A formal challenge to Jedi Master Spock

VS debates involving other fictional universes than Star Trek or Star Wars go here, along with technical analysis, detailed discussion, crossover scenario descriptions, and similar related stuffs.
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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:24 am

Thanatos wrote:
As stated above, I am willing to debate you on an individual basis.
I'll have to take that as an affirmative.

The format needs to get knocked out first before any scenario. I acquiesce to the point about delays in posting and instead propose that it be done in open ended rounds with a maximum delay of 7 days between emailed responses.
I think that 7 days is quite sufficient. We are agreed, then.
This gives leeway for personal engagements and research while keeping it to a maximum schedule. I also proposed a delayed start after all details are finalized to give each side research time. I prefer a 5-10 round limit.
I am ready to start the debate now.

From prior experience, I would suggest that we go to the low end of that range. After having already argued over the topic for a number of posts, we should be able to hash over matters fairly completely in an exchange of ten posts total (5 each).

I would also like to propose a limit of 2500 words, with word counts not including quotes of each other or source material, per post.
Given the more open ended schedule, I would then propose that the posting of responses be delayed by two rounds.
That would mean that the reply to material would be delayed by up to two weeks. I think one week is adequate time to respond.
For format, I prefer the format of simultaneous answer with the first part of each response being a rebuttal to the arguments made in the previous round and the second part being a new argument. Each person tells the other when they have completed theres and when both are done, they are exchanged.

This keeps the debate on even footing rather than the person who responds first being put on the defensive.

I am willing to hear a counter proposal on rules to see if we can come to a consensus.
I would rather go first myself and be shorted the final reply than try to manage a "simultaneous" e-mail exchange debate.

If you are of the opinion that going first is a disadvantage, then if we're to try to be fair, we should outline some mutually willing compromise.

I do not consider going first a disadvantage, although I consider going last to be a minor advantage. Since you didn't mention that, I am quite willing to make both a brief (<1000 word) first post (putting me "on the defensive," as you put it, for the remainder of the argument) and close with a brief (<1000 word) final rebuttal. I, of course, think that gives me an advantage; if you think it gives you an advantage, we should go with that.

We could also pick randomly who goes first, but if you will not agree to sequential posting any other way, I am quite willing to take the relatively minor structural disadvantage of posting first and allowing you the final post in turn. It is not very important IMO.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:38 am

Going first requires more... skills I believe. If properly handled, one could have the discussion already going in a particular advantageous direction.

Besides, such exchanges rarely end with people admitting being wrong for most of their claims, so even the last person to reply will only maintain a semblance of victory, but we all know (I hope) than the "pre-last" post can suffice on its own to address most of the issues.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:49 am

l33telboi wrote:Alright, I have a few suggestions on the scenario bit. Mind you I haven't got a clue as to the actual military aspects of either side so this might turn out to be completely unworkable and unfair. BT and WH40K never really interested me. However, since no one is under any obligation to even consider this - here are the suggestions:

First off I think it'd be a good idea if the scenario would resemble the one in the original thread. But I also think it could be simplified by quite a bit, making the debate shorter as there'd be fewer issues to debate and resolve.

So how about this; a standard assault scenario where one force is assigned to attack a position held by the other side. This position being a city for instance. Naturally if such a scenario were to be considered it’d have to be split it in two to make things fair - so that BT attacks WH40K in one scenario and WH40K attacks BT in another, but identical, scenario. This would resemble, IMO, a scaled down version of the battle of Tukayyid (but then my knowledge on that is rather minimal).

Also, if you want to spruce things up a bit, you could have the assaulting force start off a distance from the city they're supposed to attack and then have them tackle various obstacles as they advance towards the city. Much like happened in some of the smaller individual assaults on Tukayyid. Obstacles could include stuff like ambush, differing terrain, dealing with enemy air support, etc. This I think would add more variables to the debate and make it a whole lot more interesting overall.

The goal would of course then be for the ‘attacking’ debater to theorize on how his force would go about achieving their goals and how that force would respond to these so called obstacles. While the ‘defending’ debater would naturally object and formulate his own conclusions on how an individual battle would go.

Yes/No/Maybe?
I'll say "maybe." I'd rather we not concentrate on trying to come up with creative tactics whereby one side might win, but concentrate instead on what side would probably win.

