Is there a shield over coruscant?

[Mith]

Easy boy.

I hate Wong.

More would than could. SW can shape shields in many different ways, they're like clay.
It would be a question of strategy influencing the design more than a limitation of the tech.
That said, I don't believe in the gap theory.
If anything, TPM has shown grounded mechanized units getting through the shields. Even more important, droidekas used repulsors to move around iirc, and yet they went through as well.

I'm aware that they can alter the shape of the shield bubble, although this right here is evidence that they could have easily altered the shields in the asteroid field to get out a transmission (as you stated).

The very fact that they both tried to destroy as many rebels as possible while capturing some of them like Luke, with Vader literally going down there, casts doubts on the idea that they could fire gigatons of energy. Imagine just even half a bolt, among those many fired en masse at the planet, getting through whatever is left of the shield...

Yea, a fight would have been a very, very bad idea. Not to mention what a bolt that missed (see SW aiming abilities) should hit the planet. The devistation to the atmosphere would be horrible.

That is why they say the shields were lowered for long range holo communications.
Two problems with this.

1. I've seen the EU say holes can be formed in shields to let bolts pass through. This is possibly evidenced by the Hoth battle, the ion cannon firing and rebel ships sent away.
We also know that structures can stick out of shields. So how hard would it be to let tiny holes in a shield to get transmissions through, or have multiple antennas barely stick out of the shield for the communications?
The whole plausibility, for the EU, that the globes on an ISD are sensors and related to shields could actually explain how they mixed both precisely to control the shape of shields to allow long range comms.

You bring up good points, and that is a major flaw in their argument. In order for what they say to be true, you'd need to ignore higher canon.

2. Check the spoiler thread about future Clone Wars material in the review forum. You'll notice how asteroids will probably be a serious danger to the shields of state of the art capital ships.

Haven't been able to find the paticular movie, but that sounds fin to me.=D

It is not primitive by any margin.

I was refering to in its comparison to a planetary shield.

The mere fact that they had one, while many other nations or planets, notably Geonosis and Coruscant (and even Alderaan), seemed to lack one, disputes the primitive claim. Besides, the EU does specify that planetary shields are called thusly not because they cover a whole planet, but because they're placed on the planet. Planetary shields are said to be theater shields, that is, covering a limited area, and only combinations of them covers a whole planet.

Which makes more sense.

One would remember that EU source saying that a superlaser heating a fully shielded planet would "only" boil its surface or so. Sure, massive firepower, but nowhere the massive figure they think.
Not to say that the superlaser is said to use some bizarre neutrino som'thing to actually pierce through the shield.

I think it was cracking the planet, but year...

Wasn't it all the compound which was shielded?

Probably.

Anyway, the Dominion had that heavily shielded asteroid which deflected UFP firepower. Dominion defenses needed to be tricked to fire at the asteroid.

Another point, which is why it's absurd to believe that anything less than a fleet of starships could threaten Earth.

The novelization states that Coruscant had a defense umbrella consisting of ground to space batteries.
The surface being peppered by debris from all places and all altitudes clearly negates the presence of a full shield coverage at that time.

I figured that they had them, but Wong's very claim was that only a weakling would need such a weapon. Which is amusing, given that the Rebels suppposedly had a shield that could resist all bombardment, but they still had an ion cannon (sure they were using it to draw the ISDs away, but they still had it).

[Jedi Master Spock]

That is why they say the shields were lowered for long range holo communications.
Two problems with this.

1. I've seen the EU say holes can be formed in shields to let bolts pass through. This is possibly evidenced by the Hoth battle, the ion cannon firing and rebel ships sent away.
We also know that structures can stick out of shields. So how hard would it be to let tiny holes in a shield to get transmissions through, or have multiple antennas barely stick out of the shield for the communications?
The whole plausibility, for the EU, that the globes on an ISD are sensors and related to shields could actually explain how they mixed both precisely to control the shape of shields to allow long range comms.

2. Check the spoiler thread about future Clone Wars material in the review forum. You'll notice how asteroids will probably be a serious danger to the shields of state of the art capital ships.

3. Order 66 went out by FTL holo-communication and did so through active shields, with no visible problems, in ROTS.

4. The difference between voice communications and holographic communications is just bandwidth. At the resolution seen in SW movies, it's not even a terribly large amount of bandwidth. Communications go between shielded ships all the time (see attack sequences) and even through the very powerful Rebel shield on Hoth.

