In defense on TDiC

[Tyralak]

This is a repost of a thread I started recently at ASVS.

After looking back at years of denials, excuses and FUD from Warsies
about why a canon episode, TDiC should be ignored, I can't find a scrap
of logic in the claims. Let's look at a few myths, and then the facts.

Warsie myth # 1: "The visuals didn't show the kind of damage reported
by the sensors."

The facts: The visuals show little of anything. They show a planet with
gigantic ripples covering it's surface. Are we to expect close ups of
the planet's surface to confirm what the sensors said and the limited
visuals suggest? The show DID have a budget, after all.

Warsie myth # 2: "The Founders were broadcasting false sensor readings,
and this shows the sensors data to be unreliable."

The facts: The false sensor data was ONLY in reference to life signs.
Not to damage of the planet's surface. The false readings were to trick
the Romulans and Cardassians into believing that the Fonders were still
on the planet. Once the Romulans discovered the ruse, there was no
indication that the damage readings were also erronious. We also have
the inconveinent fact that the Romulans and Cardassians expected that
kind of damage. That's the goal they were aiming for. When the damage
reports came back, nobody was suprised. If this type of damage was
outside the realm of possibility, the Romluans would have been tipped
off immediately. If the Founders were broadcasting false damage
readings, they would have been foolish to send out readings that were
so far out of the realm of possibility. An example. A fighter aircraft
fired a single missle at a target, say a small building, and the enemy
had a way of sending back false damage pictures to survailence
satellites. The false imagery showed half the city destroyed by that
missle. Does anyone really think the side that fired the missle would
pat themselves on the back and say "Good job! That missle took out half
the city!" when the missle only had the capability of destroying a
small building? That wouldn't pass the test of logic, and neither does
this Warsie myth.

Warsie myth # 3: "This doesn't fit with the rest of the combined canon
as we see it."

The facts: Not only does this go against the rules of the debate, but
it goes against several things that are indeed part of established
canon. The rules of the debate say that with the exception of one-time
devices that were destroyed and no longer exist,(Genesis, etc) you
cannot try to exclude inconveinent evidence by trying to claim it
doesn't fit with the rest of the series. Aside from that, it does fit
with a part of the series that has been part of the canon since TOS:
General Order 24. The destruction of the entire surface of a planet. A
last resort.

Conclusion: As inconveinent to Warsies as TDiC is, it is still canon,
and give the fact it's on screen, is actually a higher canon than the
Warsie Bible, the ICS. The numbers in the ICS are given gospel status,
and I currently have no quarrel with them, until Lucasfilm says
otherwise. Power levels for TNG ships should absolutely be reckoned, at
least in part, by TDiC.

[Praeothmin]

Well, the problem is that in order to be able to analyze this event correctly, we do need to be able to analyze the visuals, and according to a lot of people, the visuals really don't match what is said.

I agree that most Warsie will do anything to ensure SW always beats ST, but they do have a point when stating the visuals don't match the dialog.

The question is:
Is there a way to explain the visuals we have, when compared to the expected effects, or to the dialog?

[Mike DiCenso]

Yes there is. If you interpret the visuals so that what we are seeing are massive holes punched into the crust, which in turn neatly explains why we still see the explosions and shockwave rings still going over a minute after the bombardment ends.
-Mike

[Mith]

Well, the problem is that in order to be able to analyze this event correctly, we do need to be able to analyze the visuals, and according to a lot of people, the visuals really don't match what is said.

I agree that most Warsie will do anything to ensure SW always beats ST, but they do have a point when stating the visuals don't match the dialog.

The question is:
Is there a way to explain the visuals we have, when compared to the expected effects, or to the dialog?

We actually do see massive shockwaves traveling across the planet, which suggests a shit load of energy being relesaed, however, the lack of exceptionally giant mushroom clouds is their complaint.

Of course, there is nothing to counter the six hour claim, which still placed their firepower well above ICS claims. If I recall, it takes about 24 hours to destroy the surface of a planet according to ICS, for a warbird with only 1/20th of that firepower, it would take them four hours less.

[Praeothmin]

We see explosions and shockwaves, yet, but no fireballs, no "mushroom clouds", as Mith said.

