Why is Star Wars military tech so poor?

[Mike DiCenso]

Many TLs? By observing the models of the ISD Mk II, what we notice is the absolute lack of features on the underside, safe for a very few spots here and there around the ventral bay, which won't be big enough to accept the heavy TLs, not even what some would call medium TLs.

The models do not tell the entire story; we have seen plenty of times in the movies TL coming from the bottom of the ISD, parts of the dorsal superstructure, and the sidewall trenches where there are few, if any visibly observable gun batteries. Oh and speaking of the ISD Mk II model, there is in main trench notches at least one HTL battery that could concievably fire down onto the Z- arcs.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

An ISD is capable of great accelerations when it comes to linear trajectories, even if punctual.
The other moves, that's another story.

What I was refering to was even when conducting maneuvers, the ISDs seem to still be able to chase down and follow their prey. As Airlocke points out, there are inconsistancies due to the need for dramatic necessity. In universe, I have no idea how to explain it.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Many TLs? By observing the models of the ISD Mk II, what we notice is the absolute lack of features on the underside, safe for a very few spots here and there around the ventral bay, which won't be big enough to accept the heavy TLs, not even what some would call medium TLs.

The models do not tell the entire story; we have seen plenty of times in the movies TL coming from the bottom of the ISD,...

Very rarely from the underneath, and most shots originated from the bits of dats around the ventral bay.

... parts of the dorsal superstructure,...

Possible, I'm not sure about that, and I'm talking about the underside.

... and the sidewall trenches where there are few, if any visibly observable gun batteries.

Yep, but again, that's not the underneath, and the TLs in the trenches are at a certain angle, the only pieces having a sight on targets which are already out the HTL's LOS.

Oh and speaking of the ISD Mk II model, there is in main trench notches at least one HTL battery that could concievably fire down onto the Z- arcs.
-Mike

Eh? I only remember the quad turret of the Mk-Is.

[Mr. Oragahn]

An ISD is capable of great accelerations when it comes to linear trajectories, even if punctual.
The other moves, that's another story.

What I was refering to was even when conducting maneuvers, the ISDs seem to still be able to chase down and follow their prey. As Airlocke points out, there are inconsistancies due to the need for dramatic necessity. In universe, I have no idea how to explain it.
-Mike

Where is there an inconsistency exactly?
ISDs are fat whales when it comes to turns, and if they were making arcs while pushing engines at full, they'd be making large arcs.
Small ships can fly around a behemoth with ease.
The problem comes when the small ship tries to put some distance between herself and an ISD, where it will fail.

[Mike DiCenso]

Where is there an inconsistency exactly?
ISDs are fat whales when it comes to turns, and if they were making arcs while pushing engines at full, they'd be making large arcs.
Small ships can fly around a behemoth with ease.
The problem comes when the small ship tries to put some distance between herself and an ISD, where it will fail.

Watch the ISDs chasing the Falcon in ANH again, as well as the Falcon/Avenger scenes in TESB. In both cases, the ISDs are able to not only keep up with the smaller ship, but match it maneuver for maneuver. If the ISDs were "fat whales", then they would not be able to do that, and all it would take is Han do sharp Z- dives or curve back on the flight path to shake them completely just as was done right after the Falcon escapes from Hoth, and ditches those three ISDs.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Very rarely from the underneath, and most shots originated from the bits of dats around the ventral bay.

Far more than shots aimed directly astern and nearly as many as seen from the trench guns and the superstructure terraces. Also recall the small dorsal TL gun that initially targets Threepio and Artoo's escape pod in ANH.

... parts of the dorsal superstructure,...

Possible, I'm not sure about that, and I'm talking about the underside.

Right, but there are guns in the dorsal superstructure as seen when the Falcon goes zipping over the hull of the Avenger. TL bolts galore, but not a gun visible on the model to support the FX. And so it is with the ventral gun battery positions.

... and the sidewall trenches where there are few, if any visibly observable gun batteries.

Yep, but again, that's not the underneath, and the TLs in the trenches are at a certain angle, the only pieces having a sight on targets which are already out the HTL's LOS.

