The Wargamers' Special: Battle of Tukayyid 40,000

[Thanatos]

Standard engagement ranges for Warhammer forces is much shorter than 500m. We're talking about a battlefield where ogres with clubs get to engage APCs and tanks.

How about you actually try to back up your claim?

[Jedi Master Spock]

The Ghost Bears "drive" the shattered remnants of the 91st Division before them according to the Tukkyid sourcebook, and they "fail to achieve a proper defensive position"

The 91st's supplies were in Spanac.

Now, did they start in Spanac, loading mission-specific supplies upon hearing where the Ghost Bears were landing and with what forces, or did they start outside of Spanac, already anticipating exactly where the Ghost Bears would land? Does your sourcebook tell you that?

Like I said, I'm talking about the moment of landing. The Com Guard doesn't know where the opposition would land, although they can guess, and they have a number of divisions floating around each one.

Fortunately I possess the novel, the battlesuits in question were the personal bodyguard of the Tau commander the Last Chancers were sent to assassinate. Unless something has drastically changed in Tau background, Tau Commanders don't have some unknown smaller suits equipped with jump-packs and multiple weapons in use by their bodyguards, they have Crisis teams.

Point taken. Hypothetically possible, but highly unlikely. In that case, it is reasonable to assume crisis suits.

The only way we are dealing with a small suit is if by some odd leap of logic, a pupil of commander Farsight decided to go against every jot of Tau military doctrine and NOT equip his personal bodyguard/Crisis Team with fucking Crisis suits.

Unless you've got some indepth knowledge to reveal, concerning another large flying battlesuit with multiple weapon systems. Not to mention one of the Last Chancers actually gets inside one, then gets cremated by its security systems, without destroying the suit mind. Hardly likely this suit is contributing much to its own demise!

As for its own weapon systems causing the damage, just previously the Team is assaulted by a Deathwatch marine, and multiple weapon systems are destroyed, one even exploding on the Crisis suits, including a flamer and an energy cannon. The Suits aren't destroyed, they don't even lose the limbs.

By all means, pull out more quotes on this one. The scene with the Deathwatch marine in particular may give us more useful information overall than working to benchmark the lascannon. However:

Makes no real difference.

Actually, that makes a very real difference.

It can require a very high temperature to set some things on fire (e.g., bone), however, fire tends to be a highly exothermic reaction. While we may readily assume that the lascannon supplied the bulk of energy for melting the suit, or enough of its outer surface to help deform the suit and give it a molten surface, the fact of the matter is that 40 kg of fat burning provides the energy needed to melt 2.5 tons of steel. Chemical energy of the target is very significant when we're dealing with fire.

Not that the entire mass of the crisis suit is going to be armor; is this a 5-10 ton suit with 2.5 tons of armor, or a 2.5 ton suit with maybe a ton of armor?

This could be several times the game-mechanical benchmark of the BT large laser, depending on a few unknowns. I am betting this will prove to be the highest yield example, however, and it is strongly dependent on a number of unknown parameters - i.e., not necessarily incompatible with substantially lower yields.

Of a lascannon shooting at a Carnifex......

Where did I imply otherwise ?

I like it when any of my important assumptions are confirmed ;-P

Tyranids are classic scifi organictech, stupidly resilient. They possess high density endo+exoskeletons, their fluids contain cysts of "astonishingly high" thermal capacity gel.

Bad example.

Not really. Even if I assume it to be ten times as tough as actual modern organic materials, it's still not a very impressive yield.

Human sized bag of water versus actual human enclosed in thermally resistent armour...

What the hell ?

See above point about thermal energy provided by a burning target. This is primarily limited by the quantity of oxygen available. It seemed to me from your descriptions that most examples involved partial vaporization, excepting the one case in which the Space Marine's suit was hollowed out.

If you only melt an object, and don't set anything on fire, you don't have any other sources of energy. In a flash vaporization effect, we have very little idea what it's actually going on with the volatiles. As I said, the sort of incidents would suggest lascannons on par with BT large lasers.

The Deathwatcher in kill team is explicitly described as as 2.5 metres tall.

Including, or not including, the powered armor?

I actually mentioned a source for my quotes, what was the source for the Large laser tonnage damage ?

Numerous discussions of how closely BT fluff follows the mechanics, and several cases of people independently quantifying BT energy weapons on SB and BT forums.

However, I'll be perfectly happy to hit a few stacks and dig up actual quotes to support this half ton melting model. From my reading, I'm confident it will be easy to find such quotes. You've mentioned sources, but haven't actually given any quotes or context, which is next to useless; I wouldn't know what scene to look for even if I checked the Warhammer books out of the library to examine them.

I guess that lascannons couldn't possibly have managed it then.

Who knows? I don't trust the vague descriptions to include all the necessary information.

Heavy lasers are "common" on 40 ton mechs now ?

I meant that Urbanmechs and Panthers appear to be common battlemechs.

However, out of the list of mechs on Chaosmarch.com, the following 40 ton mechs have layouts with heavy lasers, or larger weapons:

1. Chimera
2. Cicada
3. Clint
4. Daimyo
5. Hermes II
6. Initiate
7. Sentinel
8. Sentry
9. Sha Yu
10. Strider
11. Vulcan
12. Watchman
13. Arctic Wolf
14. Battle Cobra
15. Clint IIC
16. Corvis
17. Griffin IIC
18. Lobo
19. Pouncer
20. Viper

The following do not have a heavy laser, or a larger weapon than the heavy laser, on any models:

1. Tsunami
2. Whitworth
3. Phantom

Now, I realize that Chaosmarch.com may not have all the battlemechs that have been published for BT, but I believe this means that large lasers are not atypically heavy weapons on 40 ton mechs, and they seem quite common on those.

What, because you say so ?

No, because that's the standard setup in every fluff scene I have so far seen quoted, the standard setup in every scenario that leads to a game, and the standard portrayal in illustration and scene. I'm not sure anything there shows engagement past 120m.

What point, you just decided that 40k armour engages at the smaller ranges of Battle-tech

Thats interesting, we just ignore weapon range.

I think you'll find that targets that don't mass in the tens of tons can take advantage of terrain with much greater ease than Mechs.

Range is fairly important in combat, although you don't seem to believe this is the case, weirdly.

The ranges that can't be differentiated in a worthwhile fashion, if we want to get picky.

We can actually make the claim that BT forces engage at longer range (by comparing game mechanics of both sides), or WH40K forces engage at longer range (by comparing select game mechanics of BT with select fluff of WH40K), but I don't think either claim is adequately justified - especially in the scenarios we're dealing with, where the terrain (hard-drop city combat, in fact, in the case of the Space Marines) restricts sight-lines substantially, lessening the impact of any range difference that actually exists.

For all your posting, you just can't come up with anything to contradict me with can you ?

I gave you the precise range of weapons seen in both the RPG and the regular board game, which contradicts your claims - both your specific earlier claim about small lasers being unable to threaten targets past 120 meters (they have a maximum effective range of 1500 meters in the RPG) and your general claim that BT non-artillery weapons can't strike at kilometer ranges.

Maximum tech actually includes rules for atmospheric dissipation of energy weapons, as for artifacts of the system being an explaination for short ranges.

Clearly the points are as well, you can't pick and choose which portions of the rules to disregard

Rules which have energy weapons losing a single point of damage in the "long" bracket... and increasing damage in the short bracket.

So ? I'm not sure where you are going with this, found another little titbit in Battleforce though,

You seemed to have forgotten to finish your sentence.

