List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

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l33telboi
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Post by l33telboi » Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:32 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:If it's fusion based, the yield could be around two orders of magnitude lower, and it would be necessary to consider that the blast may have been omnidirectional, and only a fraction of it hit the cruiser.
Actually, that might not be correct. The missile in this case seemed rather unconventional in that regard. It had some form of shield barrier that trapped the explosion within it's sphere, which means that the cruiser probably got subjected to quite a lot of the energy that missile released.
What kind of cruiser was it?
Yuuzan Vong cruiser. Not sure on the details of those.
EDIT-T-T: The missile was detonated 500 m away from the ship. It couldn't be a big cruiser. What about those 30 meters long Yoric Vecs?
I doubt they'd use some super-sophisticated über cap-ship fired missile with a Baradium warhead to kill a 30m long vessel.

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:18 pm

How could the missile cast a shield to trap the explosion for seconds, since the missile exploded?
There's that collapsium stuff mentionned somewhere in the EU apparently, which mixed with baradium, gives the stuff for the seismic charges.
Maybe there's something similar used there?

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Post by l33telboi » Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:00 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:How could the missile cast a shield to trap the explosion for seconds, since the missile exploded?
I wouldn't know. But that's apparently what happens according to wookiepedia. My personal guess? A wizard does it.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:42 am

I'd be a little bit suspicous unless there is some kind of atributable source for that statement. For all that I or anyone knows at this moment, it's just another bit of fanwank that's been slipped into the article.

As for how such device might work for Trek or Wars, probably by breaking the missle or torpedo up into two halves; one half generates the directing force field, then milliseconds later, the other half dedonates the warhead, and more of the explosion energies are shunted towards the target than would otherwise be with a conventional ominidirectional explosion.
-Mike

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Post by 2046 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:31 am

l33telboi wrote:I have to point out though, that with this being sci-fi, it's quite plausible that we're talking about science violating matter that releases more energy then E=Mc^2 allows for. But, for me personally, this is very interesting because I've seen so many people harp on about conservation of energy and how it can't be breached that this will force them to make a double-standard. And if I’m in that debate, I’ll be more then happy to point it out.
This is a very good point, but one I'd prefer to amend a little.

Case in point: we have more than one example in Star Trek of antimatter behaving in non-antimatter ways: weird wastes, continent-scale blasts from less than an ounce of the stuff, extreme power from wee reactor cores in seeming violation of e=mc^2, et cetera, and that's just the direct stuff.

Faced with the contradictions, some subscribe to the idea that the oft-referenced "dilithium matrix" (or, more generally, dilithium) is to blame for these oddities. As an extra variable in the equation, this makes sense *from a sci-fi analysis perspective*.

This is a significant point of logical departure between certain analytical groups. Faced with warp and hyperdrive, planet-destroying space stations, visible lasers, and so on ad infinitum (ad nauseum, ad absurdum), one group is willing to go that little bit further.

The other group clings to 20th Century physics and cries foul . . . not at warp, hyperdrive, planet-destroying space stations, and so on, but at the concept of hypothesizing that an unexplained variable can be allowed to explain yet another violation of 20th Century physics.

But of course, they do the exact same thing (and turn a blind eye to it on other occasions . . . anyone ever heard of any withering attacks against "Heisenberg compensators"?). When faced with any number of physics violations in the form of the Death Star, for instance, all forms of handwavium are on the table.

It's weird, but there it is.

So is it possible that baradium . . . like so many wonky Trek "elements" and "molecules", is somehow capable of far more than e=mc^2 would indicate? Yes. But you can't just assume that without cause . . . there needs to be evidence.

Oragahn has provided some evidence for this in reference to baradium's use in seismic charges, which are wacky as all hell, technologically speaking.

That having been said, though, it seems likely that 21 gigatons would ruin a Star Destroyer's day, based on Lucas-canon estimates. So I see no particular cause for an argument from consistency, excepting when one feels it necessary to try to keep consistent with later admitted inflations of EU firepower and energy usage claims.

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Post by 2046 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:35 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:I'd be a little bit suspicous unless there is some kind of atributable source for that statement. For all that I or anyone knows at this moment, it's just another bit of fanwank that's been slipped into the article.

As for how such device might work for Trek or Wars, probably by breaking the missle or torpedo up into two halves; one half generates the directing force field, then milliseconds later, the other half dedonates the warhead, and more of the explosion energies are shunted towards the target than would otherwise be with a conventional ominidirectional explosion.
-Mike
Something similar appeared in the DS9 TM, I think, in the station self-destruction section . . . a shield-contained explosion keeping the energy density against the station itself high for more thorough self-immolation.

