Phaser/warp power
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Getting back on a more related track. I just thought of something to calculate warp core power with. In several episodes, like "Contagion" [TNG, Season 2], "The Jem'Hadar" [DS9, Season 2], and the movie ST:Generations we have warp core breeches that appear to vaporize the stardrives of Galaxy class starships (in two of those cases the saucer sections are at least partially vaporized and signficantly melted, as well as propelled away at hundreds of meters a second).
What if we calculated the minimum requirements based on these core breeches since the amount of antimatter involved is likely what is in the warp cores, not the entire ships' stores in the pods. It would certainly go along ways towards confirming that the amounts of reactants is close to the power statements in episodes such as "True Q" or "Revulsion" .
To start with, there are some good statements about the warp core breech that destroys the U.S.S Yamato in "Contagion". As it uses information from a fairly extensive investigation conducted by the expert senior engineering staff of the Yamato's sistership, the Enterprise-D. Because it is well described and characterized as the result of catastrophic interaction of matter and antimatter in the core, it makes for the best of all the examples since other than the Iconian probe's virus program, the breech is simply the result of the failure of the magnetic containment system, and not a collision or extensive battle damage.
The vaporization of the stardrive is seen in these images here (remember to cut and paste the URLs):
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion023.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion024.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion026.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion029.jpg
Note the bright white flash (no "gasoline bomb" explosion FX here) and the lack of debris from the stardrive while the saucer section is propelled away and is at least partially melted and vaporized.
Here the following dialog occurs during Geordi's presenation on the engineering team's analysis of the warp core breech:
(Geordi is doing a presentation at the wall monitor, using a schematic of the Yamato)
LAFORGE: Sensor recordings reveal that what we witnessed was an uncontrolled and catastrophic matter-antimatter mix. The magnetic seals between the chambers collapsed and
PICARD: Wait. Wait. That's not possible.
LAFORGE: Yes, sir, it is, but a highly improbable series of events has to take place for such a result to occur.
PICARD: Explain.
LAFORGE: Okay. In the event of a breach of seal integrity there's an emergency release system which dumps the antimatter.
DATA: Apparently such a dump began, was then halted, and the containment seals were dropped. There was still sufficient antimatter present to lead to an explosion.
PICARD: And so there is no evidence that a weapon was used?
DATA: No, sir. None.
LAFORGE: However it happened, the Yamato did it to herself.
PICARD: Theorise. What could have caused such a catastrophic malfunction?
LAFORGE: I think Captain Varley may have been right. There may be a design flaw.
RIKER: In a Galaxy Class starship?
LAFORGE: Yes, sir. It's the most sophisticated piece of machinery ever built. Something could have been overlooked.
PICARD: Knowing where the flaw is located, can you isolate the problem and solve it?
LAFORGE: We're already working on it, sir.
PICARD: Pull any personnel you can use.
(The men leave)
TROI: If we have established that the Romulans were not responsible for the destruction of the Yamato, would it not be prudent to withdraw?
PICARD: If it is a design flaw, we're better to stay where we are and give Geordi time to work on it. Or what happened to the Yamato could happen to us.
At least some of the antimatter was dumped before the Iconian virus program halted the procedure, so the amount left in the core chamber was still of a sufficent amount to vaporize most of the stardrive section, but was not the amount that the ship would normally have under those circumstances.
We also have to bear in mind that any calculations only take into account the amount of energy to just vaporize the stardrive hull, and no more. There clearly was an excess amount beyond that as indicated by the expanding blast wave and the melting/vaporizing saucer section.
The following is a closeup of the highlighted section of the warp core involved in the failure (again cut and paste):
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion054.jpg
So how much energy would it take to vaporize the Yamato's stardrive?
