Estimating the Size of The Bre'el Moon

[Roondar]

I disagree with the conclusion that photorps involve greater energy release than phasers, or have a greater total destructive effect.

This is not necessarily true, as we know from episodes like "Q Who?", and "The Nth Degree" that a full yeild, full spread of torpedoes is vastly more powerful than a single full-power phaser shot, and at close range can cripple the shielded starship that fired them, or outright destroy them, if unshielded.
-Mike

Quite logical when you think of it - even if a single photon torpedo is weaker than a phaser beam, you can launch many at once for low costs (energy wise anyway). If the yield is high enough and there are enough launched at the same time the resulting total yield is indeed quite likely to be higher than a phaser beam.

Which begs the question: what about many phasers at once from the same ship - the E-D only rarely fires more than one beam at a time. I wonder if this is because the total phaser yield is not going to be higher, or because of other limits.

[Mike DiCenso]

Usually the E-D does not fire more than one phaser because the situation did not call for it. In the following episodes, the E-D fires more than one phaser beam, either from the same array, or from multiple arrays:

- "Yesterday's Enterprise", the E-D hits a BoP with two phaser blasts from the main saucer arrays, destroying the enemy vessel.

- "The Survivors", the E-D is shown firing up to four phaser beams as well as a volley of simultaeous photon torpedoes. Each phaser beam apparently coming from different arrays, but unable to penetrate the illusionary Husnock warship's shields.

- "Conundrum", the E-D fires a dozen or more small phaser beams from the emitters of the second largest of the saucer arrays, vaporizing several Lysian drone pods.

The firing of multiple phasers at once is not just limited to TNG. In DS9 we see in SoA a GCS fire two phaser beams at a cardassian Galor, and in VOY's "Dragon's Teeth", the Voyager engages several Vaadwaur heavy fighters, and destroys several simultaeously with multiple phaser beams from three different arrays.
-Mike

[Roondar]

Usually the E-D does not fire more than one phaser because the situation did not call for it. In the following episodes, the E-D fires more than one phaser beam, either from the same array, or from multiple arrays:

- "Yesterday's Enterprise", the E-D hits a BoP with two phaser blasts from the main saucer arrays, destroying the enemy vessel.

- "The Survivors", the E-D is shown firing up to four phaser beams as well as a volley of simultaeous photon torpedoes. Each phaser beam apparently coming from different arrays, but unable to penetrate the illusionary Husnock warship's shields.

- "Conundrum", the E-D fires a dozen or more small phaser beams from the emitters of the second largest of the saucer arrays, vaporizing several Lysian drone pods.

The firing of multiple phasers at once is not just limited to TNG. In DS9 we see in SoA a GCS fire two phaser beams at a cardassian Galor, and in VOY's "Dragon's Teeth", the Voyager engages several Vaadwaur heavy fighters, and destroys several simultaeously with multiple phaser beams from three different arrays.
-Mike

In case I wasn't clear, I didn't mean that the E-D (or other ships) couldn't fire more than one beam, I was just wondering if this was due to the total phaser output being limited and using multiple beams therefore meaning that you'd just lower the yield per beam instead.

For an example: in ST:FC the fleet does not use seperate phaser beams per ship against the borg, just one (this is just one example of course, there are many others in which a ship uses only one beam even if it could fire multiple ones). This would make perfect sense if the total phaser yield does not go up when multiple arrays are used. It would however make a lot less sense if this does not happen.

To put this as simply as I can, my question is:

Are phasers powered from one, single source or does every phaser array have it's own powersource which is independent of the rest of them?

[Who is like God arbour]

Just a point here. Presumably WILGA is refering to the Romulan photon torpedoes mentioned as having created a temporal loop that allowed the Enterprise-C to travel through time. However, it was not some specifically weird property of the torpedoes which created the rift, it was the high energy reactions of the torpdoes' dedonations on super-string material:

DATA: It is a possibility, Captain. If that hypothesis is correct, the phenomenon we just encountered would be a temporal rift in space.
PICARD: A rift?
DATA Possibly the formation of a Kerr loop from superstring material. It would require high-energy interactions occurring in the vicinity for such a structure to be formed. The rift is certainly not stable, Captain. It could collapse at any time.

So what this shows is that photon torpedoes, especially a large volley of them do result in a very high-energy yeild. But the torpedo dedonations by themselves without the super-string material would not have opened a rift.
-Mike

OK

I don't remember that this was said. But it is to be found in the script and I assume that either my memory is faulty or that this scene was cut or different translated in the german version.

But nobody shall say, that I'm not able to admit to be wrong.

[Mike DiCenso]

Are phasers powered from one, single source or does every phaser array have it's own powersource which is independent of the rest of them?

