Logistics of Invasion: Federation vs Empire

[AFT]

That’s the point. The Empire can defeat the Federation, but it would need an all-out war with the Federation fighting alone and a full-mobilized Empire. All those scenarios where small task forces and even single warships are enough to destroy the Federation are unsupported fantasies at best.

[Praeothmin]

That’s the point. The Empire can defeat the Federation, but it would need an all-out war with the Federation fighting alone and a full-mobilized Empire

I have to disagree with you on this point.
Even half the Empire would wipe out the Federation, if only because of the Deathstar.
But even without it, the general consensus id that the Empire has around 25000 ISDs. With only 12500 of them, plus the Death star, plus a few SSDs, plus all the smaller vessels (carrak-class, Nebulon-B frigates, all the Blastboats) would be a force too great for the Feds to properly defend themselves.
Remember that the Federation had problems while facing a fleet made primarly of Dominion "Fighter Bugs" and a few capital ships.
Here they would be facing as many huge Capships as the Feds have to offer, plus a powerful Battlestation and many other supporting vessels, and that's not even taking into account all the fighters the Imps have.

This strongly suggests, if not outright makes it clear that Dodonna means firepower in context of the battlestation's TLs, not it's superlaser.

Even if the quote meant that he was taking about the Superlaser (which the "behind the magic" DVD states), "half the starfleet" doesn't just mean 12500 ISDs. It includes all the ships flying under the Imperial banner as an official Empire ship, so all the support ships (carrack cruisers, bulk cruisers, frigates, destroyers, cruiser types) are also included.
For an Empire controlling over 1 000 000 systems, that probably means over a million ships if they only have one ship per system.

Also, Dodonna doesn't say:
"This Battlestation has a firepower greater than what half the Starfleet can generate in one salvo... or one second)".
No, he states:
"This Battlestation has a Firepower greater than half the Starfleet."

It could very well mean the equivalent firepower that half the Starfleet can generate, in total, if they fired all they Turbolasers and blaster cannons dry.
We have no way of knowing, but when judging compared to what we see in the movies, my bet's on the latest meaning.

[Mike DiCenso]

AFT wrote:That’s the point. The Empire can defeat the Federation, but it would need an all-out war with the Federation fighting alone and a full-mobilized Empire

Praeothmin wrote:
I have to disagree with you on this point.
Even half the Empire would wipe out the Federation, if only because of the Deathstar.
But even without it, the general consensus id that the Empire has around 25000 ISDs. With only 12500 of them, plus the Death star, plus a few SSDs, plus all the smaller vessels (carrak-class, Nebulon-B frigates, all the Blastboats) would be a force too great for the Feds to properly defend themselves.
Remember that the Federation had problems while facing a fleet made primarly of Dominion "Fighter Bugs" and a few capital ships.
Here they would be facing as many huge Capships as the Feds have to offer, plus a powerful Battlestation and many other supporting vessels, and that's not even taking into account all the fighters the Imps have.

I'am afraid that's a somewhat inaccurate statement. The Dominion forces proper (not the Cardassian and later Breen ships) were primarily composed of the relatively small attack ships early. However by the end of the war, we saw an increasingly larger number of massive capital ships in their fleets:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... 73&pos=368

The Trekcore screencap from "What You Leave Behind" shows that there was a pretty good mix of small, large, and medium Dominion vessels, and this was at the very end when the Cardassian fleet switched sides. Note the scale of some of the Dominion "battleships", which would, if scaled to the attack ships and Breen vessels, easily outsize an ISD several times over.

This screencap here from "Sacrifice of Angels" shows that there were, even early on in the war, a fair number of large capital ships of both Cardassian and Dominion design in their fleet makeup:

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/display ... =63&pos=40


So generally I would say that trying to make a case for the Empire winning on the basis of large capital ships is a shakey one at best.

This strongly suggests, if not outright makes it clear that Dodonna means firepower in context of the battlestation's TLs, not it's superlaser.