As we know little about the physical properties of the tritainium, duranium, and nitrium alloys used in the construction of Federation starships, other than that they are generally much stronger, possibly denser, and have higher boiling/vapor points. I will chose instead to use good old fashioned iron. We know from the volumetrics data collected here, that the E-D's stardrive likely weighs in at 2.2 million metric tons. Iron has the following characteristics:
Density: (near r.t.) 7.874 g·cm−3
Heat Capacity: 447 J/kg·K
Energy for vaporisation of 1 kg of iron: 7.6 megajoules
Heat of fusion: 13.81 kJ·mol−1
Heat of vaporization: 340 kJ·mol−1
Specific heat capacity: (25 °C) 25.10 J·mol−1·K−1
Some assumptions: That the starting temperature for the Yamato's hull is the same as space, around 200 kelvin. That would require 1,811 K for melting and a boiling point of 3,134 K. Now there are factors that would effect this, but without more information on the Yamato's state beforehead, this will bias the results towards a higher energy requirement, though this is probably not too much more than would be expected given that the ship in general cannot be so much higher in temperature than space itself that say, humans or other lifeforms with similar requirements cannot live inside her!
At any rate, the stardrive section would be some 22 billion kg. 2.2e9 kg times 7.6 megajoules (the energy needed to vaporize 1 kg to the vapor point) = 16,720,000,000 MJ, or 16,720,000 TJ. Given the assumptions and cavets above, we may conclude that at minium 3.98 gigatons is required to vaporize a Galaxy class starship's stardrive section. Assuming again perfect annihilation of matter and antimatter, it would take roughly 93 kilograms of antimatter to do the job. Likely it took more than this as perfect conversion of antimatter would be near impossible. We also do not know if all the antimatter in the Yamato core even had time to come into contact with matter when the explosion occured.
Conclusions:
Minimum vaporization energies for GCS stardrive section: 3.98 gigatons
mimimum amount of antimatter in the warp core: 93 kilograms
Any thoughts? This is amazingly close to the amount of 3 gigatons of power Data states is being generated in the E-D's warp core in "True Q".
-Mike
What if we calculated the minimum requirements based on these core breeches since the amount of antimatter involved is likely what is in the warp cores, not the entire ships' stores in the pods. It would certainly go along ways towards confirming that the amounts of reactants is close to the power statements in episodes such as "True Q" or "Revulsion" .
To start with, there are some good statements about the warp core breech that destroys the U.S.S Yamato in "Contagion". As it uses information from a fairly extensive investigation conducted by the expert senior engineering staff of the Yamato's sistership, the Enterprise-D. Because it is well described and characterized as the result of catastrophic interaction of matter and antimatter in the core, it makes for the best of all the examples since other than the Iconian probe's virus program, the breech is simply the result of the failure of the magnetic containment system, and not a collision or extensive battle damage.
The vaporization of the stardrive is seen in these images here (remember to cut and paste the URLs):
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion023.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion024.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion026.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion029.jpg
Note the bright white flash (no "gasoline bomb" explosion FX here) and the lack of debris from the stardrive while the saucer section is propelled away and is at least partially melted and vaporized.
Here the following dialog occurs during Geordi's presenation on the engineering team's analysis of the warp core breech:
(Geordi is doing a presentation at the wall monitor, using a schematic of the Yamato)
LAFORGE: Sensor recordings reveal that what we witnessed was an uncontrolled and catastrophic matter-antimatter mix. The magnetic seals between the chambers collapsed and
PICARD: Wait. Wait. That's not possible.
LAFORGE: Yes, sir, it is, but a highly improbable series of events has to take place for such a result to occur.
PICARD: Explain.
LAFORGE: Okay. In the event of a breach of seal integrity there's an emergency release system which dumps the antimatter.
DATA: Apparently such a dump began, was then halted, and the containment seals were dropped. There was still sufficient antimatter present to lead to an explosion.
PICARD: And so there is no evidence that a weapon was used?
DATA: No, sir. None.
LAFORGE: However it happened, the Yamato did it to herself.