Actually I do, if firing even small lasers at civilians at point blank range results in merely merely fried humans, not vapourised ones, then as I said, destroying armour doesn't mean its been completely stripped from that target location, it means its been compromised to the extent of uselessness.

By all means, quote away.

Individual lasers don't have tracking systems, the battlemech sensors and fire control are generally centralised, nor are there seperate "turrets", go look at the mech designs.

What you are arguing for is 300kg worth of powerfeeds it would seem, as opposed to a smaller weapon.

To claim that their weaponry is equal is logically impossible, the heatsinks and reactors that allow the output and rate of fire of Battle-mech mounted guns actually outmass the suits the Comguard will be using.

300 kg of powerfeeds, cooling, and training/tracking systems.

I'm not talking about the T&T computers. I'm talking about the servos that swivel the laser on target. The 5"/38 classic naval flak gun used in the US navy only massed 2 tons; single gun mountings for it, however, ranged from 13 to 19 tons.

The actual gun of most main battle tanks only weighs a couple tons. The turret assembly, however, is usually at least another 5-10 tons.

The small laser, as mounted on battlemechs or tanks, may have a separate turret or other independent training system. A compact mounting system can easily drop the mass investment by a factor of 2-3.

A ten megawatt laser could put out several hundred megajoules of energy if it fired long enough.

We're talking about a matter of brief seconds in both cases.

Certainly, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on why the 40k forces aren't going to engage at longer ranges with their much more capable guns..

Longer ranges than what?

I don't have to in this instance, the facts speak for themselves, and the numbers you come up with are debunked not on their maths generally, but on the logic you use to arrive at them.

You need to come up with numbers to actually have hard figures to compare.

40 years before Tukkyid, infantry laser rifles were 5 megawatt range

You need to cite where you're getting that figure from before you try using it.

Nor is the "laser rifle" the standard laser infantry weapon. That honor would appear to belong to a device known as the "blazer," which is about the size of a lasgun (7 kg).

As I've pointed out, you don't seem to grasp how what amounts to large infantry blokes getting into combat with close combat doesn't automagically mean the rest of the galaxy is forced to engage like that.

And Titans never go into melee with each other? They do. Shall I go dig up and quote an incident from the Codex Titanicus, which is in fluff beside the section about close combat?

In warhammer, a Knife is a really good weapon if you happen to be standing next to a bloke while you use it. The existence of cannon fodder infantry in 40k doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the range of a lascannon, or the willingness of its operator to use it.

Thankfully I'm not stupid enough to have claimed that game-mechanics make for the most pertinent and high ranking source of evidence, so I don't have to deal with the shorter ranges of 40k based on the scale of models, although Epics scale makes for some laughs in that regard.

Actually, I'm curious, since you seem to be wanting to tell the figures - what scale does Epic use? I know that regular WH40K gives us ridiculously short ranges.

I'm not sure how seriously I'm meant to be taking this, Ogryns get into close combat, and that means that warhammer armies always fight in close.

Ogryns go for close combat. Space marines go for close combat. Orks go for close combat. Freaking Titans even engage in close combat with each other.

Every army you've listed has tube/rocket artillery as part of its arsenal, barring the Ogrynsm and debatably the Sororitas and long range fire support is a fact of life in 40k, as well as stupendously long range weaponry.

Stupendously long range artillery is a fact of life in BT as well.

Now, something else to chew on. Kinetic weapons. As mentioned, the kinetic energy of a WH40K main tank gun is pegged in one book as 5 megajoules, similar to the muzzle energy of a modern 120mm tank gun.

How well would Warhammer armor fare against fire from, say, the 200mm automatic gun of the Hunchback battlemech, supposedly several generations more advanced than the modern tank gun?

How well would it fare against the BT gauss rifle, which has enormously more kinetic energy than WH40K tank rounds, but isn't explosive?

Is the .75 caliber Bolter, with rocket-propelled explosive rounds, any different from a gyrojet rifle in the BT universe? More powerful? Less?

[Jedi Master Spock]

Standard engagement ranges for Warhammer forces is much shorter than 500m. We're talking about a battlefield where ogres with clubs get to engage APCs and tanks.

How about you actually try to back up your claim?

Was I the one who first mentioned Ogryns engaging light vehicles? Curiously enough, no.

You might like the latest cinematic I linked to, of course. Or you might go back and read all the novel quotes involving ground forces, and think about how many of them involve point blank ranges, or you might look at the illustrations on and in WH40K books, or you might consider the emphasis on melee weapons and close combat.

[Thanatos]

. Or you might go back and read all the novel quotes involving ground forces

I don't have to look at anything since you were the one making the claim that 40K has standard engagement ranges were "much shorter than 500m" and that "I'm not sure anything there shows engagement past 120m. ".

You've done basically nothing to try to back up your assertion. Did you do any scaling on the video to determine the range? Nope! Did you do any research into the books? Nope. Did you do any research into the fluff from the rulebooks? Nope! Did you take into account the fact that the artwork is well, artwork? Nope! Did you do any god damn thing to back up any of your claims besides vague references to bodies of work at large? NOPE!

You honestly call yourself a debater? I have numerous examples of small arms engagements at 300-3000 meters and further examples of light AT weapons firing at ranges of at least 400m, and crew served weapons firing at distances of 2-4km. I have snipers engaging targets from kilometers away. I have personal and academic examples in how engagement distances can be extremely short due to terrain effects and tactics. I can point out how melee skirmishes still occur. Etc, etc, etc.

I have evidence, something you apparently have never dreamed about using!

Like this:

Even if I assume it to be ten times as tough as actual modern organic materials, it's still not a very impressive yield.

You've obviously chosen to do absolutely no research into this claim. Tyranid armor is made of actual armor materials such as ceramite and adamantium.

You're lucky you have a site you can hide on. You'd get eaten alive on almost any debate forum. If you aren't going to even pretend to debate right in this thread, I'm out of here. If you try to claim this is a concession, you're an even bigger loser than people give you credit for.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I don't have to look at anything since you were the one making the claim that 40K has standard engagement ranges were "much shorter than 500m" and that "I'm not sure anything there shows engagement past 120m."

Did you miss anything about the long laundry list of combatants that tend towards melee combat in WH40K?

I would say you're obliged to actually look carefully at what you're criticizing if you want to be convincing in your claims.

You've done basically nothing to try to back up your assertion. Did you do any scaling on the video to determine the range?

The ranges being largely <120m in that video is painfully obvious from even a brief watch.

I don't need to count pixels to tell that, any more than I need to count pixels to determine that Iron Monger is (a) substantially larger than Iron Man and (b) substantially smaller than a BT mech. I don't need to do any work to guess that a Star Destroyer is somewhelre between a hundred and a thousand times the length of a TIE fighter (accurately).

Similarly, I don't need to do anything to be quite well aware that bolters and tank guns, at least, should be capable of presenting a threat at multi-km ranges - and likewise, with ballistic BT weapons. Velocity and precision dictate a certain degree of potential long range lethality for high velocity projectiles; air resistance only does so much to rob projectiles of their energy.

If you have a high velocity supersonic projectile (as, for example, the Gauss rifle is) and can freely elevate, depress, and aim it, hitting a target at a couple kilometers is a simple matter of computation and precision.

Nope! Did you do any research into the books?

I've been looking through selections of "key" quotes and yes, rulebooks.

You honestly call yourself a debater? I have numerous examples

"I have numerous examples," you say, and yet present nothing.

Why?

I have presented limited information - however, I have presented actual evidence, actual quotes, and actual material, to the extent that I can dig it up, from both BT and WH40K sourcebooks. You have simply complained.

You've obviously chosen to do absolutely no research into this claim. Tyranid armor is made of actual armor materials such as ceramite and adamantium.

