Phaser/warp power

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Mike DiCenso
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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:05 am

l33telboi wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:I think that Mr. Oragahn is misremembering the episodes again. In "Q Who?" [TNG, Season 2], the E-D does blast out several large craters from the Borg cubeship. There are some calcs done of that by Graham Kennedy on his DITL, but make use of the TNG TM physical properties for tritainium, and screencap where the Borg ship and the damage done to it look smaller than later shots show it to be. All-in-all, he estimated 6.8 x 10^16 joules (68,000 terawatts) for phaser firepower in that instance.
-Mike
I was under the impression that he was talking about Best of Both Worlds where the Enterprise uses it's entire power-generation capability to shoot a beam of some sort from the deflector at a Borg Cube.
He is.. and isn't. There is no where in BoBW where the deflector dish weapon gets through the Borg shields (they'd been adapted beforehand when they assimilated Picard's knowledge of the weapon), and damages the ship, and so no calculations are possible beyond what you can derive from known dialog statements about how much the ship's warp core can generate. So at absolute minimum, the E-D hit the cube with 7.14 kilotons of energy over 30 seconds (assumes warp core only generates a single terawatt as per the questionable "The Daupin" statements), and at the extreme maximum it hit with 91 gigatons (assumes "True Q"'s 12.75 million terawatts is the max power output)!
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:23 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Whatever happened to that Cube, where are the calcs?
Nothing happened to the cube as a result of the deflector weapon because the Borg had adapted to it already thanks to the knowledge stolen from Picard.

There are no calcs possible as a result of any damage actually done. We might estimate from what they had hoped would happen (more than 73% of the Borg ship needed to be destroyed to render it inoperable and unable to regenerate). The other way, as I've pointed out in another post is to use the various warp core power quotes and assume that the deflector can make use of nearly all or all of the power possible. The interesting thing about the BoBW use of the deflector weapon is that it did stress out the warp core like almost nothing we've seen before or since for the E-D, suggesting that any power quote you did pick, like the one from "True Q", it would probably be too low since even the generation of 12.75 billion gigawatts was not enough to stress the core that way.
-Mike

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:44 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Right again. So that ship generates gigatons per second. So how can it be that they can't generate more than terawatts for the communication array (post rationalization - Riker never mentions that it's related to the comm array at all)?
l33telboi wrote: Well, you want the out-of-universe reason? Because writers probably had somewhat varied views on how powerful the ship was supposed to be. Or then they probably didn't even know just what a terawatt was. In-universe reasoning I can't comment on because I've never seen the episode. But considering that even the NX-01 could generate power beyond that range I'd find it strange to say that the Ent-D is worse.
Actually, it's even more interesting because the NX-01 in "Silent Enemy" is generating 10 terawatts from her impulse engines alone as they were replicating the earlier alien sabotage overload by directly powering the phase cannons from there rather than the warp reactor.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:02 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote: 1. Well, as fas as I'm concerned, I'd go for the middle ground. I prefer to hit in the averages than pick a group of outliers.

2. Yes, you can pick some wires, but each material has a tolerance. I try to remember the video, but I can't recall seeing her plunging her hand into a shielded conduit full of white plasma or whatever those conduits use to transfer energy. The insulation isn't terribly relevant if the system that transfers energy has almost zero leak, zero radiation. Because there's just no way some skin or grey nylon butt hugging suit can protect from gigatons per second, even if she wore superconducting dresses and isolated high heels. :)
Here's the episode dialog:

Seven : 'The optical assembly is properly aligned. I am ready to access the main power supply.'
Kim : 'After you.'
[They climb down to a lower level. Seven opens a panel and begins to reach inside. Kim pulls her back hurriedly.]
Kim : 'Wait! What are you doing, there are five million gigawatts running through there!'
Seven : 'The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it.'


Seven is specifically refering to the arm's exoskeleton, not her suit or anything else. Of course Kim has to remind her that she's not a full Borg drone anymore, and she needs to be more careful.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: 3. As for the Cube, just damn. That means I'll have to dig.
I don't know what you can expect to find. The only time the E-D damages a Borg cube the way that you describe is in "Q Who?", not BoBW, and they used the phasers to do that, not the deflector dish weapon.
-Mike

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Post by l33telboi » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:27 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Seven : 'The optical assembly is properly aligned. I am ready to access the main power supply.'
Kim : 'After you.'
[They climb down to a lower level. Seven opens a panel and begins to reach inside. Kim pulls her back hurriedly.]
Kim : 'Wait! What are you doing, there are five million gigawatts running through there!'
Seven : 'The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it.'
Still billion I'm afraid. ;)