PICARD: Theorise. What could have caused such a catastrophic malfunction?
LAFORGE: I think Captain Varley may have been right. There may be a design flaw.
RIKER: In a Galaxy Class starship?
LAFORGE: Yes, sir. It's the most sophisticated piece of machinery ever built. Something could have been overlooked.
PICARD: Knowing where the flaw is located, can you isolate the problem and solve it?
LAFORGE: We're already working on it, sir.
PICARD: Pull any personnel you can use.
(The men leave)
TROI: If we have established that the Romulans were not responsible for the destruction of the Yamato, would it not be prudent to withdraw?
PICARD: If it is a design flaw, we're better to stay where we are and give Geordi time to work on it. Or what happened to the Yamato could happen to us.
At least some of the antimatter was dumped before the Iconian virus program halted the procedure, so the amount left in the core chamber was still of a sufficent amount to vaporize most of the stardrive section, but was not the amount that the ship would normally have under those circumstances.
We also have to bear in mind that any calculations only take into account the amount of energy to just vaporize the stardrive hull, and no more. There clearly was an excess amount beyond that as indicated by the expanding blast wave and the melting/vaporizing saucer section.
The following is a closeup of the highlighted section of the warp core involved in the failure (again cut and paste):
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ion054.jpg
So how much energy would it take to vaporize the Yamato's stardrive?
As we know little about the physical properties of the tritainium, duranium, and nitrium alloys used in the construction of Federation starships, other than that they are generally much stronger, possibly denser, and have higher boiling/vapor points. I will chose instead to use good old fashioned iron. We know from the volumetrics data collected here, that the E-D's stardrive likely weighs in at 2.2 million metric tons. Iron has the following characteristics:
Density: (near r.t.) 7.874 g·cm−3
Heat Capacity: 447 J/kg·K
Energy for vaporisation of 1 kg of iron: 7.6 megajoules
Heat of fusion: 13.81 kJ·mol−1
Heat of vaporization: 340 kJ·mol−1
Specific heat capacity: (25 °C) 25.10 J·mol−1·K−1
Some assumptions: That the starting temperature for the Yamato's hull is the same as space, around 200 kelvin. That would require 1,811 K for melting and a boiling point of 3,134 K. Now there are factors that would effect this, but without more information on the Yamato's state beforehead, this will bias the results towards a higher energy requirement, though this is probably not too much more than would be expected given that the ship in general cannot be so much higher in temperature than space itself that say, humans or other lifeforms with similar requirements cannot live inside her!
At any rate, the stardrive section would be some 22 billion kg. 2.2e9 kg times 7.6 megajoules (the energy needed to vaporize 1 kg to the vapor point) = 16,720,000,000 MJ, or 16,720,000 TJ. Given the assumptions and cavets above, we may conclude that at minium 3.98 gigatons is required to vaporize a Galaxy class starship's stardrive section. Assuming again perfect annihilation of matter and antimatter, it would take roughly 93 kilograms of antimatter to do the job. Likely it took more than this as perfect conversion of antimatter would be near impossible. We also do not know if all the antimatter in the Yamato core even had time to come into contact with matter when the explosion occured.
Conclusions:
Minimum vaporization energies for GCS stardrive section: 3.98 gigatons
mimimum amount of antimatter in the warp core: 93 kilograms
Any thoughts? This is amazingly close to the amount of 3 gigatons of power Data states is being generated in the E-D's warp core in "True Q".
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yes, we can see it that way. However, we know it's an immuable rule, as even most fragile ships can escape the shredding.Mike DiCenso wrote:Mike DiCenso wrote: Ad for the rest of it. Once you're inside, the thing's subspace domain appears to be a fairly benign enviroment. It's being on the outside and drawn into it that is apparently fatal, and the gravitational sheer forces are apparently what the 30 million TJs of subspace energy are being used to describe in much the same way as modern science uses joules, not wattage to describe kinetic energy.
