So can Trek ships use phasers to shoot down torps?

[Kane Starkiller]

I'm sure, you are able to prove that claim. I haven't heard of a system, that is able to detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin.

Um disruptor is a big shiny glowy orb which we can easily see with our own eyes as soon as it emerges from the ship. Are you saying that Federation is not capable of building optical sensors that are more acute then our own eyes?

But even if it is possible, do you really think, that the Scimitar would fire, while flying a predictable course, so that the Enterprise could aim ahead?

Scimitar and Enterprise were fighting several ship lengths away from each other. At that range it would take light emitted from an emerging disruptor a few microseconds to reach the optical sensors, a few miliseconds perhaps for the computers to calculate the necessary movement of the weapons towards the point of origin and execute the fire command. In that amount of time Scimitar won't be going anywhere.

That corresponds with what was shown in the movie. It is not possible, to react significant faster as it was shown and nevertheless, it was not enough: The Scimitar was already somewhere else and not where it was, as the first phaser fire has impacted in the shields.

Yes I have seen the scene and no the Scimitar wasn't performing any wild manouvers. It just kept going in the same direction and if photon torpedoes had a better guidance they should have been able to extrapolate Scimitar's movement and head in that direction. It would have been a clean hit. Just ask USS Lake Erie.

Apart from my own objection, that reasoning is faulty:

1. You don't know, if they have informed him off-screen in that movie or in other episodes, where a jamming wasn't mentioned on-screen.

It's up to you to prove there was any jamming in those cases not up to me and prove that it wasn't.

2. But if they would jamm the sensors of the Enterprise during the battle, that doesn't mean, that they have already jammed her sensors in Orbit of Romulus, when Geordi has said, that they can detect nothing coming through Scimitar's cloak.

Then Geordi or Data would've reported something. Again it is up to you to show evidence of jamming. Not to mention the question as to what kind of jamming could've possibly made any difference at those ranges.

3. Even the third objection assumes passiv optical sensors (or cameras), though we know, that the Enterprise has sensors that don't work like cameras. To jamm them, a (visible) blinding bright light would be useless. We don't know, if she has, beside these sensors, cameras on which they could have fallen back, if their sophisticated sensor system is jammed (with for the human eyes invisible signals).

If the sensors can be jammed at that range while we can still see the torpedoes with our eyes then the sensors are worse then I thought.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but in this post you've actually admitted that phasers are capable of shooting down torps. Because otherwise adding more phasers wouldn't help and thus your argument wouldn't make sense. But something tells me that if I were to ask the question staright up, "Can the Sovereign shoot down incoming torps", you'd say "No."
So how about it? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Not so. Cpl Kendall stated that it would be a good idea for them to have point defense guns to shoot down incoming torpedoes, you responded that that wouldn't be "cost effective". My response was directed to you, namely that IF they could shoot down torpedoes it would be very cost effective to install point defense guns on the hull.
That Federation doesn't shoot down enemy torpedoes is not in dispute, the question is why. Your argument is that they have the accuracy but the shields are too strong or they are afraid of "photonic shockwave". For the first if shield generator put into a 2m long coffin can be so powerful as to be able to stop a phaser fire then shield generators put on a large starship would make it practically invulnerable to phaser fire. For the second if they are afraid of "photonic shockwave" that means they are unable to shoot down the torpedo before it comes to close which brings us back to accuracy.

[l33telboi]

Not so. Cpl Kendall stated that it would be a good idea for them to have point defense guns to shoot down incoming torpedoes, you responded that that wouldn't be "cost effective".

If you're going to jump into a discussion, then you should make sure you know the points being made before pressing the reply button.

So, a few corrections. While he did indeed say that it'd be a good idea for them to have point-defense guns to shoot down incoming torpedoes, he also said these should be made up of smaller, less potent phasers. That's quite the important detail.

Because that is what I object to. It isn't cost-effective to mount weapons that will never be used onto a ship, and that won't change no matter how many quotation marks you place around the term cost-effective.

My response was directed to you, namely that IF they could shoot down torpedoes it would be very cost effective to install point defense guns on the hull.

Then you have indeed missed the point, because they already have enough weapons to do it. Adding more would solve nothing.

That Federation doesn't shoot down enemy torpedoes is not in dispute, the question is why. Your argument is that they have the accuracy but the shields are too strong or they are afraid of "photonic shockwave".

My argument is no such thing. The photonic shockwave and shielding are two possibilities, but I've not claimed that either is the undisputable truth. The reason why they don't shoot them down, is like I specifically said in my earlier post - unknown.

They have the capability, but they don't. Why? Impossible to say without further information, though the 'photonic shockwaves' and the shielding are two distinct possibilities.

For the first if shield generator put into a 2m long coffin can be so powerful as to be able to stop a phaser fire then shield generators put on a large starship would make it practically invulnerable to phaser fire.

Only if you fail to realize that time is an important factor. The shields on a torpedo don’t need to protect it for long, while a starship shield does. And it's also neglecting shield surface area, which may very well be an important factor. Do the absorbtion, deflective, or dissipative capabilities drop, if a shield's surface area grows? Can a more compact shield be made as strong as a starship one, with a smaller power-source?

These are questions you'd have to be able to answer.

And as it is, the shields on the torpedoes are quite strong. IIRC, there was an episode where they actually fired a torpedo into a star, and the shields held for a while. Though that's an episode I've not personally seen.

