Commentary on Spock v. Thanatos

[Thanatos]

Oh and can you email me my coded response? The forum software won't let me quote or forward my own message oddly enough.

[Jedi Master Spock]

The quickest thing to do is PM it straight back to you. Which I have now done. Now I'll go read through that second reply of yours.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I've replied to Thanatos again. Three down, two to go.

[l33telboi]

Funny thing I noticed. In the beginning there was the claim that this wasn't going to be one on one and that people on SFJ would help JMS. Well... reading through the SDN thread I find that accusation rather laughable at the moment. Crazy stuff.

As for the debate itself. Interesting stuff, considering people often like to pretend WH40K is the most consistent thing ever. Doesn't really seem so at the moment. But who knows, maybe it'll change as the debate progresses.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Funny thing I noticed. In the beginning there was the claim that this wasn't going to be one on one and that people on SFJ would help JMS. Well... reading through the SDN thread I find that accusation rather laughable at the moment. Crazy stuff.

As for the debate itself. Interesting stuff, considering people often like to pretend WH40K is the most consistent thing ever. Doesn't really seem so at the moment. But who knows, maybe it'll change as the debate progresses.

Can it get worse than Halo though? :D

"The inner layer provides the main protection. Its a bonded ceramite/adamantium alloy which provides protection equal to over five times the same width of conventional steel, while being lighter."

Stargate's trinium is teh wank. 100 times stronger than steel iirc...

[Jedi Master Spock]

Funny thing I noticed. In the beginning there was the claim that this wasn't going to be one on one and that people on SFJ would help JMS. Well... reading through the SDN thread I find that accusation rather laughable at the moment. Crazy stuff.

As for the debate itself. Interesting stuff, considering people often like to pretend WH40K is the most consistent thing ever. Doesn't really seem so at the moment. But who knows, maybe it'll change as the debate progresses.

We're five posts into the ten post series, and it has been a debate between Thanatos and myself. There is that one magazine spread that I've found marginally useful, but I think it's clear to both of us that neither is getting outside help in putting together our arguments. I will say it seems like Thanatos is hard-pressed for time in writing his replies, which is regrettable.

Reviewing the SDN thread, I see that my second statement, already public here, hasn't been posted to that thread yet.

[l33telboi]

We're five posts into the ten post series, and it has been a debate between Thanatos and myself. There is that one magazine spread that I've found marginally useful, but I think it's clear to both of us that neither is getting outside help in putting together our arguments.

Oh Thanatos has been doing this just fine. It's the people on SDN that simply doesn't seem to understand what it means to first say "he's going to get help from the others!" and then turn around and start debating the issue on their own, posting new information, and mentioning where to look for specifics.

Now I realize their help hasn't exactly been all that great, because it's mostly just vague stuff and useless on its own. The point is that they're still trying to help.

I mean stuff like this:

You should've really pressed him about that Titan Legion. He asked about the outcome of the battle, and this trumps everything.

Is an attempt to help and guide one side, however impotent an attempt it might be.

[Jedi Master Spock]

We're five posts into the ten post series, and it has been a debate between Thanatos and myself. There is that one magazine spread that I've found marginally useful, but I think it's clear to both of us that neither is getting outside help in putting together our arguments.

Oh Thanatos has been doing this just fine. It's the people on SDN that simply doesn't seem to understand what it means to first say "he's going to get help from the others!" and then turn around and start debating the issue on their own, posting new information, and mentioning where to look for specifics.

Now I realize their help hasn't exactly been all that great, because it's mostly just vague stuff and useless on its own. The point is that they're still trying to help.

I mean stuff like this:

You should've really pressed him about that Titan Legion. He asked about the outcome of the battle, and this trumps everything.

Is an attempt to help and guide one side, however impotent an attempt it might be.

It doesn't bother me one bit. I expected that; it's a natural consequence of having a public debate. People will talk about the issue being debated. I'm actually surprised that the folks here seem willing to patiently wait quietly this time before tearing into the details; I saw much less patience from SFJ's residents when I was debating Sothis.

However, since Thanatos has insisted on a one post delay, the amount of help that people can provide is quite limited, even were Thanatos and I inclined to listen to outside advice. For example, take this critical comment offered on SDN:

The problem with that statement thanatos is that by SOD a mech can do that, even if they shouldn't be able to this it pretty much falls under the same heading as - FTL anti grav engines let alone the warp and all the other things we have trouble with in reality. So yes big bipedal machine of death isn't realistic but as there is evidence for it you have to then say ok it can do that but there will be limits. Thats the problem with battletech it just rapes the laws of physics but it is a nice game Smile same could be said of heavy gear for that matter (yes play that too).

It was over a week earlier that I had addressed the same point privately, in the response that I publicized the other night:

In other words, you're sure it canonically, in the BT universe, is able to maneuver very well and deal with all sorts of obstacles, but are unwilling to suspend your disbelief regarding its maneuverability, because of pre-existing bias against giant humanoid war machines.

I'm sorry, but in order to deal plausibly with the BT universe, you're going to have to accept that BattleMechs actually can do the things they're described as doing in BT.

Now, perhaps it might have helped me if harbringer had spoken up between Thanatos' first statement and my second statement, in case I didn't think to address this as a suspension of disbelief issue. It might have helped Thanatos if harbringer and read and reviewed his post before he sent it to me.