You missed the point. The point is that you cannot rely solely on the model's details. So we do not see obvious guns visible? That does not necessarily mean they are not there.

Oh and speaking of the ISD Mk II model, there is in main trench notches at least one HTL battery that could concievably fire down onto the Z- arcs.
-Mike

Eh? I only remember the quad turret of the Mk-Is.

Look at the notch here in this Cloudster photo of the ISD Mk II model. There is an HTL battery located in the lower right part of the notch. It's not of the same arrangement as the dorsal batteries, but the gun barrels are the same size.
-Mike

[Dabat]

As I don't know the exact placement of all the guns on an ISD, there isn't a lot I can comment about right now, my statement on the ISD's were from what they showed in the movies. But if you are talking about that double turret to the Port-Aft of the bay (at least I assume it is a bay) then it would have trouble firing more then -30 degrees of the XY [110] plane, not counting aft or dorsal, that is a 120 degree sphere-arc that the heavy guns of an ISD can not cover.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Where is there an inconsistency exactly?
ISDs are fat whales when it comes to turns, and if they were making arcs while pushing engines at full, they'd be making large arcs.
Small ships can fly around a behemoth with ease.
The problem comes when the small ship tries to put some distance between herself and an ISD, where it will fail.

Watch the ISDs chasing the Falcon in ANH again, as well as the Falcon/Avenger scenes in TESB. In both cases, the ISDs are able to not only keep up with the smaller ship, but match it maneuver for maneuver. If the ISDs were "fat whales", then they would not be able to do that, and all it would take is Han do sharp Z- dives or curve back on the flight path to shake them completely just as was done right after the Falcon escapes from Hoth, and ditches those three ISDs.
-Mike

In ANH, the Falcon makes no maneuver. It, at best, follows a long curve by drifting portside, which the ISD does as well, but Solo attempts no move, so there is nothing to observe there. Hell, he wasn't even griping the controls to move the ship around, only fiddling with the buttons to get the hyperdrive hot, and there's no sign that Chewie was piloting the ship and putting her through loops and whatnots.
In TESB, again, I fail to see where the ISD is matching any maneuver. If anything, the whole film precisely made it clear that the MF could zip zap around once it actually started to make maneuvers.
We see the ISD rotating once left, another time to her right, all slowly. There is no evidence of ISDs being capable of being capable of espousing a smaller craft's moves, and enough against that idea.

Now, I'm only working from copies of the SE version, so maybe things dramatically changed since 97.

Very rarely from the underneath, and most shots originated from the bits of dats around the ventral bay.

Far more than shots aimed directly astern and nearly as many as seen from the trench guns and the superstructure terraces.

Yes, which rather proves the very reduced coverage of weapons on the underside, safe for the zone around the ventral bay, and possibly some batteries on the upside down and nearly featureless terraces near the bow, but I can't tell for sure, since the bolts could come from farther behind, that is, from the ventral bay's collar.

Also recall the small dorsal TL gun that initially targets Threepio and Artoo's escape pod in ANH.

Small indeed. There possibly are medium TLs around the ventral bay, and that's as far as it goes.
Anyway, it didn't require much more than this firepower to deal with the blockade runner. A better and yet smaller warship would find a benefit in that weaker cone.

... parts of the dorsal superstructure,...

Possible, I'm not sure about that, and I'm talking about the underside.

Right, but there are guns in the dorsal superstructure as seen when the Falcon goes zipping over the hull of the Avenger. TL bolts galore, but not a gun visible on the model to support the FX. And so it is with the ventral gun battery positions.

With the major difference that the upside of an ISD has much more than mere broken and beveled terraces: it has plenty of superstructure details and notches which are all the more places for guns. It's not a surprise that shots from such bits of "noisy" elements in the superstructure, but very, very rarely from flat mesas, if never.
Unfortunately, flat mesas are many on the underside.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starw ... stator.jpg

... and the sidewall trenches where there are few, if any visibly observable gun batteries.