If the weapons were that powerful, wouldn't we see some fireball effects, due to the instantaneous super-heating of the air and planet's crust?

[Mike DiCenso]

Warsie myth # 1: "The visuals didn't show the kind of damage reported
by the sensors."

The facts: The visuals show little of anything. They show a planet with
gigantic ripples covering it's surface. Are we to expect close ups of
the planet's surface to confirm what the sensors said and the limited
visuals suggest? The show DID have a budget, after all.

Actually, if you look more closely at the FX, you will see more than just simple ripples. There are, in fact, large explosions at the centers of where most of the shockwave rings are originating from (Nine shockwave rings in all at my last count). Take a look at these images from Trekcore (note: you will have to cut and paste as Trekcore no longer allows hotlinking):

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... st_432.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... st_433.jpg

Some interesting things of note are that dispite what some pro-Wars types say, the rings and central explosions are not muddy brown clouds, they are in fact glowing, as the bombarment hits the planet on it's night side. By some estimates I've seen, the shockwave rings alone as atmospheric disturbances would require low-gigaton energies to create.
-Mike

[Mith]

We see explosions and shockwaves, yet, but no fireballs, no "mushroom clouds", as Mith said.

If the weapons were that powerful, wouldn't we see some fireball effects, due to the instantaneous super-heating of the air and planet's crust?

It's also true that we don't know what their atmosphere is made up of entirely, there might be something there that counteracts such a thing. Of course, this isn't uncommon in Trek. During TNG, we see massive fireballs on planets, but no mushroom clouds, or even shockwaves in some cases. Most also happen to be exceptionally short for some strange reason. Given the consistant errors, I would say that this is dismissable as the ships magically being able to change their size.

[Mike DiCenso]

We see explosions and shockwaves, yet, but no fireballs, no "mushroom clouds", as Mith said.

How are you defining in difference between a "fireball" versus an "explosion". Look closely at some of the shockwave centers, particularly the one at the upper left, and tell me those explosions aren't also fireballs.
-Mike

[Roondar]

Just to play devil's advocate for a bit, I'll try to explain what the 'other side' sees as some of the problems with TDiC.

The problem is actually threefold:

1) A matter/antimatter explosion, like the one from a photon torpedo, would be incredibly bright. Eyeblindingly so. A simple kiloton/megaton level nuke creates a sun-like ball of fire that lasts several seconds (when detonated in the atmosphere). The TDiC 'fireballs' are simply not bright enough by a long shot. Compare them to the flash in Skin of Evil to see what I mean.

2) A gigaton level event would throw tons of debris right up into the atmosphere and orbit. We ought to see debris fly straight into orbit and beyond, but instead of that we see mostly two-dimensional clouds form that appear to lack the energy to push themselves into orbit.

3) If a significant section of the crust is destoyed (even as small as the opening volley would have done, given the timeframe named) we'd see magma seeping though the holes created. Which we don't.

[SailorSaturn13]

Just to play devil's advocate for a bit, I'll try to explain what the 'other side' sees as some of the problems with TDiC.

The problem is actually threefold:

1) A matter/antimatter explosion, like the one from a photon torpedo, would be incredibly bright. Eyeblindingly so. A simple kiloton/megaton level nuke creates a sun-like ball of fire that lasts several seconds (when detonated in the atmosphere). The TDiC 'fireballs' are simply not bright enough by a long shot. Compare them to the flash in Skin of Evil to see what I mean.

2) A gigaton level event would throw tons of debris right up into the atmosphere and orbit. We ought to see debris fly straight into orbit and beyond, but instead of that we see mostly two-dimensional clouds form that appear to lack the energy to push themselves into orbit.

3) If a significant section of the crust is destroyed (even as small as the opening volley would have done, given the time frame named) we'd see magma seeping though the holes created. Which we don't.

Obviously, those weren't DET weapons at all. 20 ships simply cannot carry enough antimatter. Guess is, weapons were acting like phasers, which let matter disappear without any effects, at least on some settings. The circles marked the front of disappearance.

[l33telboi]

Obviously, those weren't DET weapons at all. 20 ships simply cannot carry enough antimatter.