Praeothmin wrote:

Even if the quote meant that he was taking about the Superlaser (which the "behind the magic" DVD states), "half the starfleet" doesn't just mean 12500 ISDs. It includes all the ships flying under the Imperial banner as an official Empire ship, so all the support ships (carrack cruisers, bulk cruisers, frigates, destroyers, cruiser types) are also included.
For an Empire controlling over 1 000 000 systems, that probably means over a million ships if they only have one ship per system.

Right, in Robert Anderson's estimate, he used an equivalant, since realistically in the true canon GL SW, the Empire probably has leftover Venators still in the Imperial fleet as well as the so-called Acclamator type SDs, and whatever the heck the "local bulk cruisers" are, in addition to the ISDs and and the SSDs.

So the ship numbers could be higher, or lower. Either way, the ANH novelization makes Dodonna's statement much clearer in the context of TL firepower on the DS as opposed to the SL.

Praeothmin wrote:

Also, Dodonna doesn't say:
"This Battlestation has a firepower greater than what half the Starfleet can generate in one salvo... or one second)".
No, he states:
"This Battlestation has a Firepower greater than half the Starfleet."

It could very well mean the equivalent firepower that half the Starfleet can generate, in total, if they fired all they Turbolasers and blaster cannons dry.
We have no way of knowing, but when judging compared to what we see in the movies, my bet's on the latest meaning.[/b]

More accurately Dodonna in the movie says it this way:

The battle station is heavily shielded and carries a
firepower greater than half the star fleet.

But yes, the context is different the way it is used there as you note, and could be the way you say it. My point still stands; there are alternative expanations to the Warsies' favorite, which paint a very different picture of non-Death Star Imperial conventional weapons' firepower.
-Mike

[GStone]

Assuming that the distance between the 2 civilizations wasn't a worry (however it is circumvented), it'd be smart for an Imperial intel operative to get star charts for their navcomputers before the fighting started. They could buy some from one of the outer systems, but it'd be cheaper and still wouldn't raise suspicions, if it was gotten within the Federation itself. It'd probably come with data on just where certain Federation outposts/facilities are, so that people are warned to stay away from those areas. You're probably told where known dangers are and probably are given brief reports on recent events in those areas. Being told how places and things are dangerous, probably also comes with explanations why things will happen to your vessel, what exactly the problems will be and how to fix them. It would be some intel that might be of use, if they can make it actionable.

Then, you get the question of how quickly the Empire could get a production facility up and running and how many. There have been analyses by Alyeska and BigHairyMountainMan on Fed production, but I'm wondering how quick the Feds could get something substantial up and running. With an Empirial invasion, there are assembly lines and furnances that need to be set up. Industrial replicators are probably just really big replicators. Production probably starts sooner with the Feds.

Then, what would become of the beachheads either side would start up in the other's territory? How quick could they get it to be similar to one of the already established bases that have been around for a while?

Edit: Maybe someone should move these posts into a new thread?

[Mike DiCenso]

Gstone brings up a good point there. The way hyperdrive is portrayed in SW, it seems to be very temperamental where navigation is concerned, so the Imperials just jumping into Federation space as they please will not be likely to happen the way some of the Warsies like to portray it. The same would be true for the Federation or any other ST power attempting to find their way around the SW galaxy. But at least with warp, you can slowly make some headway around a local area of several tens of light years ala Voyager's journey through the Delta Quadrent, while an Imperial expeditionary force will likely be forced to make very small hyperspace jumps, and sit in a system or between systems for possibly long stretches trying to probe their way around, or obtain from locals the information they need to calculate their next jump safely.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Edit: Maybe someone should move these posts into a new thread?

Done.

I know I've probably covered what my opinion is:

The number of starships is roughly on par. Although observed SW ship firepower is much lower as a rule, the typical size ratio for the fuel types (fusion, hydrocarbons vs slush deuterium M/AM) suggests that the average starships should have a similar order of firepower, although the ST ships have a significant tactical edge that goes beyond raw firepower.