Yep, but again, that's not the underneath, and the TLs in the trenches are at a certain angle, the only pieces having a sight on targets which are already out the HTL's LOS.

You missed the point. The point is that you cannot rely solely on the model's details. So we do not see obvious guns visible? That does not necessarily mean they are not there.

No, I got that point. See above for the fact that these shots you refer to come from "noisy" sections of the superstructure which are largely lacking underneath.
That's why it's rather obvious that the most likely locations of TL batteries on the underside are around the ventral bay, and that's actually true for the Devastator.

Oh and speaking of the ISD Mk II model, there is in main trench notches at least one HTL battery that could concievably fire down onto the Z- arcs.
-Mike

Eh? I only remember the quad turret of the Mk-Is.

Look at the notch here in this Cloudster photo of the ISD Mk II model. There is an HTL battery located in the lower right part of the notch. It's not of the same arrangement as the dorsal batteries, but the gun barrels are the same size.
-Mike

Good catch. Those are great pictures btw.
There's one thing to notice though.
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer038.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer035.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer039.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer040.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer034.jpg

If that thing is a two barreled turret, it can, at the very best, aim at the strict horizon, obviously upwards to what could be a 45~55 degrees angle, but certainly not downwards.

It doesn't mean the massive turret on the ISD-I was better. With no evidence of being able to swivel up and down that much, it was obviously a pure braodside piece of artillery to support the equally massive guns at the base of the bridge's neck.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Good catch. Those are great pictures btw.
There's one thing to notice though.
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer038.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer035.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer039.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer040.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer034.jpg

A trained eye could probably identify the specific model kits those parts come from. Also what's interesting is that there appears to be a large number of crudely drilled holes.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Good catch. Those are great pictures btw.
There's one thing to notice though.
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer038.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer035.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer039.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer040.jpg
http://cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/SWst ... yer034.jpg

A trained eye could probably identify the specific model kits those parts come from. Also what's interesting is that there appears to be a large number of crudely drilled holes.

That's for the Christmas optics in the movie. ;)

[Mike DiCenso]

A trained eye could probably identify the specific model kits those parts come from. Also what's interesting is that there appears to be a large number of crudely drilled holes.

In many models of the time there were either lamps inside or fiber optics to help create the illusion of lit windows through those drilled holes, running lights, ect.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

Mmhmm. The original filming model of the E-D built by Greg Jein and co. used fiber optics, huge bundles of fiber optics. The Continuing Mission shows the model under construction.

Much of the details for the Star Destroyer might not even come from kits. Many times to get a detailed, technical look like that, modelers just use whatever they find lying around, glue it on and paint it. The Borg Cube model for First Contact had thousands of paper clips on it.

[Mike DiCenso]

It's obvious that there are battleship superstructure as well as turrets among other model kit pieces that make up the details on the ISD model. However, if you look closely at the hull, there are also lines where model makers must have spent many hours with X-acto blades etching them in.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

It's obvious that there are battleship superstructure as well as turrets among other model kit pieces that make up the details on the ISD model. However, if you look closely at the hull, there are also lines where model makers must have spent many hours with X-acto blades etching them in.
-Mike

For the sake of giving these ships weapons, we have to pretend that many of these cylinders and other burbs are weapon placements, but these pictures of greater quality than those found at SWTC reveal that we pretty much identified all possible obvious cannons, safe maybe that WWI-style small one sitting at the top of one of the terraces, which could eventually be the one turret to fit the medium TL size range.

If anything, the message is rather clear: there are only a very few big guns, the heavy ones, and all others, from medium to light ones, are small enough.

What's interesting is that the Tantive IV was disabled with what mounts to nothing more than LTLs-MTLs.

[Dabat]

Up until the SD series, I doubt anyone in Star Wars actually used anything but what we are calling LTL's and MTL's, prior to the Clone Wars (assuming my post that started this thread is anything close to correct) those would of likely been considered a ship's main guns. The heavies were likely only there for overkill, you hit another (non-ISD) ship once or twice and it's done.