Shouldn't be impossible. If these ships made preparations and slight modifications, they could possibly have carried enough antimatter. Not sure on the mass of these vessels, but assuming each one is around a million tons and they devote 10% of their mass to antimatter, you'd get the energy potential they're carrying to petatons per vessel.

I agree that the visuals don't make sense. Though I'm not sure if that actually matters. I've never been one particularly fond of ignoring certain events because visuals don't add up. It makes for a pretty absurd whole in the end.

[Mike DiCenso]

Just to play devil's advocate for a bit, I'll try to explain what the 'other side' sees as some of the problems with TDiC.

The problem is actually threefold:

1) A matter/antimatter explosion, like the one from a photon torpedo, would be incredibly bright. Eyeblindingly so. A simple kiloton/megaton level nuke creates a sun-like ball of fire that lasts several seconds (when detonated in the atmosphere). The TDiC 'fireballs' are simply not bright enough by a long shot. Compare them to the flash in Skin of Evil to see what I mean.

2) A gigaton level event would throw tons of debris right up into the atmosphere and orbit. We ought to see debris fly straight into orbit and beyond, but instead of that we see mostly two-dimensional clouds form that appear to lack the energy to push themselves into orbit.

3) If a significant section of the crust is destroyed (even as small as the opening volley would have done, given the time frame named) we'd see magma seeping though the holes created. Which we don't.

Obviously, those weren't DET weapons at all. 20 ships simply cannot carry enough antimatter. Guess is, weapons were acting like phasers, which let matter disappear without any effects, at least on some settings. The circles marked the front of disappearance.

You've forgotten a very important point, SS13... None of those ships were powered by antimatter, they used quantum singularities for their warp cores. Also the warbirds are much, much bigger and more massive than a Galaxy class starship, thus even if they were antimatter powered, they could still carry a signifcant amount of reactants.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

The facts: The visuals show little of anything. They show a planet with
gigantic ripples covering it's surface. Are we to expect close ups of
the planet's surface to confirm what the sensors said and the limited
visuals suggest? The show DID have a budget, after all.

Huh. Give me two pennies and I can strap you a white glow on the surface with photoshop, and do the same crap with a compositing software.
Please.

For the rest, we already have a TDiC thread here.

[Mike DiCenso]

1) A matter/antimatter explosion, like the one from a photon torpedo, would be incredibly bright. Eyeblindingly so. A simple kiloton/megaton level nuke creates a sun-like ball of fire that lasts several seconds (when detonated in the atmosphere). The TDiC 'fireballs' are simply not bright enough by a long shot. Compare them to the flash in Skin of Evil to see what I mean.

This is true, but the fireball seen in SoE isn't all that bright either, neither is the Alderaan explosion... all of which look like... well, gasoline bombs going off, not super-blindingly bright flashes that events like that should be creating, especially a massive super-nova level energy release like the Alderaan destruction is alleged to be.

Very seldom do the FX in Trek or Wars look like what they should be.

2) A gigaton level event would throw tons of debris right up into the atmosphere and orbit. We ought to see debris fly straight into orbit and beyond, but instead of that we see mostly two-dimensional clouds form that appear to lack the energy to push themselves into orbit.

The explosions and the shockwaves can't be two-dimensional, but rather are mostly confined to the planet's atmosphere. However, if they are as tall as they are wide, then they are being pushed hundreds of km into space.

What we can say with some certainty is that the event is at least in the low single-digit gigatons with that much atmospheric disturbance.

3) If a significant section of the crust is destoyed (even as small as the opening volley would have done, given the timeframe named) we'd see magma seeping though the holes created. Which we don't.

It's hard to tell, but the fireballs and shockwaves are continously going well after the bombardment has stopped so something like that may be happening but is obscured.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

You've forgotten a very important point, SS13... None of those ships were powered by antimatter, they used quantum singularities for their warp cores. Also the warbirds are much, much bigger and more massive than a Galaxy class starship, thus even if they were antimatter powered, they could still carry a signifcant amount of reactants.
-Mike

Perhaps more importantly, they were using trilthium-based plasma torps, and we have reason to suspect trilithium reacts more violently than M/AM when detonated on/in a massive target.

Just look at Soran's trilithium torpedo in Generations. Chain reaction weapon, anyone?