In defense on TDiC

[Mike DiCenso]

A few notes:
1. Especially in the remastered version, the Romulan BoP weapons of "The Deadly Years" are not FTL.

Well, I don't think the E-1701, the BoPs, nor the weapons are sublight since dialog clearly stated the E-1701 was heading across the NZ at warp 5. One thing the TOS remastered keeps is the lack of doppler shifting "star streaks" when ships are seen at warp.

2. Green phaser beam: http://www.phasers.net/2260/p2-wi09.jpg

I'd almost forgotten about that example. It makes me really wonder what the real difference is between phasers and disruptors. Consider:

- Both phasers and disruptors can be fired as bolts. Disruptors far more often are seen used in this mode.

- Both phasers and disruptors beams can be green colored.

- Both phasers and disruptors can be fired as continuous beams.

- Both phasers and disruptors on high settings can "vaporize" a humanoid without noticeable DET thermal effects.

So, like, what's the difference?

3. It would make little sense for the "Image in the Sand" weapons to be strictly a planetary assault weapon. Were they strictly planetary assault weapons, and hence unusable for hospital defense, then that fact would've been very noteworthy in the exchanges that occurred between Bajoran, Federation, and Romulan personnel.

Well, Ross was quite stupidly trying not to do anything that would upset the alliance, so I'am not sure that's a good enough reason. Certainly the weapons can be used against ships that don't maneuver at sublight or low warp speeds (or at least don't maneuver very much anyway). They just aren't as versatile as phasers and photon torpedoes.

While it's true that Kira dismissed the concept of their presence for defensive purposes, this was not because of any statement that the weapon design was strictly for planetary attack. The issue was that they were on Bajor's fourth moon, and hence within bombardment range of Bajor, thereby constituting a "direct threat".

All true. But again, Ross really didn't raise any serious objections for fear of risking the alliance. However it is clear, so far as we can tell, that the Romulan weapon of BoT, and possibly the plasma weapon of the TNG-era aren't much good against a ship capable of high warp speed and maneuvering.
-Mike

[Tyralak]

You've forgotten a very important point, SS13... None of those ships were powered by antimatter, they used quantum singularities for their warp cores. Also the warbirds are much, much bigger and more massive than a Galaxy class starship, thus even if they were antimatter powered, they could still carry a signifcant amount of reactants.
-Mike

Perhaps more importantly, they were using trilthium-based plasma torps, and we have reason to suspect trilithium reacts more violently than M/AM when detonated on/in a massive target.

Just look at Soran's trilithium torpedo in Generations. Chain reaction weapon, anyone?

Now that's interesting. How do you know they were using Trilithium torpedos? I thought they were using standard weapons.

[Mike DiCenso]

It's stated in dialog. Read back through our postings in this thread. We quote the statements from DS9's "Shadows and Symbols" about trilithium being a part of Romulan plasma torpedoes. Or at least the late 24th century ones, at any rate.
-Mike

[Tyralak]

It's stated in dialog. Read back through our postings in this thread. We quote the statements from DS9's "Shadows and Symbols" about trilithium being a part of Romulan plasma torpedoes. Or at least the late 24th century ones, at any rate.
-Mike

Well, that makes a lot of sense as to the yields in TDiC. The Warsies have spent all their energy trying to explain why TDiC isn't real. Although I've not heard any previous discussion (at least in the ASVS arguments) about Trilithium, it explains why they were so obsessed with erasing it from the discussion. I've maintained for years that TDiC wasn't a weird bit of fan-wank with grossly exaggerated claims of power. It was in fact, a demonstration of something that had been part of Trek canon since TOS. General Order 24. Admitting that kind of firepower would put a standard TNG vessel AT LEAST on par if not higher than an standard ISD.

[Flectarn]

I've been wondering, are there any calcs for the individual shockwaves we see?

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes there are. Graham Kennedy did some calcs a while back for his Torpedo Yeilds article. A lower end yeild would be nearly 24.5 gigatons. You can decide for yourself if you think his assumptions are vaild or not.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

It's stated in dialog. Read back through our postings in this thread. We quote the statements from DS9's "Shadows and Symbols" about trilithium being a part of Romulan plasma torpedoes. Or at least the late 24th century ones, at any rate.
-Mike

Well, that makes a lot of sense as to the yields in TDiC. The Warsies have spent all their energy trying to explain why TDiC isn't real. Although I've not heard any previous discussion (at least in the ASVS arguments) about Trilithium, it explains why they were so obsessed with erasing it from the discussion. I've maintained for years that TDiC wasn't a weird bit of fan-wank with grossly exaggerated claims of power. It was in fact, a demonstration of something that had been part of Trek canon since TOS. General Order 24. Admitting that kind of firepower would put a standard TNG vessel AT LEAST on par if not higher than an standard ISD.