5. Shields are selectively transparent to certain frequencies/energies, hence why you can see through them most of the time. Again, no reason why this can't be used for a communications channel.

6. Shields don't appear to have anything to do with FTL comms. The basic principles suggest they wouldn't interact in any event.

And finally, problem number seven:

7. There's something of a lack of evidence for lowering the shields. Thus, even without 1-6, it's a flimsy explanation at best.

[Mike DiCenso]

Ah, according to this quote from "Tyrant's Nest" (thanks again to the Obsidan Order pages), we know that SW shields are frequency based:

"Do you know of any weaknesses or vulnerability of the vagabond that we can exploit?'
'Yes. Blaster cannon, cruiser-weight and up. The hull's not armored, and there don't seem to be ray shields, at least not at those frequencies. You can hole it and hurt it.'" [ "Tyrant's Test", p. 339 ]

Also interesting as pointed out in the site commentary on this piece is that blaster weapons are also frequency based, and thus, in theory, the Borg or other ST powers could modulate their shields to adapt to them. Presumably, for example, the Borg could also adapt their weapons to penetrate SW shields as well.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Before the point by point stuff, Saxton's insistance that shields need to be lowered is because of the Heir to the Empire boo or so, by Zahn, where the shields of Coruscant prevented comms.
The occasion was to good not to catch to pretend that ISDs had their shields lowered.
If i got it correctly, the shield blocked Holo FTL transmissions only. I'm not even sure it was specific to holocoms in fact.
This needs to be clarified beyond any shadow of doubt.
I've wondered how then could the Executor even KNOW that the Emperor was trying to contact Vader. They obviously were capable of receiving a form of FTL message. What would be so magic about holos that the signal couldn't be boosted, with some packets eventually made redundant to account for packet loss?

I've always thought, rather logically and obviously, that Vader moved his ship out of the asteroid belt to obtain a clean communication, regardless of the shields, but simple because of interferences due to the asteroids, notably by a signal coming a long way since some world in the core I suppose.

That's also how it completely hurts their whole argument, and why they insist there was a gap in the Hoth shield, to let machines walk under, while we know that if it's anywhere near to the Gungan shielding, such a gap would not be necessary.
Are we going to argue that Gungan shielding is superior? Huh.
Besides, why would the rebel have a gap in their shield? If they need to communicate over long ranges, they can have secret comm systems outside of the shield perimeter.

3. Order 66 went out by FTL holo-communication and did so through active shields, with no visible problems, in ROTS.

I remember asking there or at SBC how the ARC-170 got their comms through their shields. We assume shields are up, since they're in a battle context and flying close to enemy positions.
But there could be a relay negating the FTL side of it.
I don't remember any other evidence of a holo-communication event with shields clearly surrounding the receiver's communication system.
I mean, you may eventually find a reference in the novelization, but would you have the proof that a whole shield protected the vessel, vehicle, base or station, and that no antenna was sticking out of the shield?

4. The difference between voice communications and holographic communications is just bandwidth. At the resolution seen in SW movies, it's not even a terribly large amount of bandwidth. Communications go between shielded ships all the time (see attack sequences) and even through the very powerful Rebel shield on Hoth.

Clearly, there's no reason in theory why holo data, or FTL holo data, would be entirely blocked while all other types of comms make it through.
In ANH, the rebel fighters could communicate lively with the Massassi temple, yet they had to get through two types of shields.

5. Shields are selectively transparent to certain frequencies/energies, hence why you can see through them most of the time. Again, no reason why this can't be used for a communications channel.

On this I'd rather argue, for the sake of all TV SF as a whole, that there's a threshold, and that only a certain amount of light is allowed through. Obviously this argument is limited, but it's better than nothing. That said, I'm certain the amount of light allowed through shields would easily be enough for holo comms.
But light is not a FTL medium for comms.

6. Shields don't appear to have anything to do with FTL comms. The basic principles suggest they wouldn't interact in any event.

This is why we really need to get that reference from Zahn's book right, to at least understand part of the origins of the claim.
We'd also need to get the line from the ICS after all.

And finally, problem number seven:

7. There's something of a lack of evidence for lowering the shields. Thus, even without 1-6, it's a flimsy explanation at best.