SW precedent can be found in some concepts of thermal detonators bandied about back in the day, wherein they supposedly had a super-sharp destruction cutoff beyond which nothing was affected, but within which everything was toast.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:46 am

2046 wrote: Something similar appeared in the DS9 TM, I think, in the station self-destruction section . . . a shield-contained explosion keeping the energy density against the station itself high for more thorough self-immolation.
Yes, actually that is correct, though it is stated to be a last-resort way to increase the station's destruction should photon torpedo derived explosive charges fail. However, it is not explained how the shield will be powered during the explosion long enough to contain the energy released in any meaningful way.
-Mike

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:56 am

2046 wrote:So is it possible that baradium . . . like so many wonky Trek "elements" and "molecules", is somehow capable of far more than e=mc^2 would indicate? Yes. But you can't just assume that without cause . . . there needs to be evidence.
IMO, the energy has to come from somewhere. I'm assuming trilithium explosion causes other matter to enter into annihilation reactions.

I'm assuming omega molecules rip energy from subspace. It's noted this has consequences for warp travel and FTL communications, which omega molecules have caused problems for, so that's plausible to me.
Oragahn has provided some evidence for this in reference to baradium's use in seismic charges, which are wacky as all hell, technologically speaking.
Wacky, yes. Greater than conservation yields, no.

Baradium's use at the core of thermal detonators, which have low thermonuclear range yields for the warhead size, pretty much rules that out. IMO, it could be some sort of metallic hydrogen compound, alloy, or isotope mix. It could be lithium-6 deuteride. It could even be a magic-Star Wars-chemistry high density alloy of metallic hydrogen and lithium, perhaps with some stabilizing or reaction-enhancing elements thrown in.

It's certainly in the EU that thermal detonators are fusion devices, and it's also certainly in the EU that thermal detonators don't have M/AM range devices, so a thousand kilos of baradium is almost certainly sub-gigaton. I'm going to conclude that a thousand kilo baradium warhead blew a Vong cruiser sky-high doesn't fit well with the ICS.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:20 pm

OK, I was looking at the baradium article on Wookieepedia, and it said:
Several racks of baradium missiles were later found in the Missile Hold aboard the Star Destroyer Anakin Solo. These had a trigger mechanism using a deuterium-based proton charge, which on its own was capable of producing a blast comparable to some thermal detonators.[2]
[2] refers to Legacy of the Force: Tempest. Seeing as I just got through Betrayal, it should come as no surprise that I don't have it on me. Anybody have it on hand and able to quote the relevant quote about deuterium-based proton charges?

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Post by l33telboi » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:48 pm

Tempest wrote:She turned her attention back to the missile, grabbing the detonator housing with both hands.

Alema, seething at Lumiya's put-down, deactivated the glow rod. There was a metallic click as the housing contacted the proton detonator.

"Are you mad?" Lumiya whispered. In the silence that followed her question could be heard the soft, nearly inaudible clicking of an electronic timer counting off second-tenths. "Turn on the glow rod!"

"We're trying." Alema slapped the glow rod against her crippled arm a couple of times. Assuming the housing had activated one of the impact triggers, they had about five more seconds to deactivate before the safety delay expired and allowed the charge to detonate. "But we aren't smart enough to understand. We're just a silly dancing girl."

"I apologize!" Lumiya snarled. "Now turn on the kriff-ing light!"

Alema tapped the glow rod against her arm again. "We're still not sure we understand."

"All right," Lumiya said. "Have you ever been part of something bigger and more important than yourself?"

"Our nest."

Alema reactivated the glow rod. Lumiya quickly removed the detonator housing the rest of the way from the proton charge, then reached out with the Force and pulled the trigger plunger away from its contact.

Alema continued her answer. "Individuals died, but Gorog lived on. Gorog was more important than we were."

"Exactly." Lumiya exhaled slowly, then used the Force to levitate the detonator casing while she retrieved the wire cutters and reached inside to snip the rest of the wires. "My situation is not so different."

Alema frowned. "How is it not different? You are the ... last of ... the ..." She stopped, suddenly realizing why Lumiya might be willing to risk dying before Jacen completed his sacrifice . . . why Lumiya seemed so confident he would, even without her to guide him. "There are more Sith?"

Lumiya floated the housing down to the floor, revealing a head-sized wafer of bright metal with a small tube of liquid deuterium sunk into the center.

"There is a plan-a plan that will be carried out whether or not I survive." Lumiya reached over and followed two wires from the top of the deuterium tube to a small circuit board, then undipped them both. "That's all you need to know."

"We don't believe you." Alema did not bother moving the glow rod away, since they were no longer at a crucial point in the disarming process. "Aren't there only two Sith at a time?"

Lumiya picked up her hydrospanner and began to unbolt the proton charge. "Do you really want me to answer that?"