-MikeNo, the Ares IV's "survival" was a fluke as many other ships (and possibly natural objects as well) were clearly shredded to bits smaller than a square meter in side.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Obviously not, since a most primitive ship with noticeably no defenses at all survived, with a man inside.
Yes well, it just couldn't be more vague you know. :)Subspace energy as Janeway stated.Mr. Oragahn wrote: We're still stuck with the fact that we have absolutely no idea what this energy figure quantifies exactly.
That whole bubble was supposed to be an extension of subspace.
Subspace as opposed to normal space. For example, anyone living in subspace and subspace being the main universe would consider energies from normal space, notably energies pouring into subspace, as "normal space energy".
It doesn't get us anywhere.
And yet in all this time, the satellite was rather in good shape compared to the rest. The difference, actually, could be due to the possible lack of shields on this primitive ship. The more you'd try to resist it, the higher the damage would be.Not "very random" in it's destructive abilities as the poor Ares IV and it's one lone occupant were an extreme outlier example of a surviving ship and crew when encountering the Graviton ellipse.Mr. Oragahn wrote:It could be the pocket as a whole, but considering that it's very random in its destructive abilities and fairly benign, as you say, it could be spread over that whole huge volume.
We still don't know what those joules are about.
If you want to go down that route, what was actually spoken sounds a thousand times more like "billion" than "million".Your powers of observation are weak, old man. I chose a transcript of what was actually spoken, not a script of what they were supposed to speak.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Now, since I noticed you picked the script as evidence that the asian guy said millions and not billions, it seems that the script for the episode where Data provides his 12.75 thingowatt figure ended with "per second".
-Mike
But what about the actor's accent? Does he have any?
What about the idea that he may have been wrong? Would they shoot the whole scene again just because he made his "m" too much like a "b", or actually thought or remembered it was billion when he was about to utter those lines?
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Arguably, I'm not that informed on the canonical status of genuine scripts.Roondar wrote:Bah.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Now, since I noticed you picked the script as evidence that the asian guy said millions and not billions, it seems that the script for the episode where Data provides his 12.75 thingowatt figure ended with "per second".
I had expected you to be above that sort of 'debating'.
We all know the script is not canon.
Some fans use them when some info is lacking, some don't. For all I can see, the amount of fans relying on scripts from time to time has been higher than those openly refusing them.
Hey, easy. I wasn't arguing like a hard suit here, just raising some issue.Mike DiCenso wrote:Only used for purposes of knowing intent, which, for some odd reason, you fail to grasp, either intentionally or otherwise. It is you that is twisting things around to try and justify Oraghan's flimsy attempt to solely use the shooting script as his power estimate basis. All known transcripts of "True Q", for example, have the word "second" is cut off, and very nearly everyone agrees, regardless that "second" cut off by the klaxon. So you're both attempting to compare an apples and oranges situation where one situation is clearly defined by both transcripts as well as people listening to one where some people (currently a majority in one thread) hear one thing and others hear another, and the transcripts all agree with one (currently minority) side, but not the other.
Now, that "per second" thing is from a shooting script? Or is it the "million" bit?
At least, the million bit is present in the subtitles of a DVD. Now does this mean the transfer from shooting script to subtitles has been perfect? I've seen original subtitles differ from what actors would say on screen.
While a shooting script is clearly reliable to know the intent of writers, a transcript is nothing of that. It's just a fan interpretation.
Now, in Stargate, there are those complete visual companions, which I think hold the scripts of all seasons. Isn't there any equivalent and official Paramount material?
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From the shooting script, which is only used as an indicator for the intent, and nothing more. I have not now, nor even stated the writer's intent to be canon.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Hey, easy. I wasn't arguing like a hard suit here, just raising some issue.
Now, that "per second" thing is from a shooting script? Or is it the "million" bit?