It's also how SW ships have patches of shields, and thus certainly not require to get the whole shield protection dropped.

[Who is like God arbour]

• • • • [...]

This claim is nothing more than absurd masturbation. Not to mention that with that kind of firepower, no one in their right mind would consider a asteroid field a life endangering threat.

That is why they say the shields were lowered for long range holo communications.
Two problems with this.

1. I've seen the EU say holes can be formed in shields to let bolts pass through. This is possibly evidenced by the Hoth battle, the ion cannon firing and rebel ships sent away.
   We also know that structures can stick out of shields. So how hard would it be to let tiny holes in a shield to get transmissions through, or have multiple antennas barely stick out of the shield for the communications?
   The whole plausibility, for the EU, that the globes on an ISD are sensors and related to shields could actually explain how they mixed both precisely to control the shape of shields to allow long range comms.
2. Check the spoiler thread about future Clone Wars material in the review forum. You'll notice how asteroids will probably be a serious danger to the shields of state of the art capital ships.

You bring up good points, and that is a major flaw in their argument. In order for what they say to be true, you'd need to ignore higher canon.

That is why they say the shields were lowered for long range holo communications.
Two problems with this.

1. I've seen the EU say holes can be formed in shields to let bolts pass through. This is possibly evidenced by the Hoth battle, the ion cannon firing and rebel ships sent away.
We also know that structures can stick out of shields. So how hard would it be to let tiny holes in a shield to get transmissions through, or have multiple antennas barely stick out of the shield for the communications?
The whole plausibility, for the EU, that the globes on an ISD are sensors and related to shields could actually explain how they mixed both precisely to control the shape of shields to allow long range comms.

2. Check the spoiler thread about future Clone Wars material in the review forum. You'll notice how asteroids will probably be a serious danger to the shields of state of the art capital ships.

3. Order 66 went out by FTL holo-communication and did so through active shields, with no visible problems, in ROTS.

4. The difference between voice communications and holographic communications is just bandwidth. At the resolution seen in SW movies, it's not even a terribly large amount of bandwidth. Communications go between shielded ships all the time (see attack sequences) and even through the very powerful Rebel shield on Hoth.

5. Shields are selectively transparent to certain frequencies/energies, hence why you can see through them most of the time. Again, no reason why this can't be used for a communications channel.

6. Shields don't appear to have anything to do with FTL comms. The basic principles suggest they wouldn't interact in any event.

And finally, problem number seven:

7. There's something of a lack of evidence for lowering the shields. Thus, even without 1-6, it's a flimsy explanation at best.

I have tried to reconstruct the arguments to understand, where your problems are lying.

To be honest, I 'm still not able to understand, what you all are trying to argue.

As far as it concerns the ISD Bridge Tower - Asteroid Impact, I see no relevance to your arguments.

The ISD was only a stone's throw away from the Executor when its bridge was destroyed. No long range communication was necessary.

And we have seen, that holographic communication is possible through a shield in TESB. General Veers was able to communicate with Darth Vader although the former was in his AT-AT under the shield of the rebels while the latter has waited for the destruction of the shield generator to land.

• • • General Veers to Darth Vader via holocom during the battle of Hoth:
      • • • 'Yes, Lord Vader, I've reached the main
            power generators. The shield will be down
            in moments. You may commence your
            landing.'

Insofar I see no reason to assume, that the ISD has lowered its shield to be able to communicate with the Executor, when its bridge was destroyed.

That's also supported by the receiving of order 66 in an ARC-170 during a battle. While it could be true, that the FTL order was relayed to an electromagnetic signal, it shows nevertheless, that the information can pass through active shields.

It's irrelevant if the signal was an FTL signal or an electromagnetic signal because a FTL signal wouldn't have been necessary in TESB for the communication between the Executor and the ISDs either.

[Mr. Oragahn]

One ISD was close to the Exec, but the others were spread across the whole asteroid belt, which could either circle Hoth VI, circle Hoth VI plus its moon, or circle the complete Hoth system.

This would require FTL.

As for the shield on Hoth, it's possible that the Empire dropped a relay at the edge of the shield, one section inside, the other out., or had two probes doing the job, acting as relay, and communicating.

What matters is the ICS reference.