Based on the imformation we do have, phasers can be powered by impulse or warp power, or even auxiliary power sources (though this is only good for a limited number of shots). I would imagine, based on the multi-phaser use against the Husnock ship (a very large capital ship), that there is an overall increase in the total energy/power output. Otherwise, why do it in that situation?
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Just a point here. Presumably WILGA is refering to the Romulan photon torpedoes mentioned as having created a temporal loop that allowed the Enterprise-C to travel through time. However, it was not some specifically weird property of the torpedoes which created the rift, it was the high energy reactions of the torpdoes' dedonations on super-string material:

DATA: It is a possibility, Captain. If that hypothesis is correct, the phenomenon we just encountered would be a temporal rift in space.
PICARD: A rift?
DATA Possibly the formation of a Kerr loop from superstring material. It would require high-energy interactions occurring in the vicinity for such a structure to be formed. The rift is certainly not stable, Captain. It could collapse at any time.

So what this shows is that photon torpedoes, especially a large volley of them do result in a very high-energy yeild. But the torpedo dedonations by themselves without the super-string material would not have opened a rift.
-Mike

OK

I don't remember that this was said. But it is to be found in the script and I assume that either my memory is faulty or that this scene was cut or different translated in the german version.

But nobody shall say, that I'm not able to admit to be wrong.

FYI, that quote is a transcript from the as-spoken dialog in the episode, not from a shooting script.
-Mike

[Roondar]

Are phasers powered from one, single source or does every phaser array have it's own powersource which is independent of the rest of them?

Based on the imformation we do have, phasers can be powered by impulse or warp power, or even auxiliary power sources (though this is only good for a limited number of shots). I would imagine, based on the multi-phaser use against the Husnock ship (a very large capital ship), that there is an overall increase in the total energy/power output. Otherwise, why do it in that situation?
-Mike

Quite true.

However, this does beg the question why the hell they don't do it more often when they're in danger or when they're out to destroy something - the first rule of combat is (assuming the decision to stay and fight is taken) to attempt to defeat your enemy as quickly as possible, so as to minimize the risk to yourself.

Anything else is bad tactics and potentially quite dangerous.

A good example of why this attitude (hitting with less than you've got) is a really, really bad thing are the fights in ST:Generations and ST:Insurrection. Now, in the later you could argue that they where not trying to fight but to get to a position to send their message but the tactics involved when they where forced to fight where silly at best, lunatic at worst.

[Mike DiCenso]

That's probably for another thread all together. But I would presume that such a thing is very energy intensive to fire several arrays at once at their maximum power output. It's a big one-two punch that has to take out the enemy the first time, or you wind up with signficantly exausted energy reserves and or shields and propulsion systems that don't have full power available to them.
-Mike

[Mith]

I know it's not canon, that's exactly why I'm taking offense to people using those figures. The photonic torpedoes you're talking about were pegged to around 50 megatons on spacebattles not long ago. Minimum, that is.

Actually, it was around 48.x megatons, and given the way it's calculated, it doesn't allow much for variance. If it did, that obtained yield would be a middle ground more than anything else.
I've got in touch with Squish, and I've seen that the formula itself is based upon the final crater's size, not the transient one, and rather accurate based on the final crater's diameter.

It wouldn't be out of the realm of credibility to have TNG+ torps being able of 50-150 MT, if not more. I mean, there's lot of room in a torp, and based on the blue wax stuff, it would be rather easy to inflate yields dramatically.

Blue wax... we talked about that stuff back during the "ISOTON..." thread. Are we sure that the blue thing was the AM, and not a shell of something, possibly reactants or else?
Oh well, that's off topic.

Actually, if I recall in TOS, there was a battle in The Changling between the Enterprise and the killer robot, which strangely enough, had more firepower than the Enterprise could muster herself. I believe Spock himself said that the shots were equal to 90 photon torpedoes. Strangely enough, the Enterprise not only survived, but took three more shots. Assuming that for some reason, torpedo yields hadn't increased since Enterprise, we'd get 17,280 megatons. As in, the Enterprise was able to withstand that much firepower before her shields collapsed.

Strange indeed.

[Mike DiCenso]

Welcome to the forum, Mith! :-)

A point of order about the TOS episode "The Changeling": The reason the Enterprise even withstoood as much as she did is because Scotty dropped the ship from warp speed and diverted the power into the shields. This tells us actually how much power is involved in keeping a nearly long million ton, 300 meter starship at warp.

As for Nomad's capabilities, we don't know much about it's technology as it was no longer the original probe launched from Earth, but a hybrid, which likely had some pretty advanced technology incorporated into the new whole from the alien Tan Ru probe. Consider that a robot barely over 1 meter tall, weighing at 500 kg was able to generate that much power, plus the power to sterilize 4 planets of life in a short span of time... it's pretty amazing!
-Mike

[Roondar]

I don't think we can use that episode of TOS for an accurate figure of shield strength - we've seen incidents (ST:VI for one. There are probably more examples, but I can't remember them and I don't like guessing) in which we can clearly see that the Enterprise can take nowhere near 90 torpedoes before it's shields drop.