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:19 am

l33telboi wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Seven : 'The optical assembly is properly aligned. I am ready to access the main power supply.'
Kim : 'After you.'
[They climb down to a lower level. Seven opens a panel and begins to reach inside. Kim pulls her back hurriedly.]
Kim : 'Wait! What are you doing, there are five million gigawatts running through there!'
Seven : 'The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it.'
Still billion I'm afraid. ;)
Sorry, I checked with Chakoteya.net's transcript, and they disagree with that. It is millions of gigawatts, not billions. As advantageous as it might be to go with the error, I won't go down the road that certain pro-Wars fanatics have gone by perpetuating a mistake just because it gives them an edge.
-Mike

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:18 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Whatever happened to that Cube, where are the calcs?
Nothing happened to the cube as a result of the deflector weapon because the Borg had adapted to it already thanks to the knowledge stolen from Picard.

There are no calcs possible as a result of any damage actually done. We might estimate from what they had hoped would happen (more than 73% of the Borg ship needed to be destroyed to render it inoperable and unable to regenerate). The other way, as I've pointed out in another post is to use the various warp core power quotes and assume that the deflector can make use of nearly all or all of the power possible. The interesting thing about the BoBW use of the deflector weapon is that it did stress out the warp core like almost nothing we've seen before or since for the E-D, suggesting that any power quote you did pick, like the one from "True Q", it would probably be too low since even the generation of 12.75 billion gigawatts was not enough to stress the core that way.
-Mike
Well, if it's not the Cube, it's something else, because I certainly remember, maybe erroneously, a calculation based on a beam fired from that dish leading to some gigaton figure, and I'd even say that I saw it here first, not at SBC.
Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote:Right again. So that ship generates gigatons per second. So how can it be that they can't generate more than terawatts for the communication array (post rationalization - Riker never mentions that it's related to the comm array at all)?
l33telboi wrote: Well, you want the out-of-universe reason? Because writers probably had somewhat varied views on how powerful the ship was supposed to be. Or then they probably didn't even know just what a terawatt was. In-universe reasoning I can't comment on because I've never seen the episode. But considering that even the NX-01 could generate power beyond that range I'd find it strange to say that the Ent-D is worse.
Actually, it's even more interesting because the NX-01 in "Silent Enemy" is generating 10 terawatts from her impulse engines alone as they were replicating the earlier alien sabotage overload by directly powering the phase cannons from there rather than the warp reactor.
-Mike
Maybe could it be that the comm system on the E-D is solely powered by an independant fusion reactor?
Mike DiCenso wrote:
Mr. Oragahn wrote: 1. Well, as fas as I'm concerned, I'd go for the middle ground. I prefer to hit in the averages than pick a group of outliers.

2. Yes, you can pick some wires, but each material has a tolerance. I try to remember the video, but I can't recall seeing her plunging her hand into a shielded conduit full of white plasma or whatever those conduits use to transfer energy. The insulation isn't terribly relevant if the system that transfers energy has almost zero leak, zero radiation. Because there's just no way some skin or grey nylon butt hugging suit can protect from gigatons per second, even if she wore superconducting dresses and isolated high heels. :)
Here's the episode dialog:

Seven : 'The optical assembly is properly aligned. I am ready to access the main power supply.'
Kim : 'After you.'
[They climb down to a lower level. Seven opens a panel and begins to reach inside. Kim pulls her back hurriedly.]
Kim : 'Wait! What are you doing, there are five million gigawatts running through there!'
Seven : 'The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it.'


Seven is specifically refering to the arm's exoskeleton, not her suit or anything else. Of course Kim has to remind her that she's not a full Borg drone anymore, and she needs to be more careful.
Thanks.
But this doesn't answer much regarding the sense of all that. Note that the use of "exoskeleton" is even more puzzling here. It's like she said my power armour can withstand that stuff... but then you ask the lady if she's on crack, cuz there's no power armour to be seen.
If anything, I'd have expected a line about synthskin or something relative to a reinforced epidermis or so. Or endoskeleton.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:19 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
l33telboi wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Seven : 'The optical assembly is properly aligned. I am ready to access the main power supply.'
Kim : 'After you.'
[They climb down to a lower level. Seven opens a panel and begins to reach inside. Kim pulls her back hurriedly.]
Kim : 'Wait! What are you doing, there are five million gigawatts running through there!'
Seven : 'The exoskeleton on this limb can withstand it.'
Still billion I'm afraid. ;)
Sorry, I checked with Chakoteya.net's transcript, and they disagree with that. It is millions of gigawatts, not billions. As advantageous as it might be to go with the error, I won't go down the road that certain pro-Wars fanatics have gone by perpetuating a mistake just because it gives them an edge.
-Mike
On the other hand, I remember grabbing the sequence in question (can't find where it is) and it sounds more like a B than a M. But at the same time, are those officially sourced scripts, or transcriptions by fans?