There was a cold edge in Lumiya's voice that rocked Afema back on her heels, and she realized she had probably heard too much already. If there really was a secret organization of Sith-and that was the only reason she could think of for Lumiya's willingness to sacrifice herself-they were obviously very serious about keeping their existence secret.

"No, there is no need," Alema said. "We have heard enough of your lies for now."

An amused twinkled came to Lumiya's eyes. "That is probably for the best."

Lumiya removed the proton charge from the missile, then pulled a black combat vest from her tool satchel and slipped the device into a chest pocket. She checked to be sure that the actuation wires would reach from the deuterium tube to a small sensor pad located about where the wearer's heart would be, but did not affix the clips.

"Very clever," Alema said. "You win even if you lose."

"It is the Sith way." Lumiya scooted her tool satchel down the floor to the next missile on the rack. "Bring the light-we're running out of time."

"We don't understand." Alema began to have a sinking feeling, but she did as Lumiya asked and shined the light on the nose cone of the missile. "How are you going to wear two proton charges?"

"I'm not." Lumiya reignited the fusioncutter, then looked up at Alema. "This one is for you."

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:34 pm

Thank you. I notice that passage does not explicitly compare the proton charge to a thermal detonator (perhaps when the vest blows up, or fails to, the comparison is made, perhaps Wookieepedia editors were just putting together pieces) but it is definitely quantifiable.

Depending on the sort of fusion reaction, yield may vary a little. For a "messy" D-D fusion reaction (going to the unstable He-3 or H-3 isotopes with waste neutron/protons), we're looking at only ~0.1% of total mass annihilated, or less than 100 terajoules per kilogram.

For marginally "cleaner" fusing all the way to helium-4 (helium-3 and tritium are both still very easy to fuse; helium-4 is the second most common isotope in the universe for a good reason), 600 TJ/kg; to iron-56, the maximum possible theoretical yield, 800 TJ/kg.

The tube, from the passage, is probably no more than 20 cm long and 5 cm wide at most, which would give <400 cc of liquid deuterium. Most likely, from the "wafer" description, I would guess that the tube is 5-100 cc. Call it at most 100g of liquid deuterium, quite possibly only around 1 gram.

It would be nice to suggest that, with SW technology, at least 1% of the deuterium is going to actually get fused in some fashion in spite of the tiny size of the device.

So if we want to be pretty sure we include the detonator's yield... we should be saying not much short of a gigajoule at least, 80 terajoules at most. In other words, somewhere between a five hundred pound bomb and Trinity.

However, it's much more important to the VS debate on the whole that a "proton charge" is made from liquid deuterium. I was expecting metallic protium - hydrogen-1, pure protons - but had never seen it explicitly defined. What's particularly important about this is that it explicitly defines not only fusion, but fusion of deuterium for a proton charge.

I think this is pretty compatible with what I've suggested about protorps, even if the details are slightly different, and rather problematic for the ICS.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:15 pm

I'am glad that JMS actually pushed for a quote here from the Wookipedia article's source. It's what I suspected, the explosive is no where near even megaton range, never mind gigaton range, and at the lowest end decidedly sub-kiloton.
-Mike

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Post by l33telboi » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:31 pm

Sub-kiloton? No, I dislike the ICS as much as the next guy, but sub-kiloton explosions blasting apart an entire cruiser just isn't feasible.

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Post by Jedi Master Spock » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:55 pm

l33telboi wrote:Sub-kiloton? No, I dislike the ICS as much as the next guy, but sub-kiloton explosions blasting apart an entire cruiser just isn't feasible.
The sub-megaton (and quite possibly sub-kiloton) yield is the detonator for a baradium missile, not the missile itself. There's actually a bit of room for further play in the figures if the liquid deuterium is being stored at an extraordinarily high pressure.

The Wookieepedia article compares the tube of liquid deuterium with a thermal detonator. Extrapolating from the proton charge to the proton torpedo, the protorps sized for fighter use should really be no more than a megaton or two even for variants that are nothing but warhead, and we'd really expect them to be of a yield most easily measured in terajoules rather than petajoules or gigajoules.

Fairly consistent piece of the real EU picture, IMO.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:04 am

l33telboi wrote:Sub-kiloton? No, I dislike the ICS as much as the next guy, but sub-kiloton explosions blasting apart an entire cruiser just isn't feasible.
For the dedonator it's sub-kiloton at the very lowest end of the scale. For the 1000 kg warhead, it's at least around a megaton or so on the upper end. But realistically I would assume kiloton range yeilds for the missile warheads, if I understand JMS's estimates correctly. But even if megaton range in yeild, it would still be orders of magnitude below the ICS level firepower.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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