Tyranid armor is not the matter that is problematic in that incident and indicating low yield. Most problematic is the very liquid blood running from the wound.

Exploding the head of an 8 ton beastie (give or take a couple tons, with spattering organic matter everywhere), if its skin and skull are made of the same things as Space Marine armor, is still dramatically less energetic than vaporizing an entire Space Marine suit. Even considering the fact that the skull is heavily reinforced, we're still not dealing with a yield more than the e8 joule range.

If you try to claim this is a concession, you're an even bigger loser than people give you credit for.

Thanatos, a couple things. First, why are you here in the first place if all you're interested in is carping about me and not actually making any arguments?

Second, I recommend you read this post regarding claiming concessions. Now, I may think you're offering no argument of note towards any actual material claim re: BT and WH40K, but I see no reason to misapprehend that as any sort of concession made by you.

[Thanatos]

Note: Gniops is currently running on semaphore speed internet connection and can barely even load this page, much less post. So I am posting his response for him as a favor. Everything that follows is his post, not mine.

The 91st's supplies were in Spanac.

Oh for....

So fucking what ? Do you seriously think modern troops take all their kit with them on an operation ?

Now, did they start in Spanac, loading mission-specific supplies upon hearing where the Ghost Bears were landing and with what forces, or did they start outside of Spanac, already anticipating exactly where the Ghost Bears would land? Does your sourcebook tell you that?

My sourcebook could tell me they didn't even have a city called spanec and I don't think it'd make a difference to you.

Like I said, I'm talking about the moment of landing. The Com Guard doesn't know where the opposition would land, although they can guess, and they have a number of divisions floating around each one.

What makes you think that ? The Com Guard by all appearances knew exactly where the Clans were landing, given that their entire strategy was predicated on WHERE the Clans landed, and with what forces.

Its difficult to lure someone into a fucking marsh if they land on the other side of the city to the thing.

By all means, pull out more quotes on this one. The scene with the Deathwatch marine in particular may give us more useful information overall than working to benchmark the lascannon. However:

Yeah, I'll go a pull fuck all until you start reciprocating.

can require a very high temperature to set some things on fire (e.g., bone), however, fire tends to be a highly exothermic reaction. While we may readily assume that the lascannon supplied the bulk of energy for melting the suit, or enough of its outer surface to help deform the suit and give it a molten surface, the fact of the matter is that 40 kg of fat burning provides the energy needed to melt 2.5 tons of steel. Chemical energy of the target is very significant when we're dealing with fire.

Battlesuit security systems reduce people to ash and bone, and remain completely functional.

The pilot didn't make a damn bit of difference to this, apart from maybe fueling the utterly secondary "fiery" portion of the description, if we should even be being that anal about the wording.

Not that the entire mass of the crisis suit is going to be armor; is this a 5-10 ton suit with 2.5 tons of armor, or a 2.5 ton suit with maybe a ton of armor?

Wouldn't matter if there was less than a ton of armour, the suit itself is going to be made of highly resistent and strong materials throughout its construction.

Not really. Even if I assume it to be ten times as tough as actual modern organic materials, it's still not a very impressive yield.

Organic materials ? Tyranids use inorganic materials, and biological technobabble, or do you think that "modern" organic materials allow for 5000 metre+ long beasties ?

As I said, the sort of incidents would suggest lascannons on par with BT large lasers.

If only you'd bothered to even justify B-tech large lasers blasting a half ton of armour. Please tell me you've not been working off some half-assed game mechanic with this.

Including, or not including, the powered armor?

What do you think ?

How much taller do you think he'd be in his armoured incidentally ?

Numerous discussions of how closely BT fluff follows the mechanics, and several cases of people independently quantifying BT energy weapons on SB and BT forums.

"take my word for it " in other words, and you bloody wibble about me quoting stuff you bloody hypocrite.

You've mentioned sources, but haven't actually given any quotes or context, which is next to useless; I wouldn't know what scene to look for even if I checked the Warhammer books out of the library to examine them.

Please don't say you'd actually go and check a book out of the library simply to look for a single line.

See the above section for my disgust at your double standard of evidence.

Who knows? I don't trust the vague descriptions to include all the necessary information.

Whereas I'm supposed to trust you ? With your established practise of actually making stuff up ?

Now, I realize that Chaosmarch.com may not have all the battlemechs that have been published for BT, but I believe this means that large lasers are not atypically heavy weapons on 40 ton mechs, and they seem quite common on those.

a "larger" weapon doesn't mean as much as you think it does, have you looked at the various weapon stats ?

I don't see any sort of problem with what I've said thanks.

No, because that's the standard setup in every fluff scene I have so far seen quoted, the standard setup in every scenario that leads to a game, and the standard portrayal in illustration and scene. I'm not sure anything there shows engagement past 120m.

Is that right ? I guess that means any other evidence should be disregarded.

The situation doesn't compare remotely, the game mechanics in 40k don't have some retarded equal in the background fiction. i.e. the Parti-kill PPC or SRM pack ranges for B-Tech are as short-arsed in the fluff text as they are in the rules.

We can actually make the claim that BT forces engage at longer range (by comparing game mechanics of both sides),

Game-mechanics in 40k are recognisably not the most accurate depiction of the universe. This isn't the case with battle-tech, particularly if you decide that B-tech games mechancis are the "highest canon" as you repeatedly have.

or WH40K forces engage at longer range (by comparing select game mechanics of BT with select fluff of WH40K)

Actually, we can determine that 40k ground forces engage at longer ranges by comparison of background for both sides.

but I don't think either claim is adequately justified - especially in the scenarios we're dealing with, where the terrain (hard-drop city combat, in fact, in the case of the Space Marines) restricts sight-lines substantially, lessening the impact of any range difference that actually exists.

Outside of the cities, what makes you think the Imperial forces, (the ones you've fielded that actually use guns mind) are going to be in the same situation as the Clans ?

They aren't going to mindlessly charge into the swamps for example, they might...*gasp* go around!

I gave you the precise range of weapons seen in both the RPG and the regular board game, which contradicts your claims - both your specific earlier claim about small lasers being unable to threaten targets past 120 meters (they have a maximum effective range of 1500 meters in the RPG) and your general claim that BT non-artillery weapons can't strike at kilometer ranges.

Welcome to Battle-tech, contradictory mess that it is. But unfortunately, you are still using game mechanic ranges, I've got fluff text. Guess which I give a shit about ?

Rules which have energy weapons losing a single point of damage in the "long" bracket... and increasing damage in the short bracket.

Oh noes!

You seemed to have forgotten to finish your sentence.

I honestly can't be arsed to go back and check what it was, if it was from battleforce, it was probably some mechs shooting each other at 500 metres again.

By all means, quote away.

Uhuh, you first asshole.

300 kg of powerfeeds, cooling, and training/tracking systems.

The 3513 tech book describes Battle armour weaponry as scaled up infantry weaponry, which pretty much nixes this.

I'm talking about the servos that swivel the laser on target.

Um, thats usually there regardless of what you put in the mech mate.

5"/38 classic naval flak gun used in the US navy only massed 2 tons; single gun mountings for it, however, ranged from 13 to 19 tons.

Very nice, but the arms don't come off when you swap some lasers out, go look at the models.

We're talking about a matter of brief seconds in both cases.

One would hope so, B-tech lasers destroy themselves if fired for too long.

but then, I don't think I've seen this background text for the large laser yet

Longer ranges than what?

Battle-tech guns....hello ?

You need to come up with numbers to actually have hard figures to compare.