That largely depends the quality of the transfer. If the subtitles are taken straight off the script, it will differ. But in accurate versions, teh subtitlers will take into account differences, like the klaxon alarm cutting Data off.Mr. Oragahn wrote: At least, the million bit is present in the subtitles of a DVD. Now does this mean the transfer from shooting script to subtitles has been perfect? I've seen original subtitles differ from what actors would say on screen.
While a shooting script is clearly reliable to know the intent of writers, a transcript is nothing of that. It's just a fan interpretation.
Likewise, a fan transcript may have errors in it, but those are usually pretty easy to spot. In the case of both "True Q" and "Revulsion", they both agree on the klaxon issue, and the "millions" over "billion".
For a while Paramount was doing that, but I don't think they ever released all the scripts, just select ones.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Now, in Stargate, there are those complete visual companions, which I think hold the scripts of all seasons. Isn't there any equivalent and official Paramount material?
-Mike
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Mike DiCenso wrote:Mike DiCenso wrote: Ad for the rest of it. Once you're inside, the thing's subspace domain appears to be a fairly benign enviroment. It's being on the outside and drawn into it that is apparently fatal, and the gravitational sheer forces are apparently what the 30 million TJs of subspace energy are being used to describe in much the same way as modern science uses joules, not wattage to describe kinetic energy.
-MikeNo, the Ares IV's "survival" was a fluke as many other ships (and possibly natural objects as well) were clearly shredded to bits smaller than a square meter in size.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Obviously not, since a most primitive ship with noticeably no defenses at all survived, with a man inside.
Perhaps, but only in the rarest or rare of circumstances as evidenced by the fact that the Ares IV was the only thing intact. Like I said, the analogy of a paper airplane surviving a tornado decribes the Ares IV situation. Does a tornado have less power because the paper plane survived? No. Does it mean that houses torn apart by the tornado are weak? No, not necessarily.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, we can see it that way. However, we know it's an immuable rule, as even most fragile ships can escape the shredding.
Subspace energy as Janeway stated.Mr. Oragahn wrote: We're still stuck with the fact that we have absolutely no idea what this energy figure quantifies exactly.
But it was a significant amount, and if it is a measure of gravitic energy, it would explain the comments about hull plating being ripped off.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes well, it just couldn't be more vague you know. :)
That whole bubble was supposed to be an extension of subspace.
Subspace as opposed to normal space. For example, anyone living in subspace and subspace being the main universe would consider energies from normal space, notably energies pouring into subspace, as "normal space energy".
It doesn't get us anywhere.
Not "very random" in it's destructive abilities as the poor Ares IV and it's one lone occupant were an extreme outlier example of a surviving ship and crew when encountering the Graviton ellipse.Mr. Oragahn wrote:It could be the pocket as a whole, but considering that it's very random in its destructive abilities and fairly benign, as you say, it could be spread over that whole huge volume.
As I suggested before, gravitic energy.Mr. Oragahn wrote:And yet in all this time, the satellite was rather in good shape compared to the rest. The difference, actually, could be due to the possible lack of shields on this primitive ship. The more you'd try to resist it, the higher the damage would be.
We still don't know what those joules are about.
Your powers of observation are weak, old man. I chose a transcript of what was actually spoken, not a script of what they were supposed to speak.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Now, since I noticed you picked the script as evidence that the asian guy said millions and not billions, it seems that the script for the episode where Data provides his 12.75 thingowatt figure ended with "per second".
-Mike
To you and some other people, yes. But to myself and others it's an "m", and Paramount offically says it's an "m" with their subtitle transcripts.Mr. Oragahn wrote:If you want to go down that route, what was actually spoken sounds a thousand times more like "billion" than "million".
But what about the actor's accent? Does he have any?
What about the idea that he may have been wrong? Would they shoot the whole scene again just because he made his "m" too much like a "b", or actually thought or remembered it was billion when he was about to utter those lines?