I'd also like to take something I said early in the thread and build on it, to help measure how far apart Thanatos's and my opinions might be: State what size attacking force of what kind we think would be a fair match for a fixed defending force from the other universe.

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Post by l33telboi » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:34 am

Jedi Master Spock wrote:I'll say "maybe." I'd rather we not concentrate on trying to come up with creative tactics whereby one side might win, but concentrate instead on what side would probably win.
Might've come off differently but that is pretty much what I was suggesting. Anyone could come up with crazy tactics that can win the day. But the objective would be to convince people that what you're suggesting would be what would most likely happen.

Just a suggestion, of course.

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Post by Thanatos » Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:31 pm

Sorry about the tardiness of my reply, yesterday was a real Murphy's Law kind of day.

I would also like to propose a limit of 2500 words, with word counts not including quotes of each other or source material, per post.
Agreed.

That would mean that the reply to material would be delayed by up to two weeks. I think one week is adequate time to respond.
Alright, one round delayed then.
I would rather go first myself and be shorted the final reply than try to manage a "simultaneous" e-mail exchange debate.
Well, I was trying to suggest a fair way to do it, but if you want to go first, that's fine.

If we generally seem to be in agreement, I suggest we find some third parties to suggest. I'm approaching some right now.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:05 am

Thanatos wrote:If we generally seem to be in agreement, I suggest we find some third parties to suggest. I'm approaching some right now.
If we're unable to detail an agreeable scenario to muck through the specifics of, I'm quite willing to simply address the general case of ground warfare technology. I plan on starting out with a very broad overview in any case; our conclusions about their technological capabilities will in large part drive our conclusions for any scenario, and are likely to be the main area of disagreement.

If anybody is looking for hard figures on a perfectly "normal" Imperium force composition:
Gaunt's Ghosts: Necropolis wrote:Macaroth unleashed his might on the planet below. Six million Imperial Guardsmen, half a million tanks, squads drawn from three Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, and two Titan Legions.
This is an average of one tank per 12 guardsmen. Leman Russ variants have crews of 3-6 (including optional sponson gunners). If the average tank crew is 4.5, the remainder of the Guard is transported in Chimeras, this gives us one quarter million Chimeras, with roughly half the Imperial Guardsmen being infantry.

This gives us 6-7 tons of armored vehicle per guardsman; a typical full-strength (6000 man) regiment from the above force would average 40,000 tons of ground vehicles at its disposal. This force was deployed to defend a hive world.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:17 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:I plan on starting out with a very broad overview in any case...
Note that I now have an opening statement ready which, I believe, provides ample material for Thanatos to disagree with, and which I will probably have a use for regardless of whether or not a fair "opening scenario" is in play.

Thanatos, if you're ready, I will e-mail and/or post it here (I have already added BBCode formatting; if you want me to e-mail you directly, rather than reading it here, would you like it left in or stripped?), and we can simply start with that statement rather detailing some specific "X vs Y in situation Z" scenario.

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Post by Thanatos » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:36 pm

Sorry again for the delay, the company that laid me off decided that I didn't need all my pay from the last paycheck and shorted me a good deal of money.

Thanatos, if you're ready, I will e-mail and/or post it here (I have already added BBCode formatting; if you want me to e-mail you directly, rather than reading it here, would you like it left in or stripped?), and we can simply start with that statement rather detailing some specific "X vs Y in situation Z" scenario.
Well, I would rather have a fair scenario or debate selected before hand, but if you want to do it this way: Email it to me at ThanatosOfSB.com@gmail.com

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:07 pm

Sorry to hear about the layoff, Thanatos. I hope everything works out for you very soon, and you can get back to concentrating on more fun stuff.
-Mike

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:38 pm

Thanatos wrote:Sorry again for the delay, the company that laid me off decided that I didn't need all my pay from the last paycheck and shorted me a good deal of money.
Well, I hope you have a turn of better luck soon.
Well, I would rather have a fair scenario or debate selected before hand, but if you want to do it this way: Email it to me at ThanatosOfSB.com@gmail.com
Done.

I'll be posting my opening statement here for commentary momentarily. Anybody wishing to cross-post it elsewhere is welcome to, but I will ask that you have the courtesy to quote it accurately and completely if you do so.

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