Yeeeah, you're not getting me are you, read what I said again.

You need to cite where you're getting that figure from before you try using it.

Some random Battle-tech website or something, fuck knows.

I don't think you can exactly complain about it either, given your entire fucking argument is apparently predicated on this level of evidence.

Nor is the "laser rifle" the standard laser infantry weapon. That honor would appear to belong to a device known as the "blazer," which is about the size of a lasgun (7 kg).

bwahahhahahaha

And Titans never go into melee with each other? They do. Shall I go dig up and quote an incident from the Codex Titanicus, which is in fluff beside the section about close combat?

Why don't you go dig up that quote about them engaging targets appearing on the horizon while you are at it you dishonest bugger.

Actually, I'm curious, since you seem to be wanting to tell the figures - what scale does Epic use? I know that regular WH40K gives us ridiculously short ranges.

Presumably thats why you are so anxious to use its game mechanics.

Ogryns go for close combat. Space marines go for close combat. Orks go for close combat. Freaking Titans even engage in close combat with each other.

Ogryns are armed as "standard" with 20mm automatic shotguns! They happen to pretty good at bludgeoning people though. The Monglors and their ilk are the rarety. Ogryns go for close assault.

Even the assault heavy space marines use guns, you'd be hard pressed to find marines without some form of pistol or firearm, and those few that don't are the exception, not the rule. The "classic" image of a space marine is one with a gun, and its what most of them have. They are actually highly mobile shock assault troops, you do realise this don't you ?

You understand the context in which these weapons come into play, that the guys with swords (and pistols, and usually high explosive demo-charges, or tank busting directed energy mines) actually operate as part of a team, and physically "take" locations.


Orks have "massive" guns, they use artillery and long range guns all the time, virtually every ork model has a gun! The Orkish Mega-gargant has "one" close combat weapon, and from memory, about a dozen other distinct weapon systems.

Freaking Titans even engage in close combat with each other

Why shouldn't they ? If they end up in a scenario which requires close quarters battle, having hands is pretty helpful.

Needless to say, I meet any contention that the primary focus of virtually any titan is close combat with deep scorn, even the Khornate Banelord titans have missile racks, multiple heavy guns etc. Their sole "classic" close combat weapon even has a secondary battery of fusion guns on it!

Warhound Titans can't even "mount" close combat weapons, Reaver Titans are designed for long range combat.

Warlords can carry intercontinental ballistic missiles (so can Imperial Guard artillery vehicles actually)

Stupendously long range artillery is a fact of life in BT as well.

Their longest range artillery is under ten thousand metres, Deathstrike missile batteries provided supporting fire to Imperial Forces from IIRC Helsreach Hive on Armageddon...on the other side of the planet.

The basic assault gun has an unboosted range of 16km on a mobile chassis.

Now, something else to chew on. Kinetic weapons. As mentioned, the kinetic energy of a WH40K main tank gun is pegged in one book as 5 megajoules, similar to the muzzle energy of a modern 120mm tank gun.

If you've based that on the recoil force, 40k has significant access to recoil dampening technology. Which makes it fairly impressive that a hypervelocity 120-130mm main gun has such a low recoil.

How well would Warhammer armor fare against fire from, say, the 200mm automatic gun of the Hunchback battlemech, supposedly several generations more advanced than the modern tank gun?

You mean the water pistols ?

How well would it fare against the BT gauss rifle, which has enormously more kinetic energy than WH40K tank rounds, but isn't explosive?

Not only isn't it explosive, its a hollow melon shape. Its like the designers tried to make the worst round possible.

Was I the one who first mentioned Ogryns engaging light vehicles? Curiously enough, no.

No, it was me as far as I recall, and I mentioned them engaging Light battle-tech vehicles.

How does this translate to support for your dumbass "40k fights at 120metre ranges" theory ?

I think the answer promises to be amusing.

[Jedi Master Spock]

Note: Gniops is currently running on semaphore speed internet connection and can barely even load this page, much less post. So I am posting his response for him as a favor. Everything that follows is his post, not mine.

Thank you for passing his post along for him. If it helps, you might e-mail this post straight to him, so he doesn't have to deal with loading the entire page.

Oh for....

So fucking what ? Do you seriously think modern troops take all their kit with them on an operation ?

I think they tend to be based in the same location as their supplies.

My sourcebook could tell me they didn't even have a city called spanec and I don't think it'd make a difference to you.

Answer the question if you can.

What makes you think that ? The Com Guard by all appearances knew exactly where the Clans were landing, given that their entire strategy was predicated on WHERE the Clans landed, and with what forces.

Its difficult to lure someone into a fucking marsh if they land on the other side of the city to the thing.

They were most likely working off a list of probable landing sites and a broad set of contingency plans.

Yeah, I'll go a pull fuck all until you start reciprocating.

"take my word for it " in other words, and you bloody wibble about me quoting stuff you bloody hypocrite.

Please don't say you'd actually go and check a book out of the library simply to look for a single line.

See the above section for my disgust at your double standard of evidence.

Whereas I'm supposed to trust you ? With your established practise of actually making stuff up ?

I don't see any sort of problem with what I've said thanks.

Uhuh, you first asshole.

Yeeeah, you're not getting me are you, read what I said again.

Some random Battle-tech website or something, fuck knows.

I don't think you can exactly complain about it either, given your entire fucking argument is apparently predicated on this level of evidence.

Cursing at me and calling me names isn't going to change the fact that I have provided a half dozen specific sourced and cited quotes about WH40K, linked to material on a half dozen or so online sources (including the Games Workshop website and a cinematic) to back up my claims, while you have provided 2-3 specific quotes to back up your claims. We've both made numerous vague references, but those aren't worth counting.

It will look especially bad in a little while, when I go and post the batch of BT quotes that I dug up. It's going to take a little while longer to write the analysis of what all the quotes mean; however, it's painfully transparent that the estimates based on "melting a half ton" of BT armor are not going to be exceptionally high. It is and remains a reasonable estimate, and I do believe there are a number of matters in regard to which the game mechanics are remarkably illuminating, such as the heat mechanics, which are extremely difficult to compute from the narrative descriptions for a number of reasons.

The cold hard fact is that we're going to be dealing with gigajoules.

I am sorry if you are used to generally lower evidentary standards present on other websites, but don't expect your arguments to be convincing when you claim to have source material on hand, and yet are less willing to provide specific information.

Battlesuit security systems reduce people to ash and bone, and remain completely functional.

The pilot didn't make a damn bit of difference to this, apart from maybe fueling the utterly secondary "fiery" portion of the description, if we should even be being that anal about the wording.

And? All this means is that the battlesuit can remain handle a couple hundred megajoules' thermal energy being spent in a controlled (and planned for) fashion in its interior while undamaged.

Wouldn't matter if there was less than a ton of armour, the suit itself is going to be made of highly resistent and strong materials throughout its construction.

Not necessarily uniformly so, nor necessarily all needing to be melted (e.g., hydraulic fluid, water and oxygen supplies, biological waste and life support, fuel).

If only you'd bothered to even justify B-tech large lasers blasting a half ton of armour. Please tell me you've not been working off some half-assed game mechanic with this.

It is unfortunate that you have pressed me on this issue. It turns out that minimal melting is not a standard description of destruction in non-Stackpole novels, and if anything, novel descriptions tend towards higher quantities of armor destroyed than game mechanics on effective hits, although occasionally (and most likely in Stackpole novels, from what we have discussed) the description matches the mechanics.

What do you think ?

How much taller do you think he'd be in his armoured incidentally ?