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:22 am

Another possible indicator of GCS firepower can be found in TNG's "A Matter of Time", where the E-D attempts to remove a thick layer of volcanic dust from Earth-like planet Penthara IV's atmosphere. The dust was such a large amount that it was effectively blocking all sunlight around the entire planet.

The E-D attempts to remove the dust using her ventral saucer phasers, but at the risk that, if the variance in the phaser's power output is off by more than 60 gigawatts, a chain-reaction will occur that will completely burn of the Pentharan atmosphere! Suffice to say, the process is sucessful, and only the volcanic dust is burned off.

A long time ago, I once calculated under some conservative assumptions that the amount of energy generated by the burn-off attempt was conservatively in the range of 183 gigatons over 11 seconds. This assumed that the amount of dust in the Pentharan atmosphere was only equal to the moderately large explosive volcanic eruptions of Krakatoa in 1883, which blasted more than 10 cubic kilometers of dust into the Earth's atmosphere.

While Krakatoa certainly had signficant effects on Earth's gobal climate, some lasting for a number of years after the event, it did not do so (thankfully) to anything like the effect that the Penthara IV volcanoes did in effectively blocking all sunlight from reaching the surface of the planet, and so 183 gigatons is likely a highly conservative estimate.

It's been a while. Anyone want to take a crack at assessing the Penthara IV event?
-Mike

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:32 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Another possible indicator of GCS firepower can be found in TNG's "A Matter of Time", where the E-D attempts to remove a thick layer of volcanic dust from Earth-like planet Penthara IV's atmosphere. The dust was such a large amount that it was effectively blocking all sunlight around the entire planet.

The E-D attempts to remove the dust using her ventral saucer phasers, but at the risk that, if the variance in the phaser's power output is off by more than 60 gigawatts, a chain-reaction will occur that will completely burn of the Pentharan atmosphere! Suffice to say, the process is sucessful, and only the volcanic dust is burned off.

A long time ago, I once calculated under some conservative assumptions that the amount of energy generated by the burn-off attempt was conservatively in the range of 183 gigatons over 11 seconds. This assumed that the amount of dust in the Pentharan atmosphere was only equal to the moderately large explosive volcanic eruptions of Krakatoa in 1883, which blasted more than 10 cubic kilometers of dust into the Earth's atmosphere.

While Krakatoa certainly had signficant effects on Earth's gobal climate, some lasting for a number of years after the event, it did not do so (thankfully) to anything like the effect that the Penthara IV volcanoes did in effectively blocking all sunlight from reaching the surface of the planet, and so 183 gigatons is likely a highly conservative estimate.

It's been a while. Anyone want to take a crack at assessing the Penthara IV event?
-Mike
I remember our argument over the 60 GW variance thing, but it was settled rather satisfyingly. Now, this is puzzling. What did this atmosphere had so special that a chain reaction could be started if you dumped too much energy in it?
Did the volcanos release some exotic element which was contained within the mantle thus far or what?

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Post by Roondar » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:15 am

About 'The Masterpiece Society':

Geordi does not confirm the top end for warpcore power when he gives his statment for very obvious reasons - if it normally gets up to the terawatt range that says very little about it's top end figure, we don't know how much above normal that is after all. For all we know, 'normally' is a mere fraction of it's limit.

And of course there is the problem that they did manage to do stuff with the E-D under it's own ower which handilly exceed terawatts. Such as move a moonsized asteroid (both with and without mass alteration - though the first ended up a failure, they still managed to move it a bit). This is just one example, there are many more of course.

Not the least of which is in the same episode, the fragment they tow is really, really heavy and would require much more than a few terawatts to be moved ;)

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Post by l33telboi » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:51 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Sorry, I checked with Chakoteya.net's transcript, and they disagree with that. It is millions of gigawatts, not billions.
And I've checked with the episode itself and even seen a thread where this very same question was asked, on SB. The overwhelming conclusion was that he says billions. This is what I myself hear as well. And SB is a place where people would say million instead of billion just out of spite. I've seen your transcript before, and it's still as incorrect as it was back then.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:00 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:Another possible indicator of GCS firepower can be found in TNG's "A Matter of Time", where the E-D attempts to remove a thick layer of volcanic dust from Earth-like planet Penthara IV's atmosphere. The dust was such a large amount that it was effectively blocking all sunlight around the entire planet.