They try to because the TDiC statements and the bombardment itself are found in Trek's canon, while their wank-fest ICS is in a lower ranking in the SW canon hierarchy and is even hotly disputed by other authors, and now by the higher canon of the new Clone Wars movie with CIS capital ships having to dump all their shield power into forward shields in order to protect them while they traverse an asteroid field at a relatively low velocity. With ICS level shield capacities, an SW ship would shrug off the KE impacts without the slightest concern.

The TOS-era General Order 24 was not so much about destroying a planet as it was authorizing a Federation starship to sterilize the inhabited surface of one. In this respect GO 24 and original concept of SW's Base Delta Zero are very similar.

As for trilithium, I cannot say that is what is being used here in the TDiC bombardment, or that plasma torpedoes are being used, For all that we know, the torpedoes could be using gravitic charges ala what Janeway planned on using in "The Omega Directive".

Hell, for all we know it's uber antimatter.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Yes there are. Graham Kennedy did some calcs a while back for his Torpedo Yeilds article. A lower end yeild would be nearly 24.5 gigatons. You can decide for yourself if you think his assumptions are vaild or not.
-Mike

24.5 gigatons of gravy sauce maybe?
Since I've been over his calcs, they're based on premises which are all the more flawed. His main problem being that he tried to address TDiC from the perspective of conventional firepower.

[2046]

Since I've been over his calcs, they're based on premises which are all the more flawed. His main problem being that he tried to address TDiC from the perspective of conventional firepower.

That's pretty standard. He's looking for effective firepower, instead of quantifying all the POOCing or whatever. Hence the focus on torps and percentage input therefrom.

[Mith]

Actually, I was thinking that ST weapons are designed to focus on creating sub-space shockwaves. The advatnage is that they can literally create sockwaves that have just as much physical presence, move much faster (even surpassing FTL speeds), and have a larger blast radius. It would certainly fit into the issue of Scorpion's mine claim, as well as the destruction of Praxis, and other issues.

[Mith]

They try to because the TDiC statements and the bombardment itself are found in Trek's canon, while their wank-fest ICS is in a lower ranking in the SW canon hierarchy and is even hotly disputed by other authors, and now by the higher canon of the new Clone Wars movie with CIS capital ships having to dump all their shield power into forward shields in order to protect them while they traverse an asteroid field at a relatively low velocity. With ICS level shield capacities, an SW ship would shrug off the KE impacts without the slightest concern.

I give it three weeks before SW fanboys are screaming in rage of how the new cartoon doesn't count as we see capital ships getting it up the tailpipe as far as firepower is concerned.

The TOS-era General Order 24 was not so much about destroying a planet as it was authorizing a Federation starship to sterilize the inhabited surface of one. In this respect GO 24 and original concept of SW's Base Delta Zero are very similar.

Right. In the origianl intention, a BDZ was only killing all life, which you only need MT firepower at the most, but you could probably easily get away with KT firepower depending on what you bring to the table. The later claims was horribly made up by Saxton who can't even understand that his vision of SW starships would cause them to do render a planet lifeless just by passing by.

As for trilithium, I cannot say that is what is being used here in the TDiC bombardment, or that plasma torpedoes are being used, For all that we know, the torpedoes could be using gravitic charges ala what Janeway planned on using in "The Omega Directive".

It was said that trilithium was used in plasma torpedoes during the run of DS9. If I recall, that stuff could take out a room or a small building by simply lacing your clothes with that crap.

This would again, push the fact that the plasma torpedoes are more powerful than the bog-standard photon.

Also, I would like to point out that when people sight Spock's claim of it causing an implosion, it was only the best theory that the science officers had given him. Given they only had a few hours to examine the reckage and the attack, I think it's possible that they were wrong.

Of course, this means that if these are the same type of weapons used those Cardassian platforms, it shows why the allies were worried about such weapons being deployed. Amazing even still ist that the UFP ships could still take it to a lesser degree.

Hell, for all we know it's uber antimatter.
-Mike

Possible, but let's avoid that subject.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Trilithium would "just" make a louder bang. I don't see it helping much in explaining the visual nonsense that doesn't fit with dialogue.