From the appearance of Space Marines in armor, the armor should add 10-20 cm to his height. Possibly as much as 30 cm, but probably not more than that.

a "larger" weapon doesn't mean as much as you think it does, have you looked at the various weapon stats ?

Larger weapons than a large laser include autocannon (longer ranged), PPCs (heavier and longer ranged), large missile racks (more damage and sometimes longer ranged). Only the non-rotary autocannon/2 and non-Ultra, non-rotary autocannon/5 cause less damage, and there are no BattleMechs on that list which have one of those without also having a rotary/ultra variant or PPC variant.

Is that right ? I guess that means any other evidence should be disregarded.

The situation doesn't compare remotely, the game mechanics in 40k don't have some retarded equal in the background fiction. i.e. the Parti-kill PPC or SRM pack ranges for B-Tech are as short-arsed in the fluff text as they are in the rules.

Actually, we can determine that 40k ground forces engage at longer ranges by comparison of background for both sides.

Welcome to Battle-tech, contradictory mess that it is. But unfortunately, you are still using game mechanic ranges, I've got fluff text. Guess which I give a shit about ?

You have yet to present any actual evidence for either BT or WH40K ranges beyond vague references and claiming that BT flufftext mirrors the mechanics of the core game.

Game-mechanics in 40k are recognisably not the most accurate depiction of the universe. This isn't the case with battle-tech, particularly if you decide that B-tech games mechancis are the "highest canon" as you repeatedly have.

The mechanics appear to be highly regarded, within the limitations of game mechanics in general and of the various conflicts within the BT game systems (e.g., range conflicts), and many elements of the mechanics are apparently recycled in the fluff to a degree.

Outside of the cities, what makes you think the Imperial forces, (the ones you've fielded that actually use guns mind) are going to be in the same situation as the Clans ?

They aren't going to mindlessly charge into the swamps for example, they might...*gasp* go around!

Since the Marines and Space Wolves are dropping straight into the cities, the Adeptus have inadequate vehicle and artillery support, and the Ogryns are going to get butchered, it's really only the Titans and Imperial Guard that we're wondering about the terrain.

I readily accept that the Titans don't have to go into Devil's Bath, and the Imperial Guard are replacing the Nova Cats, who did not get bogged down due to terrain IIRC.

The 3513 tech book describes Battle armour weaponry as scaled up infantry weaponry, which pretty much nixes this.

Not at all.

Um, thats usually there regardless of what you put in the mech mate.

Very nice, but the arms don't come off when you swap some lasers out, go look at the models.

Go look at tank turrets, and then compare them with the actual basic guns. Battle armor (and ProtoMechs, also) save tonnage on more efficient mounting systems, miniaturization, etc. They have perfectly equivalent weapons.

One would hope so, B-tech lasers destroy themselves if fired for too long.

So do phasers. That fact means nothing about how strong they are.

Battle-tech guns....hello ?

Evidence?

Nor is the "laser rifle" the standard laser infantry weapon. That honor would appear to belong to a device known as the "blazer," which is about the size of a lasgun (7 kg).

bwahahhahahaha

Laughter is no argument.

Why don't you go dig up that quote about them engaging targets appearing on the horizon while you are at it you dishonest bugger.

Why shouldn't they ? If they end up in a scenario which requires close quarters battle, having hands is pretty helpful.

Needless to say, I meet any contention that the primary focus of virtually any titan is close combat with deep scorn, even the Khornate Banelord titans have missile racks, multiple heavy guns etc. Their sole "classic" close combat weapon even has a secondary battery of fusion guns on it!

Warhound Titans can't even "mount" close combat weapons, Reaver Titans are designed for long range combat.

Warlords can carry intercontinental ballistic missiles (so can Imperial Guard artillery vehicles actually)

I expect that something the size of a Titan should be able to engage targets more than a km away.

Presumably thats why you are so anxious to use its game mechanics.

WH40K game mechanical ranges are clearly ridiculously short in the squad-level game. Now cough it up. What's the scale of effective weapons range (for, say, a lascannon) in Epic? You brought it up, I'm genuinely curious.

Ogryns are armed as "standard" with 20mm automatic shotguns! They happen to pretty good at bludgeoning people though. The Monglors and their ilk are the rarety. Ogryns go for close assault.

Even the assault heavy space marines use guns, you'd be hard pressed to find marines without some form of pistol or firearm, and those few that don't are the exception, not the rule. The "classic" image of a space marine is one with a gun, and its what most of them have. They are actually highly mobile shock assault troops, you do realise this don't you ?

Shotguns are close range weapons, generally with an effective range of up to 100m. See, for example, BlackWater[/i]'s page on shotguns.

The classic image of a Space Marine is that of one with a giant pistol. The standard sized Bolter is wielded in much the same manner as a pistol; the only difference is its size. A typical .45 caliber pistol has a maximum effective range of around [url=http://www.military-net.com/education/mpdweapons.html]50 meters. Hitting a man-sized target with a pistol at 100m is considered fairly exceptional.

You understand the context in which these weapons come into play, that the guys with swords (and pistols, and usually high explosive demo-charges, or tank busting directed energy mines) actually operate as part of a team, and physically "take" locations.

Orks have "massive" guns, they use artillery and long range guns all the time, virtually every ork model has a gun! The Orkish Mega-gargant has "one" close combat weapon, and from memory, about a dozen other distinct weapon systems.

The standard Ork Shoota is also a super-heavy pistol. If I don't miss my mark, Orks with Shootas are poorer marksmen than Marines with Bolters.

Their longest range artillery is under ten thousand metres,

Depends on which sources and ranges you use. Under ten thousand meters is using the "basic" level BT mechanics and range brackets. We may note that the same Arrow IV missiles are usable in fighter-to-dropship role on the AeroTech scale, for example, as on BattleMechs, bringing us back to BT's "inconsistent range" issues.

Deathstrike missile batteries provided supporting fire to Imperial Forces from IIRC Helsreach Hive on Armageddon...on the other side of the planet.

The basic assault gun has an unboosted range of 16km on a mobile chassis.

16 km is sufficient range for the scenario in question. In general, ballistic artillery tends to be quite similar across universes given similar muzzle velocities, thanks to shared physics.

Do you have specific quotes for these? Or at least particular sources? Not that I think you're trying to lie to me, but I'm hearing a lot of very vague references.

If you've based that on the recoil force, 40k has significant access to recoil dampening technology. Which makes it fairly impressive that a hypervelocity 120-130mm main gun has such a low recoil.

Traditional recoil dampening does not work by eliminating recoil forces. It works by compensating for them with other forces and by providing specific outlets for that force. For example, the recoil force may compress rubber, or springs, or move liquids, or spin wheels, all of which slow the spread of the waste energy or direct it in harmless ways that do not strain the structure.

The only thing that reduces or eliminates actual recoil forces is venting gas out the back of the gun (as in recoilless rifles) which is a claim I would require specific evidence for. It's very obvious in practice, and the omission of such descriptions can be taken as strong evidence against a gun being recoilless.

You mean the water pistols ?

Given these are supersonic depleted-uranium rounds, "water pistol" is not an appropriate description.

Not only isn't it explosive, its a hollow melon shape. Its like the designers tried to make the worst round possible.

Source for this rather exceptional claim? I should warn you I have seen evidence contradicting this claim.

No, it was me as far as I recall, and I mentioned them engaging Light battle-tech vehicles.

Note the specific description:

There'll be a few scenes of hilarity mind, Ogryns can drag APCs around so its not beyond reason to expect a few lighter Mechs and tanks to get swarmed by nutso barbarians.

If you say Ogryn can drag APCs around, I expect it to have actually happened.