-Mike
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Altough I do think my point stands, I feel the need to appologise for the somewhat harsh delivery.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Arguably, I'm not that informed on the canonical status of genuine scripts.Roondar wrote:Bah.Mr. Oragahn wrote: Now, since I noticed you picked the script as evidence that the asian guy said millions and not billions, it seems that the script for the episode where Data provides his 12.75 thingowatt figure ended with "per second".
I had expected you to be above that sort of 'debating'.
We all know the script is not canon.
Some fans use them when some info is lacking, some don't. For all I can see, the amount of fans relying on scripts from time to time has been higher than those openly refusing them.
Yesterday was not my day, so I was a tad less friendly than usual.
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Yes, as the possibility that the ship was small, and lightweight. A heavier ship would have to cope with larger stress over her whole structure if one bit was pulled apart from the rest.Mike DiCenso wrote: Perhaps, but only in the rarest or rare of circumstances as evidenced by the fact that the Ares IV was the only thing intact. Like I said, the analogy of a paper airplane surviving a tornado decribes the Ares IV situation. Does a tornado have less power because the paper plane survived? No. Does it mean that houses torn apart by the tornado are weak? No, not necessarily.
But still. If a craft of that size can clearly survive through that, if a shuttle can easily get into that stuff, it proves that all those ships which were destroyed had their crews try to fight against the anomaly with greater forces, only to loose badly.
How do you relate subspace energy to gravitic energy, how do you define gravitic energy and then how do you use it for calculations?Subspace energy as Janeway stated.
+
But it was a significant amount, and if it is a measure of gravitic energy, it would explain the comments about hull plating being ripped off.
+
As I suggested before, gravitic energy.
A subtitle is inferior to the words formulated by the actor.To you and some other people, yes. But to myself and others it's an "m", and Paramount offically says it's an "m" with their subtitle transcripts.
-Mike
Now, considering that we can't get opposed parties to agree on what's said, then this part is better left out.
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Mike DiCenso wrote: Perhaps, but only in the rarest or rare of circumstances as evidenced by the fact that the Ares IV was the only thing intact. Like I said, the analogy of a paper airplane surviving a tornado decribes the Ares IV situation. Does a tornado have less power because the paper plane survived? No. Does it mean that houses torn apart by the tornado are weak? No, not necessarily.
Or the Ares IV entered into the ellipse in a way that saved it from suffering damage, like the analogous paper plane might slip into the tornado's cyclonic winds in such a way that saves it from being damaged.Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, as the possibility that the ship was small, and lightweight. A heavier ship would have to cope with larger stress over her whole structure if one bit was pulled apart from the rest.
But still. If a craft of that size can clearly survive through that, if a shuttle can easily get into that stuff, it proves that all those ships which were destroyed had their crews try to fight against the anomaly with greater forces, only to loose badly.
If by "shuttle", you mean the Delta Flyer, remember that craft had to be special modified for the task.
Mike DiCenso wrote:Subspace energy as Janeway stated.
+
But it was a significant amount, and if it is a measure of gravitic energy, it would explain the comments about hull plating being ripped off.
+
As I suggested before, gravitic energy.
What is the phenomena's name again? Graviton ellipse? Given the effects that the ellipse had on other, less fortunate vessels, and was stated that it would have on Voyager before the crew enacted Seven's Borg modfications, it follows well in-line with the overall energy of the thing.Mr. Oragahn wrote: How do you relate subspace energy to gravitic energy, how do you define gravitic energy and then how do you use it for calculations?
Mike DiCenso wrote:To you and some other people, yes. But to myself and others it's an "m", and Paramount offically says it's an "m" with their subtitle transcripts.
-Mike
It's the lack of agreement that made me default to the transcripts, and choose a lower number, even though from a Versus standpoint, it would be more advantageous to go with billions of gigawatts.Mr. Oragahn wrote: A subtitle is inferior to the words formulated by the actor.Now, considering that we can't get opposed parties to agree on what's said, then this part is better left out.
-Mike