[Who is like God arbour]

One ISD was close to the Exec, but the others were spread across the whole asteroid belt, which could either circle Hoth VI, circle Hoth VI plus its moon, or circle the complete Hoth system.

This would require FTL.

The Millennium Falcon has flown to the asteroid field with its STL drive.

We have seen its velocity, when an ISD has come from ahead and when the Millenium Falcon has dived to evade the ISD comming from ahead and an pursuing ISD, shortly before both ISDs have collided.

With that velocity, the asteroid field couldn't have been far away from Hoth VI - unless one assumes, that the Millennium Falcon was slower than it could be, while it was pursued on screen and has only accelerated off-screen to high relativistic velocities. While it is possible, it is, at the same time, absurd.





And the Imperials must have known, that the Millennium Falcon has to be in the vicinity.

If the Millennium Falcon would be able to cover in that short time greater distances with its STL drive, it would be absurd to search it at all because it would be impossible for the Imperial Fleet at Hoth to find it. It could be everywhere and the ships would be spread so thin, that the Millennium Falcon could slip through unnoticed.

Therfore I see no reason to assume, that ships where so far away, that FTL communication would be necessary.





But even if I would assume, that FTL communication would be necessary, the fact still is, that the damaged ISD was only a stone's throw away from the Executor. Between these both ships was FTL communication not necessary.

The question now would be, if the Executor was the hub for the communication. Then it wouldn't have been necessary for the ISD to have FTL communication to the other ships.

Or if there was a com link from each ship to each ship? Only in that case, the ISD would have needed FTL communication to be able to communicate with the ships farther away.

As for the shield on Hoth, it's possible that the Empire dropped a relay at the edge of the shield, one section inside, the other out., or had two probes doing the job, acting as relay, and communicating.

It is possible. But is there any support for that possibility?

It is also possible, that they have send through the shield. And that possibiliy is supported by at least two other events, in which one would expect activated shields but a holographic communication was possible nevertheless.

What's more plausibel?

That the Imperials have a communication system, that is useless in each battle because shields would be activated and that they would deactivate their shields while in an asteroid field or during a battle to be able to send and receive holographic messages OR that their communication system is able to send through shields.

What matters is the ICS reference.

What is it, the ICS is saying?

[Mr. Oragahn]

It is possible. But is there any support for that possibility?

Considering that we saw noting of how the Imperials dropped walkers, it's a wild field of speculation here. Which means that there's no real possibility to dispute the ICS claim, since we know that probes can send video feed over long distances.

It is also possible, that they have send through the shield. And that possibiliy is supported by at least two other events, in which one would expect activated shields but a holographic communication was possible nevertheless.

What are the two other events?
I can only think of the much disputable ARC-170 case, and TESB is still discussed as now, so there's nothing conclusive to rely on for the moment to use against the ICS claim.
If you want to dispute the claim, you have to do it properly.

That the Imperials have a communication system, that is useless in each battle because shields would be activated and that they would deactivate their shields while in an asteroid field or during a battle to be able to send and receive holographic messages OR that their communication system is able to send through shields.

The reality being that I don't believe in the ICS absurd claim, because even if such a weakness existed, the designers had at least two solutions to circumvent it which I cited earlier on, if not three, by using unshielded small relay, probes or ships, launched from the ISDs just for the transmission.

The whole reason why in Zahn's book they never lowered a single shield patch was because they didn't know where the cloaked asteroids were.
This would also challenge the idea, in the EU, that all shields can micro control their shape to such a point they can open holes over a given surface. Apparently, a planetary shield controls its patch area as a whole, it's very binary, with no flexibility. Another puzzling thing, considering that I swear there's at least one reference in the EU about capital ships' shields which can have small apertures for weapons to fire through without dropping the protection over whole sections.

What matters is the ICS reference.

What is it, the ICS is saying?

Found it.

Hyperwave transcievers require almost stellar-scale power, yet signals can be blocked by nearby massive obstructions or by deflector shielding.

So it's all about FTL comms blocked by "deflector shielding", and has nothing to do with holographic content whatsoever.

Therefore, as long as the shields would be up, Vader would have never known that Palp wanted to talk to him.

[Who is like God arbour]

Considering that we saw noting of how the Imperials dropped walkers, it's a wild field of speculation here. Which means that there's no real possibility to dispute the ICS claim, since we know that probes can send video feed over long distances.