Besides, if they had trilithium, be logical, it would be faster to just drop a cargo full of that stuff into the local star, and let it burn everything. The more massive the star the better, and for all intents and purposes, the star did lit up the Founders' worlds well enough, so it wouldn't be that faint.

Maybe you could argue that the Dominion used drops of protomatter for that mission?

At least it could explain the ripple on the surface stuff, from what I remember of the Genesis device, it had something similar, with shinier VFX and difference effects. But the principle is that the device created an effect which traveled across the surface of the planet or something.

EDIT: about the trilithium, what if only Soran and maybe a few Dominion scientists knew how to use this ore to kill stars?
Who says it's so easy once you have trilithium?

[Mith]

Trilithium would "just" make a louder bang. I don't see it helping much in explaining the visual nonsense that doesn't fit with dialogue.

Besides, if they had trilithium, be logical, it would be faster to just drop a cargo full of that stuff into the local star, and let it burn everything. The more massive the star the better, and for all intents and purposes, the star did lit up the Founders' worlds well enough, so it wouldn't be that faint.

Maybe you could argue that the Dominion used drops of protomatter for that mission?

At least it could explain the ripple on the surface stuff, from what I remember of the Genesis device, it had something similar, with shinier VFX and difference effects. But the principle is that the device created an effect which traveled across the surface of the planet or something.

EDIT: about the trilithium, what if only Soran and maybe a few Dominion scientists knew how to use this ore to kill stars?
Who says it's so easy once you have trilithium?

Actually, it takes a certain amounnt of trilithium with certain level of purity in order to create that sunbuster; trilithium that was stolen from the Romulans. It was likely that the Romulans themselves were not making their own, but rather using that pure trilithium for some other use, when Soran had the sisters attack and steal the load. I'm willing to guess that the Dominion has both the knowledge and the purity factor to make those kind of weapons. Also, I believe it was mentioned that it was a different kind of trilithium, as in they were experimenting in using it in different ways.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Trilithium would "just" make a louder bang. I don't see it helping much in explaining the visual nonsense that doesn't fit with dialogue.

Besides, if they had trilithium, be logical, it would be faster to just drop a cargo full of that stuff into the local star, and let it burn everything. The more massive the star the better, and for all intents and purposes, the star did lit up the Founders' worlds well enough, so it wouldn't be that faint.

Maybe you could argue that the Dominion used drops of protomatter for that mission?

At least it could explain the ripple on the surface stuff, from what I remember of the Genesis device, it had something similar, with shinier VFX and difference effects. But the principle is that the device created an effect which traveled across the surface of the planet or something.

EDIT: about the trilithium, what if only Soran and maybe a few Dominion scientists knew how to use this ore to kill stars?
Who says it's so easy once you have trilithium?

Actually, it takes a certain amounnt of trilithium with certain level of purity in order to create that sunbuster; trilithium that was stolen from the Romulans. It was likely that the Romulans themselves were not making their own, but rather using that pure trilithium for some other use, when Soran had the sisters attack and steal the load. I'm willing to guess that the Dominion has both the knowledge and the purity factor to make those kind of weapons. Also, I believe it was mentioned that it was a different kind of trilithium, as in they were experimenting in using it in different ways.

As I suspected, trilithium doesn't magically work as a natural explosive for star.

Still, what about the protomatter stuff, could that be possible? Are there other canonically known matters which have typically "run over the land" associated effects?

[Mith]

As I suspected, trilithium doesn't magically work as a natural explosive for star.

Just looked it up. Apparently trilithium is able to stop nuclear reactions and a small amount of it can cause a star to quantum implosion and causing a massive sub-space shockwave. It was also mentioned that the Dominion use some sort of other material called tekasite as well as protomatter.

Still, what about the protomatter stuff, could that be possible? Are there other canonically known matters which have typically "run over the land" associated effects?

Actually, protomatter appears to be part of the bomb that the Founder used to try and destroy the Bajoran sun. It is unsure if this is what Soran also used, but given the fact that the Romulans don't go around busting suns, is probably the secret ingredients. Interestingly enough, this confirms that the Federation knows how to make these weapons.

Further investigation shows that the Genesis Project wasn't a complete failure, as later scientists such as Professor Gideon Seyetik terraformed several planets into paradise based on the technology of the Genesis project (it was mentioned by the writers that this was the case and the show said that the professor used protomatter to reignite a star at the end of the episode).

Given how the Federation seems to be able to have more of this stuff on hand, it would suggest that they could truly make a big bomb if they wanted to.