However, harbringer spoke up after I'd already finished my third statement. By the time someone here or on SDN comments on a point, Thanatos and I may have already concluded that particular.

Was it a worthwhile comment to make? Sure. Should it be even counted as an attempt to help me or Thanatos? I'd call that doubtful.

[l33telboi]

Was it a worthwhile comment to make? Sure. Should it be even counted as an attempt to help me or Thanatos? I'd call that doubtful.

Well that particular comment was rather useless in the sense that it states the obvious. But we both know that there are topics that are going to drag out for several posts. And in those cases it won't be as simple.

My point here has nothing to do with either you or Thanatos. I simply pointed out that it's a bit hypocritical for them to first accuse the other side of helping and then turning around doing it themselves with no apparent problem. Whether it bothers you or if it's actually helpful is another matter entirely.

In any case, let's just wait and see what happens.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Well that particular comment was rather useless in the sense that it states the obvious. But we both know that there are topics that are going to drag out for several posts. And in those cases it won't be as simple.

Drag out, yes. Thanatos is a little back-logged with addressing some of my arguments, so some of what's being said on SDN might have bearing on posts he hasn't yet made - but any comment made to "help" Thanatos is a shot in the dark.

And there's a lot of dark. There's a lot under discussion; my last post was about 2100 words excluding quoted material, about 5000 words including quoted material.

You have to read that material carefully to even try to help - take Imperial Overlord's objection to my analysis of Caves of Ice. He seems to be saying "Of course there's violent wind!" when I'm saying there are necessarily violent winds involved. (I'm guessing he hasn't run his own numbers, or he would realize how violent I'm already assuming they are when I said 1-10 gigawatts.)

My point here has nothing to do with either you or Thanatos. I simply pointed out that it's a bit hypocritical for them to first accuse the other side of helping and then turning around doing it themselves with no apparent problem. Whether it bothers you or if it's actually helpful is another matter entirely.

I suppose so.

In any case, let's just wait and see what happens.

Well, if Thanatos can meet the next three deadlines, and if I can keep turning my responses around the same night, we should be done the first week of September.

[Mr. Oragahn]

It doesn't bother me one bit. I expected that; it's a natural consequence of having a public debate. People will talk about the issue being debated. I'm actually surprised that the folks here seem willing to patiently wait quietly this time before tearing into the details; I saw much less patience from SFJ's residents when I was debating Sothis.

Maybe we know little to nothing about either universes...

[Mike DiCenso]

I know a modest amount because I've played several tabletop games and a few RPG campaigns for WH40k. But that was a long time ago and most of my material is at least 10 years out of date with respect to what's going on with the more current editions of WH40k. I also don't possess the insanely huge amounts of material and miniatures that other people do as I was never that heavily involved in it. It was a fun way to pass a few afternoons with friends, munching on junk food and drinking sodas. Only one person, the GM for the sessions, had anything like the kind of intense collecting fanatism that I see a number of the hard-core WH40k people display.

My books and such are buried away in storage somewhere, along with the original Warhammer Fantasy RPG material.

I also used to play Battletech for a five-year period of time in the late 80's and early 90's. Mostly free-for-all type games, and only a very few dedicated campaigns. Again, same with WH40k, I only had the basic rules sets and the like, I was never a hard-core fan.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Thanatos replied well within the deadline this time.

I have returned a reply to him. My third statement will be publicized fairly soon.

[l33telboi]

One interesting thing I noticed just now. APFSDS ammo from a 120mm tank barrel being 12 megajoules. That's almost twice as much as Atomic Rockets says it has (according to them it has about 6.1 megajoules of kinetic energy.)

If the question is not asked, I'd like to know where the 12 megajoule figure comes from.

Or is it that the projectile loses half of the energy when it sheds its sabot? That seems very wasteful.

EDIT: And the Russian 125mm APFSDS rounds brought up seems to be in the 6-7 MJ region, which would kinda support the 6.1 MJ figure for a 120mm turret.

[Jedi Master Spock]

One interesting thing I noticed just now. APFSDS ammo from a 120mm tank barrel being 12 megajoules. That's almost twice as much as Atomic Rockets says it has (according to them it has about 6.1 megajoules of kinetic energy.)

If the question is not asked, I'd like to know where the 12 megajoule figure comes from.

Or is it that the projectile loses half of the energy when it sheds its sabot? That seems very wasteful.

EDIT: And the Russian 125mm APFSDS rounds brought up seems to be in the 6-7 MJ region, which would kinda support the 6.1 MJ figure for a 120mm turret.

We didn't go into details on the 12 megajoule muzzle energy he cited, so here's the explanation you might not otherwise see. For the M829A1, the projectile weights are 9 kg (U) or 7.2 kg (W), with the actual penetrators being 4.6 kg depleted uranium and 4 kg tungsten. Both models basically have a KE of 6.2 MJ for the penetrator at point blank, although raw muzzle energy for the whole projectile is 10-11 MJ.

The A3 has a 10 kg projectile fired at 1555 m/s, meaning its muzzle energy is 12 megajoules. I don't know how much of that is the penetrator; based on the rated penetration figures, I'd guess the penetrator's share is about 7, maybe up to 8 megajoules.

So both Thanatos and Atomic Rockets are right - they're just using different models of ammunition (A1 vs A3) and measuring a different thing (top muzzle energy for the gun vs offensive energy of the projectile).