[Cpl Kendall]

You have yet to present any actual evidence for either BT or WH40K ranges beyond vague references and claiming that BT flufftext mirrors the mechanics of the core game.

Jeebus what a collection of shit in this thread. I'v dug this quote on ranges out of The Space Wolf Omnibus pg 701:

Already the huge Earthshaker assualt guns battered at the enemy position, sending monstrous shells smashing into the walls of the distant keep, not even visible through the snowy mist of the Garmite dawn.

pg 707:

Suddenly there was the sound of an explosion. To the left a plume of black smoke arose. Ragnar glanced out of the porthole and saw that one of the tanks had been hit. He had no idea by what.

*snip irrelevant text*

The other Baneblades started blasting away in response, although Ragnar was not sure what they hoped to achieve. No matter how powerful those guns were, they could do little damage to the walls of the keep.

pg 708:

'Look at that,' said Aenar, pointing out of the right porthole. Ragnar glanced over. He could see that a Warlord Titan was bringing it's weapon to bear. The air filled with an enormous humming sound as the Titan's generators peaked at maximum energy, and then it's gun sent a spear of energy lancing at the distant building with a sound like a tunderclap.

The above events all take place at the range implied in the opening quotes.

Edit: I'll take a look through the rest of my books and see what's in there. Just a reminder that the novels are considered to be the "true universe".

[Jedi Master Spock]

You have yet to present any actual evidence for either BT or WH40K ranges beyond vague references and claiming that BT flufftext mirrors the mechanics of the core game.

I'v dug this quote on ranges out of The Space Wolf Omnibus pg 701:

Thanks.

Already the huge Earthshaker assualt guns battered at the enemy position, sending monstrous shells smashing into the walls of the distant keep, not even visible through the snowy mist of the Garmite dawn.

Not even visible through the snowy mist isn't necessarily OTH. Depends a little bit on the mist, really.

Suddenly there was the sound of an explosion. To the left a plume of black smoke arose. Ragnar glanced out of the porthole and saw that one of the tanks had been hit. He had no idea by what.

*snip irrelevant text*

The other Baneblades started blasting away in response, although Ragnar was not sure what they hoped to achieve. No matter how powerful those guns were, they could do little damage to the walls of the keep.

What are the walls of the keep made of?

'Look at that,' said Aenar, pointing out of the right porthole. Ragnar glanced over. He could see that a Warlord Titan was bringing it's weapon to bear. The air filled with an enormous humming sound as the Titan's generators peaked at maximum energy, and then it's gun sent a spear of energy lancing at the distant building with a sound like a tunderclap.

Direct fire, not OTH, although Titans have a more distant horizon than people; if the keep is 50m tall, and the Titan's porthole is 50m off the ground, then the keep crests the horizon at ~56 km separation, and the Titan can see ground-level targets up to ~28 km away, given sufficiently good optics and an Earth-sized planet. (For reference, smaller planets shorten this directly in proportion to radius, so on Mars, a 50m observer has a ~15 km horizon.)

The above events all take place at the range implied in the opening quotes.

Edit: I'll take a look through the rest of my books and see what's in there. Just a reminder that the novels are considered to be the "true universe".

Over or under the fluff in the rulebooks/sourcebooks? I was thinking of going through the WH40K fluff bible again with an eye towards ground combat (mostly paid attention to the space stuff for SW/ST concerns the last time I went through it) but it's a terrible read, and I believe it doesn't have much newer stuff in it.

[Cpl Kendall]

Thanks.

Yeah, my pleasure.

Not even visible through the snowy mist isn't necessarily OTH. Depends a little bit on the mist, really.

Note that at no point did I mention over the horizon, though there are cases in the novels of that. I have to locate them in my collection.

What are the walls of the keep made of?

Rockcrete or similiar likely, it doesn't say. It's important to note that the Keep is actually part of a Hive so it's construction will be solid and likely void sheild reinforced.

Direct fire, not OTH, although Titans have a more distant horizon than people; if the keep is 50m tall, and the Titan's porthole is 50m off the ground, then the keep crests the horizon at ~56 km separation, and the Titan can see ground-level targets up to ~28 km away, given sufficiently good optics and an Earth-sized planet. (For reference, smaller planets shorten this directly in proportion to radius, so on Mars, a 50m observer has a ~15 km horizon.)

Again, please note that I had note claimed OTH for any of this. If you want specific quotes on that you'll have to wait till I sort through the thirty novels on my shelf.

Over or under the fluff in the rulebooks/sourcebooks? I was thinking of going through the WH40K fluff bible again with an eye towards ground combat (mostly paid attention to the space stuff for SW/ST concerns the last time I went through it) but it's a terrible read, and I believe it doesn't have much newer stuff in it.

Over everything. The highest canon, if such a term can be applied to WH40K. The policy is basically that everything fluff related is canon but there are statements from the GW headshead that the novels represent how the universe actually is.

[Cpl Kendall]

Here's another, dealing with the ranges of Space Marine personal weapons:

'It's like a bloody sea,' Sven said with a trace of ironic homour. 'Maybe we can catch some fish for our supper.'

'Iwould not dine on the flesh of anything plucked from these foul waters,' said Lars. 'Nor would I drink of them.'

There was something deeply disquieting to him about this huge underground lake and it's glowing surface. He could not see the far shore from where he stood.

Then suddenly he sensed Hengist move, heard the sound of something whip through the air close by. A moment later, light blazed through the cavern, and there was a roar like thunder as something exploded in the midst of the coming crowd.

Ragnar's Sgt. throws a micro-grenade into an oncoming crowd of nightgangers in the afore mentioned cave.

Note that the Space Wolves are a close-combat Chapter and tend to wait till close range to engage. Still a SM is capable of throwing things quite a distance.

Various quotes from 15 Hours a novel concerning a rookie Guardsman on an Ork infested planet:

"Three hundred and fifty metres!' Vidmar shouted, while Larn could hear the distant popping sound of mortars being fired behind them. "Three hundred metres! On my mark! Fire!"

Guardsman engaging Orks at a range of 300m, which incidently is around the practical range for a rifle in combat.

Taking his place on the step next to Scholar, Larn watched as the other men stared intently into no-mans land, scanning for anything out of place. Until, indicating a shell crater perhaps three hundred metres away from their trench, Davir's wolfish smile became a broad grin of delight.

*snip a page of exposition*

'Quiet.' Davir hissed. 'You are putting me off.' Then exhaling slowly, he pulled the trigger, producing a single sharp crack as the lasgun fired.

"You got him!" Bulaven said, passing the field glasses to Larn with a smile of exultation. "Look, new fish. You see that? He got him.'

Three hundred metres, single round over open sights.

The Soul Drinkers Omnibus passages concerning a Vortex missile strike:

Kelchenko looked up to see the glittering crescent described by the Deathstrike missile as it streaked over the city towards the heart of the battleline.

*snip*

Reinz looked up into the morning sky. It was a drab grey dawn and the trail of fire was clearly picked out against the milky sky, the train of a rocket, arcing up from the east of the city. He followed the trajectory and a practised eye told him the rocket was heading towards the centre of the slums, an area currently contested by the Seleucians.

*snip*

Two explosions within seconds, like punctuation marks in the battle. The force shook down crumbling hovels in the slums and crystal chandeliers in the mansions to the north. The Resolve saw them both from orbit, sudden plumes of destruction amongst the warfare.

The exlosion in the centre of the arena sent a shaft of fire a hundred metres into the air, showering the sorrounding area with cultists and Guardsman's bodies.