The E-D attempts to remove the dust using her ventral saucer phasers, but at the risk that, if the variance in the phaser's power output is off by more than 60 gigawatts, a chain-reaction will occur that will completely burn of the Pentharan atmosphere! Suffice to say, the process is sucessful, and only the volcanic dust is burned off.

A long time ago, I once calculated under some conservative assumptions that the amount of energy generated by the burn-off attempt was conservatively in the range of 183 gigatons over 11 seconds. This assumed that the amount of dust in the Pentharan atmosphere was only equal to the moderately large explosive volcanic eruptions of Krakatoa in 1883, which blasted more than 10 cubic kilometers of dust into the Earth's atmosphere.

While Krakatoa certainly had signficant effects on Earth's global climate, some lasting for a number of years after the event, it did not do so (thankfully) to anything like the effect that the Penthara IV volcanoes did in effectively blocking all sunlight from reaching the surface of the planet, and so 183 gigatons is likely a highly conservative estimate.

It's been a while. Anyone want to take a crack at assessing the Penthara IV event?
-Mike
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I remember our argument over the 60 GW variance thing, but it was settled rather satisfyingly. Now, this is puzzling. What did this atmosphere had so special that a chain reaction could be started if you dumped too much energy in it?
I'am sorry, but nothing of the sort was done, except in your viewpoint. You simply refused to except that the 60 GW variance was a critically tiny fraction of the total output, despite characters like Geordi and Picard implying or outright stating that it was.

There were no technobabble elements or anything. The only thing was that the dust had by that time become simply electrostatically charged, and the phaser blast was going to turn the dust into high energy plasma so that it could be drawn upward through the E-D's navigational deflector beams and shields, and then shunted out into space (essentially they were turning the E-D and her deflector into a giant lightning rod).
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Did the volcanos release some exotic element which was contained within the mantle thus far or what?
Again, no exotic elements, the dust had merely become electrostatically charged. But that is neither here nor there. One interesting part about all this is, regardless of the phaser power, the ionized plasma energies would in the hundreds of gigatons range at minimum, and yet the E-D's shields held out against it, and even held it while the E-D rotates for several seconds to point the deflector dish out into space and vent the plasma. So if shields are that strong, then the phasers and torpedoes themselves by default must be strong enough to punch through them, therefore at least high-megaton range to low-end gigaton weapons yeilds are implied here.

What I was actually asking, if you read more carefully, is what the calculated energies needed to turn the volcanic dust into a plasma, regardless of where the energy comes from: i.e. the phasers, chain-reaction, ect.

For example, how much total dust would need to have been deposited into Penthara IV's atmosphere by the volcanoes to utterly blot out the sunlight around the entire planet such that within a day or two, it was snowing heavily in otherwise were once warm temperate and or tropical climates?
-Mike

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:34 pm

l33telboi wrote:
Mike DiCenso wrote:Sorry, I checked with Chakoteya.net's transcript, and they disagree with that. It is millions of gigawatts, not billions.
And I've checked with the episode itself and even seen a thread where this very same question was asked, on SB. The overwhelming conclusion was that he says billions. This is what I myself hear as well. And SB is a place where people would say million instead of billion just out of spite. I've seen your transcript before, and it's still as incorrect as it was back then.
A hundred people being wrong does not make them right, either. Just as the Warsies still insist on flack bursts in the Avenger-Falcon chase scenes being vaporized asteroids of 100 meters does not make that correct, a few people saying they heard "billions", instead of "millions" is not going to make that correct.

But I'am not going to argue, what I am going to do is default to the millions statement since it allows for a more reasonably fair and conservative estimate of the plasma power in the one conduit.
-Mike

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Post by l33telboi » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:42 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:A hundred people being wrong does not make them right, either.
No, but in this case they (or should I say we) are right and you're wrong. That's just the way it is. You have your transcript and that's all fine and dandy. But I've not only seen the episode itself but seen an actual poll on what people hear. And it is billions.
But I'am not going to argue, what I am going to do is default to the millions statement since it allows for a more reasonably fair and conservative estimate of the plasma power in the one conduit.
Saying billions is really millions is not conservative. It's incorrect. You don't seem to be willing to accept this, fine then. I'm not going to argue the point further then this because it’s obvious you’ve made up your mind.

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