Is this, what the ICS is claiming? That there was a relay?

What are the two other events?
I can only think of the much disputable ARC-170 case, and TESB is still discussed as now, so there's nothing conclusive to rely on for the moment to use against the ICS claim.
If you want to dispute the claim, you have to do it properly.

That are the two other events in which holographic communication has occurred although one would assume that there were shields between sender and receiver.

1. The receiving of order 66 in an ARC-170 while in battle.
2. The communication between General Veers and Darth Vader during the Battle of Hoth.
3. The communication between Darth Vader and his captains while the ships of his task force were endangered by asteroids in the Hoth asteroid field.

In all three situations would it be foolish to have no shields activated or, as the case may be, we know, that there were shields. But if, with activated shields, a communication would be impossible, it would not have occurred. The receiver wouldn't even know, that there is someone calling.

The reality being that I don't believe in the ICS absurd claim, because even if such a weakness existed, the designers had at least two solutions to circumvent it which I cited earlier on, if not three, by using unshielded small relay, probes or ships, launched from the ISDs just for the transmission.

I wholeheartedly agree. If deflector shields would indeed block holographic signals, there would be ways to circumvent this drawback.

The whole reason why in Zahn's book they never lowered a single shield patch was because they didn't know where the cloaked asteroids were.
This would also challenge the idea, in the EU, that all shields can micro control their shape to such a point they can open holes over a given surface. Apparently, a planetary shield controls its patch area as a whole, it's very binary, with no flexibility. Another puzzling thing, considering that I swear there's at least one reference in the EU about capital ships' shields which can have small apertures for weapons to fire through without dropping the protection over whole sections.

Zahn's trilogy is overruled by the movies. There are no planetary shields as described in its books [1], [2], [3]. What he describes has never happened in Star Wars because it could not have happened.

Found it.

Hyperwave transcievers require almost stellar-scale power, yet signals can be blocked by nearby massive obstructions or by deflector shielding.

That can only be wrong unless one thinks, that the Executor has »almost stellar-scale power«. Vader has talked with the Emperor. That means, that the Executor has sended its own FTL signal to the Emperor.

Ergo, assuming the Emperor was not in the Hoth system, either the Executor has »almost stellar-scale power« to be able to send FTL signals to the Emperor OR
there is a hyperwave relay around Hoth VI with »almost stellar-scale power«, which has transmitted the signal from the Executor to the Emperor OR
no »almost stellar-scale power« is necessary to send FTL signals.

And btw, »can be blocked« is not »is blocked«. »Can« describes only a possibility. For example, while signals pass through weak shields, as ships are equipped with, they are blocked by the far stronger planetary shields. Insofar it would be correct to say, that such signals can be blocked by deflector shields. But such a statement would be worthless because it does not say, under which conditions such a signal can be blocked by deflector shields.

So it's all about FTL comms blocked by "deflector shielding", and has nothing to do with holographic content whatsoever.

Therefore, as I have said already, there is no reason to assume, that the ISD has lowered its shield to communicate with Vader. A FTL communication was not necessary with that distance.

Therefore, as long as the shields would be up, Vader would have never known that Palp wanted to talk to him.

Correct. No ship could be contacted with FTL signals while it has activated shields. That would be absurd.

[Praeothmin]

Zahn's trilogy is overruled by the movies.

Not really, since the Thrawn trilogy happens after the movies, so it cannot be considered contradicted by, as the Shields could have been installed after RotJ.
As all the novels show us, after all, the Empire crumbled after RotJ, but it was in no way completely destroyed, and since there was still a threat, then the New Republic could have decided to install planetary shields (playing Devil's advocate here, not really believing this to be logical).

[Who is like God arbour]

It's a logical argument. I have not considered that the Thrawn trilogy happens after the movies.

But one could argue as well, that the then installed shields, shields that are able to protect a whole planet, what was apparently impossible at the time, the events in the movies were happening, have different properties. They are able to block FTL communication signals.

But the shield technology from the time, the events in the movies were happening, was still not advanced enough to create a shield, that surrounds a whole planet. The shields of that time also weren't able to block FTL communication signals - as seen in the movies.

Another drawback of the newer shields would be, that it is impossible to create small holes in them, what was, according to some EU sources, possible with the older shields.