*snip*

The second explosion was a bolt of purest blackness that streaked into the heart of the slum district, blooming into a dark sphere that swallowed up the medicae station and three sorrounding blocks of ruined tenements. The silen, hungry void consumed anything it rolled over, and where it's furthest extent reached it left men, buildings, and tanks sliced neatly apart.

*snip*

The vortex it created was a chained pocket of no-space, a miniature black hole, an anomaly of physics that sucked anything it touched into the annihilation of the warp. It even sucked in the morning daylight, casting a premature dusk over Gravenholds slums.

*snip*

An immense sphere had been bitten out of the undercity, extending from the surface down to the temple-city. It was a perfect spherical space, cutting through towers and minarets, it's sides striped with the various layers of Gravenhold it had sliced through. Where there had once been thousands of tons of metal and stone, now there was just a giant echonig space. A shaft of grimey grey light reached down from where the sphere met the surface.

I trust you don't mind that I snipped it for brevity, there's to much info to quote the entire set of pages.

Though it should be noted that even though the Vortex missile is described as opening a black hole, it is actually a temporary warp portal. One of the SM's caught in the blast see's and hears daemons trying to cross into reality during the strike.

[l33telboi]

I don't know how you're supposed to figure out the range for anything except the 300 meter stuff there. And even then the people shooting seem rather happy about scoring a hit with one shot on human sized (I'm presuming) target.

[Cpl Kendall]

I don't know how you're supposed to figure out the range for anything except the 300 meter stuff there. And even then the people shooting seem rather happy about scoring a hit with one shot on human sized (I'm presuming) target.

Your not going to find very much in the universe that is explict I'm afraid, have to go with what we have.

The guy that was excited about killing the gretchin is somewhat of a simpleton, note that he wasn't excstatic about the other 300 metre engagement.

[Jedi Master Spock]

OK, I think I've done enough analysis of the BT stuff to nail it down fairly well given the package of quotes I acquired.

Generally speaking, if the Guard are engaging with their rifle-like weapons at 300m, that's about what we expect. That really is a nice typical "effective range" for rifle-like weapons. Neither WH40K nor BT, in their actual descriptions, are going to fall too far from modern weaponry when it comes to things like humans using rifles/lpistols at what ranges.

Heat

BT mechs run hot. Weapons - big, small, whatever - all overheat if fired too much. Mechs shut down if overheated too much, and substantial amounts of waste heat need to be vented from the drive system, weapons, jump jets, et cetera. We observe this in Close Quarters (230, 238, 331), Star Lord (31,32, especially 127-133, 156-158, 166, 209), Exodus Road (21, 57, 60, 137-138, 190), and End Game (8, 113, 167, 171, 244). Copious quantities of coolant take the place of blood, and mech pilots are exposed to exhausting temperatures - potentially lethal temperatures, in fact - in spite of heavy air conditioning, coolant vests, whatever insulation exists for the cockpit, and in one case a wide open cockpit.

How much waste heat is being produced? Mechs' structure and armor are mainly aluminum, titanium, steel, boron nitride, and carbon nanostructures. The boron nitride might be nanutubes, too, boron nitride is a lot like higher-density diamond and has similar nanostructuring capabilities as carbon.

For a mech like the Warhammer Trane and Duncan pilot in Star Lord, we're looking at roughly seventy tons of matter. The effective heat capacity, between the highly resistant nanofibers (precise thermal behavior of nanostructures is a matter of active study, and depends to a certain degree on the type of nanostructures), the coolant (4-5 J/g*K), and the thermally low-capacity metals (0.5-0.9 J/g*K), is on the general order of a hundred megajoules per degree Celsius (exactly that would be an average of 1.4 J/g*K).

Firing a single PPC in Star Lord is enough to heat the cockpit of a 70 ton war machine noticeably, and two PPCs lethally unless the cockpit hatch is opened. Discomfort? Maybe 30 C. Lethal heating should be higher than 110 C. Sauna competitions reach as high as 140 C, and mech pilots should be acclimated to sudden heat surges. Assuming that the cockpit is no greater than the average temperature of the mech, we arrive at around 10 GJ of waste heat from the second PPC based on the Star Lord incident. This isn't a precise figure (MOE is easily 50%), but it is solid.

The Compendium gives us similar temperature changes for gameplay purposes. In extreme temperature cases, 10 C change is equal to one point change in heat per turn.

For energy weapons, if we assume that one point of heat is equal to one point of damage in terms of raw thermal energy, we arrive at efficiencies of 40-75% for lasers, which is plausible, and 33-50% for PPCs. This is strongly suggested by the mechanics of the optional flamer rule, as well as the novels' descriptions of heat spikes from the impact of thermal weapons as the firing (not present in game mechanics).

Mechanics note: A point of heat or point of thermal damage is then ~1 gigajoule.

Actual effects: Energy weapons

A PPC strike in a front yard across the street from Cassie's house in Close Quarters does two things. It melts the large front window of Cassie's house (probably plate glass) and sets the house across the street instantly on fire thanks to its waste heat. Melting the glass takes something in the neighborhood of about 15 MJ/m^2, which at a radius of 10m would be about 20 gigajoules - assuming the window is absorbing 100% of the energy hitting it.

A medium laser setting nearby men on fire, a large laser accidentally vaporizing one man as it sweeps by and melting another's armor as a proximity effect - Close Quarters shows the sort of collateral thermal effects that are characteristic of multi-gigajoule thermal weapons.

In Close Quarters, we also see the most energetic destruction - blue-hot plasma, white-hot heating, and sometimes molten yellow-hot rivulets of armor. Cherry-red armor remains solid. We also see white-hot metal in Star Lord, and it seems that energy weapons do as much vaporizing as melting when they hit effectively. Molten metal is everywhere, sprayed long distances in Endgame, but the descriptions of blue-hot plasma are absent in the other three novels.

That energy weapons can rock a mech, however, definitely suggest multi-gigajoule yields. E=pc means that a 30 GJ laser bolt only has 100 kgm/s of momentum in and of itself. This is negligible for vehicles massing tens of tons. Therefore, most of the momentum rocking struck mechs is due to expanding gases at the site of impact.

If we have a plume of 10,000 kelvin iron, which will be bluish-white plasma, average velocity is about 2 km/s. On average, maybe half of this is normal to the surface of the target, while about half is in other directions and being cancelled by other parts of the gas. This means that to rock a 100 ton mech by 1 m/s, you need to vaporize something like 100 kilograms of iron and then super-heat it further - about 1 gigajoule in vaporization there. If we add in 400 kg of melting and five degrees' heating on the rest of the mech, we're up over 2 gigajoules for a large laser impact without invoking exotic thermal behavior on the part of BT armor.

Turning a minivan-sized splotch cherry-red is our lowest incident; we have perhaps a couple tons of armor being heated to temperatures below that necessary to melt iron. This would generally be ballparked in hundreds of megajoules, not gigajoules. In general, once we start adding partial vaporization of missing armor, energy estimates go up; they also go up as the result of being able to quantify yields against more conventional targets than magic-wank armor.

Summary: Observed mech-scale large energy weapon effects in general fall within a span of two orders of magnitude, from around 10^8.5 to around 10^10.5 joules.

Mechanical note: If we aim for the middle of this range for PPCs and large lasers, game mechanics suggest the small laser should be one gigajoule.

PPC inhibitor

Star Lord p159 gives us a risk of fusing an entire PPC assembly into one large ferro-titanium slug. The PPC assembly is 7 tons; the actual PPC itself is likely to be a substantial fraction of this. This involves several gigajoules of misfiring energy.