[GStone]

Tactically, either side would have to keep whatever beachhead they started with a secret. Neither invading side would be able to walk around like the 800 lb gorilla right off the bat.

[Mike DiCenso]

Interestingly enough, I think that the two different groups of Humans of the SW and ST galaxies could for a time pass themselves off in each other's territories to reconnoiter and gain valuable intelligence on each other providing there was a wormhole or other means of travel across the distance and the time. This is the most likely and realistic scenario for the start of a conflict, or just even basic contact between the two powers, and not thousands of ships pouring through from either one side or both.
-Mike

[AFT]

Oh My God!! My very first topic! And it wasn’t even my intention to star one! I’m so happy! Well, now that the happiness is out of the way, let’s move to the topic at hand:

I don’t known about the Death Star, for the most part of the Empire’s history, a short one I might add, the Death Star wasn’t available, and for that matter if the Empire has a so vast industrial capacity why they just built 1.5 Death Stars in 25+ years of history? Obviously, even for the Empire the Death Stars were a massive project that consumed a lot of resources.

To add to the comments from Mike DiCenso, the make-up of the Dominion fleet at the very begging of the battle during "What You Leave Behind", before the Cardassians switched sides, was:

13 Breen ships
7 Galors
4 Jem’Hadar Attack Ships
7 Jem’Hadar Battlecruiser/Battleships

As shown on screen (I counted them). So, yes, the balance of light, medium and heavy ships on the Dominion fleet is quite good. And of course that’s not all of the fleet but meant to be a representative sample, after all is what we as the viewers saw.

Ahh the Dodonna quote, that why in a previous post I stated that debates can become really tiresome, long before I involve myself in the whole ST vs. SW thing it was clear to me that he meant the weapons emplacements on the surface and not the Superlaser as Mike quite accurately elaborates.

[l33telboi]

Another point that comes to mind when talking about the logistics in a realistic encounter between the two powers is the current state of the two respective organisations. For the Federation, this will vary greatly depending on when exactly the war will come. But when it comes to the Imperials, they will at all points be in the same state. Which is that they will have to not only contend with the Federation, but also internal strife.

So in a war, it would be impossible for the Imps be send their entire fleet over to conquer the Feds. They need a large quantity of that fleet to monitor their own holdings. Sending too large a force against the feds will mean open revolt.

And then there's the guerilla problem if they actually do manage to conquer the Federation.

In vs. debates i've seen this same most basic mistake made over and over again. People seem to think that a war is all about pitting one army against another. Well it's not. You have to take into the account the people and politics around you too.

So in short: The Imps will not, and can not, send all their ships against the Federation.

All that text and it could all be summarized in one sentance. I've outdone myself.

[AnonymousRedShirtEnsign]

Good point, the way non-Imperial and non-UFP factions would act upon news of the war would be very different. The other AQ/BQ races would rally around the Federation to drive off the invaders. If they show that they can be successful in battle against the Empire, then the Rebel Alliance and any other enemies the Empire hasn't yet destroyed will view this as an opportunity to strike the Empire when it isn't ready.

[Mike DiCenso]

I have brought up that very point since the early years of the debate. Warsies usually tend to invoke excuses like the Rebel Alliance was of mere insignicance to the Empire. They also tend to claim that the Empire would ramp up starship production, often citing the tired old claim of "if they built 1.6 Death Stars they can obviously produce millions apon millions of ISDs on demand... just like that!
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Man, it sure is strange arguing from the SW side of things... :)

Ok, lets start disagreeing... :)

So generally I would say that trying to make a case for the Empire winning on the basis of large capital ships is a shakey one at best.