As for the warpcore to shields phenomenon, Voyager established (in the episode Resistance) that the warpcore powers nearly everything on the ship (the warpcore reaction was slowing down due to a shortage of tellerium. As they lost power they needed to drop the shields to keep life support operational. This confirms that 24th century ships power their shields from the warpcore*).

Voyager's combat record does not show any special powers or uber-restistance to damage even though they power their shields through the warpcore.

Given the above, it's not reasonable to assume taking 90 photons is par for the course for any starship in the Federation.

*) Dialogue follows:

KIM: Commander, any word on that tellerium?
CHAKOTAY: Not yet. How bad is it?
KIM: The anti-matter reaction rate is down to twelve percent. If it drops below nine the plasma injectors will lock up and we'll never be able to re-initialize the nacelles.
CHAKOTAY: Options?
KIM: If we're going to reduce our power demands even further, we're going to have to drop the shields.
CHAKOTAY: I don't want to leave the ship defenseless this close to a hostile planet.
KIM: All other systems are already offline. Life support is at minimal. You asked for options? That's our last one.
CHAKOTAY: All right, power down the shields.
KIM: That helped, but it's only a matter of time. There's nothing more we can do without the tellerium.

[Cocytus]

I'd be cautious of using Voyager to compare to anything else in Trek canon, being as it is an isolated vessel with no access to repair and upgrade facilities, its crew having to rely on patchwork and improvisation. Consider "Hero Worship" and "The Nth Degree," which both establish that the warp core does not directly power the shields under normal operation, or many other systems on the ship. We know the impulse drive has its own reactor, and the Enterprise-D had at least nine other fusion reactors, though I forget the episode which named them. In "Peak Performance," the Hathaway's warp core was offline, but life support was operational. Every time we've seen a starship dump its core, life support has been maintained. The Enterprise-E jettisoned its core to seal the subspace tear, and still had power for Riker's little maneuver and was able to fight effectively in the later battle over the Ba'ku planet in Insurrection. The Delta Flyer dumped its core in a nebula, and still managed to get several hundred thousand kilometers away before the core blew. Nevertheless, taking into account Mike's point above, and the fact that the warp power-to-shield grid in Nth Degree caused a strength increase of 300%, adding warp power to the shields vastly increases their strength.

One point about ST6, we don't know the precise abilities of Chang's ship either. Its possible that its weapons had been enhanced along with its warp drive. The other possibility is that the Enterprise-A had overextended its systems with all the running around at high warp it had been doing: first to Rura Penthe, then its dash to Khitomer to intercept the assassins. Certainly the Enterprise-D overextended it systems with several high-warp dashes in "The Chase."

[Roondar]

I'm not going to dispute that, but you must at the very least agree with me that taking 90 photon torpedoes to the shields is not standard performance. That is to say, nowhere in TNG+ have we ever seen any starship take anywhere near that and still be in one piece.

Heck, in DS9 most starships could only take five to ten hits (torps or otherwise) max* before they'd be in serious trouble or plainly disabled/destroyed.

*) As seen in the many 'war' episodes such as Sacrifice of Angels and Favor the Bold, some ships even get blown up/get their shields disabled/pierced in that sequence on the very first hit they take!

Couple this with a 300% increase in power to the shields when using warp power and you're still way, way short of 90 torpedoes. For TNG+ ships of course.

This is without considering other problems that arise when the E-D could take 90+ photon torpedoes to the shields in one blast yet still consider a single photon torpedo threathening. In fact, if you need that many of them to pierce the shields one wonders why the hell Federation ships even carry them (and why they don't use warp power for their shields in every scenario that calls for them).

[Cocytus]

Yes, that I can agree with, though to be fair, most of the ships we see destroyed in Dominion battle scenes are older vessels such as Mirandas and Excelsiors (though there is one Streamrunner destroyed in Sacrifice of Angels and at least one Akira destroyed in Tears of the Prophets. We see another taking hits right before the Excelsior-class Valley Forge is carved up) Your point still stands, however, that its very rare to see ships absorbing that kind of power.

[Mith]

Welcome to the forum, Mith! :-)

*bows*

Thank you.

A point of order about the TOS episode "The Changeling": The reason the Enterprise even withstoood as much as she did is because Scotty dropped the ship from warp speed and diverted the power into the shields. This tells us actually how much power is involved in keeping a nearly long million ton, 300 meter starship at warp.

Did he? I'll have to look it up sometime.

As for Nomad's capabilities, we don't know much about it's technology as it was no longer the original probe launched from Earth, but a hybrid, which likely had some pretty advanced technology incorporated into the new whole from the alien Tan Ru probe. Consider that a robot barely over 1 meter tall, weighing at 500 kg was able to generate that much power, plus the power to sterilize 4 planets of life in a short span of time... it's pretty amazing!
-Mike

Shouldn't they have been able to scan it to find out what per say was giving it so much damn power?