Autocannons

Autocannon shells are supersonic, designed to penetrate armor, have depleted uranium tips, and have some kind of explosive charge set off on or near the target. The description sounds similar to modern tank rounds, except that they fire bursts; for example, 200 kg of modern 120mm cartridges might be an 8-10 shell burst if the cartridges are similar to modern 120mm guns. In comparison with faster gauss rifles, it's clear the explosive component of the shells is important. Note that a modern 120mm gun mount is about 4 tons total, with the actual gun itself taking up slightly under 2 tons. Then you add armor to the turret, IIRC several more tons.

Machine guns

In the game, machine guns do the same damage as light autocannon, only at short range instead of long. In Close Quarters, we see only 2 meters of water acting as complete protection against the bullets, and in Exodus Road, we see them described as mostly useless, but perfect for close-combat.

Gauss rifle

Pure kinetic weapons. Both the regular and heavy versions of the gauss rifle are hypersonic both at launch and at impact (according to numerous references in Endgame, which is the most recent source of those five) which means at least mach five. Gauss rifles have at least twice the muzzle velocity of any conventional bullets (Compendium, which is probably the most authoritative of those five).

Mach 5+ means 1700+ m/s. Conventional modern discarding-sabot rounds have up to 1700 m/s velocity. Seeing as the Compendium illustrates something that looks like a discarding sabot round, and Close Quarters gives the Zeus sniper rifle a Mach 5 (1700 m/s) bullet, it seems as if guns can still shoot bullets that fast, so at least twice the velocity of "any conventional weapon" means 3400+ m/s. 125 kg means "hypersonic" is 180+ MJ, and doubling the velocity of any conventional weapons is 720+ MJ. Star Lord gives them a 10 cm diameter, which gives the gauss rifle round 1.6 kg/cm^2 - meaning the density of kinetic energy per square centimeter on impact is in the general neighborhood of ten times that of a modern discarding-sabot round.

While sending the target rocking encourages higher-end estimates for energy weapons, it encourages lower-end estimates for kinetic weapons. We see mechs lurch on firing and on impact of gauss rifles (Endgame and Star Lord) but we don't see them go flying. A 3400 m/s 125 kg shell has sufficient momentum to move a 70 ton mech at 22 kph, which is very substantial. Proportionally, getting hit by a gauss rifle shell is like getting hit by a linebacker. Mechs may have the proportionate artificial muscle to brace against that, but it's still very substantial.

Mechanics note: This is 48 MJ KE/damage point. This falls close to the geometric mean of the 5 GJ KE/damage point that's the highest figure CBT.com and 35 MJ per gauss shot estimate previously posted on SB.com, which is probably a good sign.

Ranges

I contend that the novels do not treat the game mechanical "maximum" ranges as actual maximums. If they represent anything, it's normal effective ranges under combat conditions, with mobile heavily armored targets and mobile firing platforms that are in turn dodging fire. We see in Star Lord, for example, a PPC hitting ineffectually at about 300 meters (p210); it is not simply the question of hitting, but of hitting in a manner that is not deflected off the armor.

The basic game mechanics give the short ranged missile a long range of 270m in 'Mech combat, and optional "extreme" range of 360m. Star Lord (203) Dawn opens fire with SRMs at 500m, although 200m later in the same fight is "still not a good range." Note that the Shologar (379-380) mounts one SRM-4 pack; this weapon is fired at 25km in Close Quarters.

Also in the arenas of Star Lord, we see a PPC being fired within seconds of starting at opposite sides of the arena (about a kilometer) - long range 540m, optional extreme range 720m, and in another battle, both LRMs (long range 630m, optional extreme range 840m) and a large laser (long range 450m, optional extreme range 600m) are fired as soon as the battle starts.

TAG and NARC systems used by Inner Sphere units have long ranges of 450m and 270m, with optional extreme ranges of 540m and 360m. In Close Quarters, a Raven uses both systems from a range of seven hundred meters to call down artillery from further away; counter-battery fire using LRMs (long range 630m, optional extreme range 840m) is used to engage the substantially-more-distant artillery. How much more distant isn't clear, but it is apparently typical for the Caballeros' artillery to not be able to see their targets.

Hot Drops

The Compendium indicates quite clearly that in BT, mechs are expected to be able to drop from low orbit (320 km), at which point breakaway ablative shields are necessary to protect sensors. This is definitely a hot and fast drop. We also see low-flying drops in Exodus road, with dropships flying very low.

The heat-and-autocannon problem

There is a small problem if we choose to calculate autocannons based on their game-mechanical heat scale. While the muzzle energy of these weapons should be only around an order of magnitude higher than modern tank weapons, e.g., firing a stream of 10 120mm shells, if we assume game mechanical heat corresponds well, we have gigajoules of waste heat from these weapons. Modern ballistic weapons generally are not exceptionally high-heat weapons relative to their muzzle energy.

This is not a problem with the gauss weapons, which have low heat and near-gigajoule muzzle energies; it is not necessarily a problem with light-grade autocannon, which are within the limitations of the game-mechanical system strongly affected by rounding. It is, however, a problem with the class 10 and 20 autocannons.

Nor is it a problem with the novels and fluff; ballistic weapons do not appear to cause significant heat spikes. Nor is it a problem with vehicles other than mechs, which within the game-mechanical system, need not mount heat sinks for ballistic weapons. It is a curiosity, however, which we should consider carefully, and is closely linked to what appears to be an enormous gap between the autocannons (with perhaps 5 megajoules per damage point of muzzle energy) and energy weapons (perhaps 1 gigajoule per damage point of muzzle energy).

Perhaps we are wrong to presume that the autocannon shells are similar to modern tank shells; perhaps the warheads are incredibly effective; perhaps the heat levels assigned to ballistic weapons are primarily an issue of game balance.

The nimble-clumsy problem

Primarily in Close Quarters, we see examples of mechs being very clumsy war machines, incapable of shooting a single exceptionally nimble human - e.g., the Locust p47-52. Also primarily in Close Quarters, we see examples of mechs being extremely nimble - e.g., using a judo-style throw on another mech (p166).

This isn't really a conflict per se, but it does illustrate a large variance, due in part to design and in part to pilot skill, in how maneuverable mechs are.

Game mechanics vs descriptions

Aside from the range issues (which are already highlighted as problematic between conflicting mechanics), the mechanics seem not to be too far from the descriptions. I pointed out how the heat mechanics descriptions match fairly well to the lethal-heating problem described in the novel.

Armor seems very ablative and very conductive; there's a little variation in how much it takes to hurt things. Typical ranges don't seem too far off from what you expect from reading both the RPG and "classic" board game mechanics. Speeds are almost indistinguishable. I feel justified in saying it wasn't a bad place to start looking regardless of where you chose to put the actual game in the canon hierarchy and how literally you chose to take it.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I don't know how you're supposed to figure out the range for anything except the 300 meter stuff there. And even then the people shooting seem rather happy about scoring a hit with one shot on human sized (I'm presuming) target.

Your not going to find very much in the universe that is explict I'm afraid, have to go with what we have.

The guy that was excited about killing the gretchin is somewhat of a simpleton, note that he wasn't excstatic about the other 300 metre engagement.

Perhaps there's a reason he wasn't as impressed. Aside from him being stupid, or a green recruit. Opening fire with a bunch of weapons and firing indiscriminately into a large number of enemies doesn't require as much accuracy as dropping one target with one shot.

I'll go back four centuries for a good example, since now we expect professional soldiers to be trained marksmen using accurate weapons. Muskets were dangerous in volleys at 100m against tight clusters of people, but you'd be lucky to hit a single man with a single shot at the same range. You expect the musket ball to scatter a couple meters off-target at that range.