Ok, so I agree on this point, but that's not what I meant.
The Empire controls over 1 000 000 systems... The sheer quantity of Starships it can muster for one single engagement will be way higher than any Alpha or Beta quadrant power could.
Look, guys, when 2500 ships coming in as reinforcements are estimated sufficient to screw the Feddie-Rommie-Klingie (ok, never tell a Klingon I called it a Klingie please... :) ) fleets, then an industrial power which has many hundreds to at least a thousand times more ships will be a force to reckon with...

I don’t known about the Death Star, for the most part of the Empire’s history, a short one I might add, the Death Star wasn’t available, and for that matter if the Empire has a so vast industrial capacity why they just built 1.5 Death Stars in 25+ years of history? Obviously, even for the Empire the Death Stars were a massive project that consumed a lot of resources.

Of course, but an Empire capable of building a whole new fleet of warships in the span of 5 years seems impressive to me.
The Republic only had Acclamators at the start of the Clone Wars, and during most of the Clone Wars too, but then all of a sudden, by RotS they only use the new Venator-class Star Destroyer.
That means they must have been building Venators by the bucket load during the first years of the war.

So in short: The Imps will not, and can not, send all their ships against the Federation.

Agreed, but even a fraction of a fleet that could number over a million ships will be huge indeed...

They also tend to claim that the Empire would ramp up starship production, often citing the tired old claim of "if they built 1.6 Death Stars they can obviously produce millions apon millions of ISDs on demand... just like that!

Of course not, but their production capacity is nothing to scoff at.
If we are to believe the EU, in addition to building a second DeathStar between TEsB and RotJ, they built over 4 SSDs, added some ISD IIs (by the way, is there any canon onfo on the difference between an ISD I and II?) along the way.
I'd say it's still pretty impressive.
And while Starfleet had to take ships out of mothballing for the Dominion war, the Empire was never seen using older classes of ships against the Rebels in the OT.

And like some of you said earlier, obtaining Star Charts and maps won't be difficult for the Imps, so their progress through the Alpha Quadrant won't be that slow.

Again, I'm not saying ship for ship the Empire blows the Feds away, I'm simply talking about numbers and productions capabilities.
The Empire simply has more ressources to bring to this little fracas then the Feddies.
Of course, if the Romulans and the Klingons ally themselves with the Feds, the Imperials might find themselves drawn into a costly conflict...

And it gets even worse if they first start with the Delta Quadrant...
Borg anyone?... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

So generally I would say that trying to make a case for the Empire winning on the basis of large capital ships is a shakey one at best.

Praeothmin wrote:
Ok, so I agree on this point, but that's not what I meant.
The Empire controls over 1 000 000 systems... The sheer quantity of Starships it can muster for one single engagement will be way higher than any Alpha or Beta quadrant power could.
Look, guys, when 2500 ships coming in as reinforcements are estimated sufficient to screw the Feddie-Rommie-Klingie (ok, never tell a Klingon I called it a Klingie please... :) ) fleets, then an industrial power which has many hundreds to at least a thousand times more ships will be a force to reckon with...

You need to get your facts straight. It was a fleet of of 2,800 Dominion ships, and it would have most certainly 'screw over' the Klingon-Federation (no Romulans involved at the time of SoA) fleet trying to retake DS9.

And let's keep things in perspective. The Dominion and it's allies at it's known peek at some 30,000 capital ships, and was building more. The Fed-Rom-Klingon fleet was a comparable match for this at it's height and was maintaining their respective forces against horrendous losses ("At a cost of thousands of ships"). Except for the Death Star construction, we have never seen even the Galactic Republic during the Clone Wars produce a fleet of that size in such a short time.

Another thing. Tarkin's quote from the ANH novelization places the Empire at "a million systems", not "over a million", while the true canon of AoTC and RoTS movies indicates considerably less than this in size, perhaps tens of thousands, and maybe the low hundreds of thousands going by the PT novelizations.

