique spice, and has agreed for fair apportion.

You look for the people who need it as per their culture, religion and medicine, maybe clothing if used as a derivative element.
Then you check the lesser priorities, to those who wish to have it beyond the needs cited above.

You check population numbers and consumption rates deemed reasonable, and you spread it.

Well we haven't seen much of Federation industry, VOY showed us that they use what are essentially holo-slaves to mine dilitihum but mining was also done by humans in TOS.

Wow. Holo-slaves? Kinky thoughts aside, are they smart slaves? Are they conscious?
Couldn't it be done with more primitive machines?
Or is the equivalent of a very specialized holo-droid?

[The Corporal]

Wow. Holo-slaves? Kinky thoughts aside, are they smart slaves? Are they conscious?
Couldn't it be done with more primitive machines?
Or is the equivalent of a very specialized holo-droid?

They where a bunch of EMH's given picks and put in a dilithium mine. They were certainly aware enough of what they where and what was going on to pass the word around about the Doctor's holo-novel.

Aside from the question of did we actually see a true communist experience, or just a hoaxed ultra-capitalist venture with a red flag wrapped around, it's up in the air.

Obviously it wasn't a true communist society, seeing as they had governments, police, money etc. It was more a dictatorship with the trappings of communism. Much like modern China is a capitalist country with communist in the title.

The second point was that there could be reasons to keep a form of, I should say, trade, as a very money-less old school system, which is a proven system in fact.

Say a Federation planet produces a special unique spice, and has agreed for fair apportion.

You look for the people who need it as per their culture, religion and medicine, maybe clothing if used as a derivative element.
Then you check the lesser priorities, to those who wish to have it beyond the needs cited above.

You check population numbers and consumption rates deemed reasonable, and you spread it.

So in other words, a barter system. Which goes along with what we saw Jake go through to get a baseball card for his father or O'Brien trying to a phaser coil or whatever it was he wanted.

[ILikeDeathNote]

People seem to be forgetting at least one key difference between real-life communist countries and the United Federation of Planets:



Replicators

[2046]

The "communism as Other" idea is, I fear, on the wane in Western circles, as recent dismissals of capitalism (on tenuous grounds) may demonstrate.

That said, however, given the seeming not-as-far-leftness of tech-minded Trek fans compared to tech-minded Wars fans, the latter's declaration of communism against the preferred franchise of the former is delightfully Alinsky-esque.

In any case, it is silly for Trek fans to attempt to defend against the communist claim by seeking traces of commerce, e.g. Scotty buying a boat. But seeking traces of capitalism is at least a quasi-valid defense against a communism claim. However, it is better and wiser to argue toward post-scarcity economic models.

[2046]

People seem to be forgetting at least one key difference between real-life communist countries and the United Federation of Planets:



Replicators

Precisely. The replication ideal (which we may reach sooner than we might think, albeit not via the 24th Century model) simply destroys classical economics.

When an object's value is not based on its intricacy and the labor to create it but instead merely on its raw materials or energy content . . . when an iPod and a cigarette lighter cost the same . . . modern economics (whether collectivist or capitalist) is turned on its ear.

[Cocytus]

The "communism as Other" idea is, I fear, on the wane in Western circles, as recent dismissals of capitalism (on tenuous grounds) may demonstrate.

If by "recent dismissals" you're referring to the election cycle just past, it proves only that "communism" is nothing more than one of a million brand-name labels people slap on something in lieu of presenting actual arguments, a hallmark of American politics no matter your ideology. Any further discussion of that should be relegated to the "Other" section of the forum.

The replication technology implies a post-scarcity society, but it has practical limits. It is not like the great machine in Forbidden Planet which can produce, without limit, whatever is needed in response to a thought. Whether the cause is physical or psychological or both, the replicator has limitations on the quality of the goods it produces. Characters frequently comment on the banality and poor quality of replicated food measured against food which has been grown. ("Caretaker" "When it Rains" "Blaze of Glory." Think about it. The replicator has a pattern which it follows, thereby producing the exact same cup of coffee or piece of pizza every single time.) Ergo, while no longer strictly necessary, food and goods produced by traditional means would still occupy a place in the economic system, and those goods would possess a value greater than that of their replicated counterparts. Hence, commerce must still exist within the Federation itself.

The Federation is obviously pro-union ("Bar Association") and possesses a representative democracy in light of the fact that there is a President and a governing body (STIV, STVI, "Homefront" et al.) The limits of the Presidency aren't clear. Jaresh Inyo was president in 2373, and his term had expired before 2375 ("Extreme Measures.")

Strict barter systems in modern societies result from hyperinflation, and while that may have been the case in the aftermath of WW3, the Federation clearly possess some form of currency which has a worth within the Federation and with colonies and potential members. The "credit" was mentioned in "The Trouble with Tribbles" more than once. In "Encounter at Farpoint," Beverly purchases a bolt of cloth from a Bandi merchant which she instructs to have "delivered to our starship when it arrives, charged to Doctor Crusher." My guess is something analagous to a company credit card provided for occasional personal expenditures. The oft-repeated "abolition of money" may point towards the more specific abolition of wage for those in the Federation's employ, which would bely an anarcho-syndicalist bent in their thinking.

[Mr. Oragahn]

People seem to be forgetting at least one key difference between real-life communist countries and the United Federation of Planets:

Replicators

Nope, but I called them synthetizers.

I'd also argue that they are not what makes the difference. What makes the difference is how the work is done.

Robots, synthetizers, it's always a question of exploiting some resources to produce something else.

You could ignore the synthetizers and look for robots only.

[Mike DiCenso]

It seems, to me, that as a response to a constant criticism, notably from Warsies, Trekkies have attempted their best to find proof of commerce within the Federation and took pride in it.

There's obviously some trade and commerce going on, Mike points out that the Vulcans are running a sort of merchant marine in the thread below this one, Yates worked for some race hauling cargo, there was the automated frieghter in TOS, the obscenly rich (or soon to be) miners that found momma Horta.

They may not be paying for the stuff in money as we define it today but there's obviously something going on there.

There's other examples; Vash in "Captain's Holiday", had to pay her way to Risa, for example. The Federation uses a currency called the credit, and DS9 personel frequently made use of the Feregi Gold-pressed latinum, and the Bajorans had a currency of their own called the Lita.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

It seems, to me, that as a response to a constant criticism, notably from Warsies, Trekkies have attempted their best to find proof of commerce within the Federation and took pride in it.

But is it that bad to have an advanced Federation free of any form of commerce, where when you need something, you have it easily because it can produced with cheap and clean energy, and likely provided thanks to synthetizers?

Why the shame, really?

No shame, and I thought this hoary old nonsense had been thoroughly beaten to death a long time ago. It's not the shame of the Federation not having commerce As We Understand It, but rather the shameless way that certain dishonest pro-Wars types try to portray it as if it were Marxist/Leninism Communism, probably as a way to red herring their way out of the fact that the Galactic Empire is a near-total dictatorship, especially after the dissolution of the Senate.
-Mike