I don’t known about the Death Star, for the most part of the Empire’s history, a short one I might add, the Death Star wasn’t available, and for that matter if the Empire has a so vast industrial capacity why they just built 1.5 Death Stars in 25+ years of history? Obviously, even for the Empire the Death Stars were a massive project that consumed a lot of resources.

Praeothmin wrote:
Of course, but an Empire capable of building a whole new fleet of warships in the span of 5 years seems impressive to me.
The Republic only had Acclamators at the start of the Clone Wars, and during most of the Clone Wars too, but then all of a sudden, by RotS they only use the new Venator-class Star Destroyer.
That means they must have been building Venators by the bucket load during the first years of the war.

Keep in mind that the Clone Wars spanned a time period of some 3 years, and we have little idea of how many ships either the CIS or Republic built during that time. Perhaps several hundred, perhaps several thousand ships. But not millions, if the confirmable ship counts are anything to go by.

By contrast, recall what I note above with the Federation and it's allies building replacements by the thousands during the course of the Dominion War. Another interesting note; the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order on their own, and without their governments knowing it, built a fleet of 20 vessels.

So in short: The Imps will not, and can not, send all their ships against the Federation.

Agreed, but even a fraction of a fleet that could number over a million ships will be huge indeed...

Except that they may not have anywhere near that many to send.

They also tend to claim that the Empire would ramp up starship production, often citing the tired old claim of "if they built 1.6 Death Stars they can obviously produce millions apon millions of ISDs on demand... just like that!

Praeothmin wrote:
Of course not, but their production capacity is nothing to scoff at.
If we are to believe the EU, in addition to building a second DeathStar between TEsB and RotJ, they built over 4 SSDs, added some ISD IIs (by the way, is there any canon onfo on the difference between an ISD I and II?) along the way.
I'd say it's still pretty impressive.
And while Starfleet had to take ships out of mothballing for the Dominion war, the Empire was never seen using older classes of ships against the Rebels in the OT.

That's the EU, of course. We can assume that during 20 + years the Empire built ISDs to supplement their fleet, which as has been pointed out, probably still consists of Venators and Acclamators. I don't think the Empire just started completely from scratch. Conversely, the Federation has been seen introducing large starships from the Nebula through the Galaxy, and the Sovereign classes in a 20 year time period. It's all relative to how you look at things.

Praeothmin wrote:
And like some of you said earlier, obtaining Star Charts and maps won't be difficult for the Imps, so their progress through the Alpha Quadrant won't be that slow.

Actually, the point was is that it would be difficult for both sides of the conflict to obtain reliable star charts...

Praeothmin wrote:
Again, I'm not saying ship for ship the Empire blows the Feds away, I'm simply talking about numbers and productions capabilities.
The Empire simply has more ressources to bring to this

Certainly that is true, but the point of the thread is how much the Imperials can bring through. That they would bring a bazillion ships through on Day One is highly unlikely, and it probably would be months or possibly even years before things really warmed up, just as was the case for the Dominion War.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

I like this debate... :)

You need to get your facts straight. It was a fleet of of 2,800 Dominion ships, and it would have most certainly 'screw over' the Klingon-Federation (no Romulans involved at the time of SoA) fleet trying to retake DS9.

Size of fleet coming through corrected... :)
As for the beating of the allied fleet, that's what I said:

are estimated sufficient to screw the Feddie-Rommie-Klingie (ok, never tell a Klingon I called it a Klingie please... :)

So we agree on that... Cool!

The Dominion and it's allies at it's known peek at some 30,000 capital ships, and was building more.

I've always wondered where those estimates for fleet sizes came from, and how people calculated them.

Tarkin's quote from the ANH novelization places the Empire at "a million systems", not "over a million", while the true canon of AoTC and RoTS movies indicates considerably less than this in size, perhaps tens of thousands, and maybe the low hundreds of thousands going by the PT novelizations.

I would venture that the expentionistic Empire augmented their holdings a lot between RotS and ANH, explaining why Tarkin talks about a million systems (including colonies and mining worlds IMO) while during the Clone Wars, at the beginning of the Empire it only had tens to a low hundreds of thousands of systems.
That may explain the discrepancies between the OT and the PT.

Keep in mind that the Clone Wars spanned a time period of some 3 years, and we have little idea of how many ships either the CIS or Republic built during that time. Perhaps several hundred, perhaps several thousand ships. But not millions, if the confirmable ship counts are anything to go by.

By contrast, recall what I note above with the Federation and it's allies building replacements by the thousands during the course of the Dominion War. Another interesting note; the Tal'Shiar and the Obsidian Order on their own, and without their governments knowing it, built a fleet of 20 vessels.

Yes, but don't forget two things:
First, like you said, we don't know how many ships the Empire built during that time, both numbers you state could be valid.
And second, Empire ships have many times the mass of even the biggest Federation capital ship, whose most massive ship is the Galaxy class which, according to the tech manual I believe, has a mass of around 4 500 000 kg.
I'm pretty sure even a Venator masses at least three to five times this (I'll admit I didn't really calculate using volumetrics, I am simply guestimating... :) ).

Except that they may not have anywhere near that many to send.

I say it would be really Warsie-like to estimate a ship count of about 2-3 ships per system for the federations (1500 hundred systems as of ST:FC if memory serves), if not more, and to refuse a similar number for the Empire.
That is why, trying to be fair, I estimate, if by ANH they had 1000000 systems, that they had 1000000 ships in their Starfleet.
Even 1/10th of this is still 100 000 ships, 1/20th is 50 000 ships, so IMO, they can send many ships to try to conquer the Feds.
And by ANH, their only real enemies were the Rebels, which wasn't that big of a threat.
In fact, had it not been for a certain Force user and his Smuggler friend, the rebels would have been wiped out -twice.

That's the EU, of course. We can assume that during 20 + years the Empire built ISDs to supplement their fleet, which as has been pointed out, probably still consists of Venators and Acclamators. I don't think the Empire just started completely from scratch. Conversely, the Federation has been seen introducing large starships from the Nebula through the Galaxy, and the Sovereign classes in a 20 year time period. It's all relative to how you look at things.

As I said earlier, Imperial ships mass many times even the biggest Federation ships, so even a one to three ratio in favor of the Feds (and that's a big if IMO) still means equal capabilities.
And while the Feds built only ships (and revived mothballed ones, as proven by the many Miranda and Excelsior classes still in service) during that time, the Empire built new kinds of bigger ships... and a DeathStar...

Actually, the point was is that it would be difficult for both sides of the conflict to obtain reliable star charts

Below is the post that made me think it would be easy for Imps to talk to Ferengi and get the charts they needed... :)

Assuming that the distance between the 2 civilizations wasn't a worry (however it is circumvented), it'd be smart for an Imperial intel operative to get star charts for their navcomputers before the fighting started. They could buy some from one of the outer systems, but it'd be cheaper and still wouldn't raise suspicions, if it was gotten within the Federation itself.

And for my final point of this reply:

Certainly that is true, but the point of the thread is how much the Imperials can bring through. That they would bring a bazillion ships through on Day One is highly unlikely, and it probably would be months or possibly even years before things really warmed up, just as was the case for the Dominion War.

Of course the Imperials would not, and could not bring in even half their forces in play, but as I stated earlier, even 1/20th of their total fleet would be a huge one indeed.
And I'm pretty sure that the Dominion did not attack full-out from the get go because they had to make sure that the Feds would only ally themselves with all the other powers in the Alpha and Beta quadrant.
Remember that they made deals with the Cardies, the Romies (which was broken only after a ploy from Sisko) before they openly declared war on the Feds. They had even softened the Klingons and Cardies by pitting them against each other beforehand.
And, they had no Deathstar... :)

I don't think invading the Federation would be a cakewalk for the Empire.
I just think they would win due to greater material ressources, and bigger forces.