For the second if they are afraid of "photonic shockwave" that means they are unable to shoot down the torpedo before it comes to close which brings us back to accuracy.

This would depend entirely on what exactly a 'photonic shockwave' is. You seem to assume that it's simply the explosive energy of torpedo being triggered too early. But the fact of the matter is that all the evidence we have makes this a highly unlikely option.

[Who is like God arbour]

I'm sure, you are able to prove that claim. I haven't heard of a system, that is able to detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin.

Um disruptor is a big shiny glowy orb which we can easily see with our own eyes as soon as it emerges from the ship. Are you saying that Federation is not capable of building optical sensors that are more acute then our own eyes?

Let me remind you, what you have claimed:

• • • • Today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back.

With that claim, it is irrelevant what Starfleet is able to do. I want a proof, that today's fire control sensors and computers are able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back. I don't call into question, that disruptors are big shiny glowy bolts, which can easily be seen with the naked eye as soon as they emerge from the cloacking field.

But even if it is possible, do you really think, that the Scimitar would fire, while flying a predictable course, so that the Enterprise could aim ahead?

Scimitar and Enterprise were fighting several ship lengths away from each other. At that range it would take light emitted from an emerging disruptor a few microseconds to reach the optical sensors, a few miliseconds perhaps for the computers to calculate the necessary movement of the weapons towards the point of origin and execute the fire command. In that amount of time Scimitar won't be going anywhere.

1. Please define "several ship lengths". It seems, that you and I have different conceptions of what are "several ship lengths".
2. Look at the movie and you will see, that the phasers and torpedos needs time to reach their destiny. They are not light-speed weapons while the ship is out of warp. The Scimitar doesn't stand still while firing. If the weapons would need one second from the localization of the Scimitar (either by locating their fire or the shield impacts from the own fire) to reach the position, where the Scimitar was, she would only have to be so fast, that she can cover her own length in one second to be fast enough that weapons fire, that was directed at her old position, would miss her.
   
   The Scimitar is, according to Memory Alpha 890 m long. That would mean, that already a velocity of 890 m/s or 3'204 km/h would be enough to cover her own length.
   
   That is not fast. Even the Endeavour space shuttle has a velocity of 7'643 m/s or 27'875 km/h. Even if the weapons fire could reach the position, where the Scimitar was, when she has fired, in an half second, the Scimitar would have to be only so fast as our aged space shuttles to be already somewhere else, when the weapons fire reachs that position.

That corresponds with what was shown in the movie. It is not possible, to react significant faster as it was shown and nevertheless, it was not enough: The Scimitar was already somewhere else and not where it was, as the first phaser fire has impacted in the shields.

Yes I have seen the scene and no the Scimitar wasn't performing any wild manouvers. It just kept going in the same direction and if photon torpedoes had a better guidance they should have been able to extrapolate Scimitar's movement and head in that direction. It would have been a clean hit. Just ask USS Lake Erie.

1. Interessting, in the movie, I have seen, the Scimitar was cloacked during most of the battle and only visible, when she was hit by phaser-, torpedo- oder disruptor fire. I wonder, how you can know, what she has done, while invisible.
2. And what exactly shall I ask the USS Lake Erie? Maybe how their missiles are able to follow a cloacked ship or air plane, from which they don't know, where it is? Or how fast they would be able to localize an enemy object, that is only for a split second visible on their radar, direct their missiles, fire a missile and for the missile to reach the position, where the enemy has appeared for a split second?

Apart from my own objection, that reasoning is faulty:

1. You don't know, if they have informed him off-screen in that movie or in other episodes, where a jamming wasn't mentioned on-screen.
2. [...]
3. [...]

It's up to you to prove there was any jamming in those cases not up to me and prove that it wasn't.

I don't intend to debate a burden of proof fallacy with you. I know, that at SDN, the burden of proof rules are skewed so far, that a productive debate is nearly impossible. Fact is, that generally arguments about where the burden of proof lies are unproductive. In philosophy a different principle of agnoiology [the study of ignorance] is appropriate, to wit, that no hypothesis should be rejected as unjustified without argument against it. Consequently, if the sceptic puts forth a hypothesis inconsistent with the hypothesis of common sense, then there is no burden of proof on either side [1].

I am not convinced, that there was jamming and I have stated that already. I merely wanted to show, that your reasoning in that post ...

• • • • Well seeing as how they always inform the captain about the jamming it obviously isn't just assumed. Yet they didn't mention anything about jamming even when discussing Scimitar's cloaking device and ways to find them. In fact Geordi makes a specific point that they can detect nothing coming through Scimitar's cloak.
        Besides at that range Scimitar would have to basically emit some kind of blinding bright light towards the Enterprise for it to miss the disruptor bolts.

... was faulty. Your objection to my hint, that things happen also off-screen is a demand for proof for such things. That's ludicrous. I'm as unable to prove that something has happened off-screen as you are unable to prove that it has not happened off-screen. There is neither a proof for the one nor for the other possibility. But, because both possiblities are mutually exclusive, one has to be true. We are not able to find the truth. But we are able to estimate, what is true with common sense. But that would mean, that you have to provide real arguments.

My objection against your reasoning still stands: You don't know, if they have informed him off-screen in that movie or in other episodes, where a jamming wasn't mentioned on-screen.

1. [...]
2. But if they would jamm the sensors of the Enterprise during the battle, that doesn't mean, that they have already jammed her sensors in Orbit of Romulus, when Geordi has said, that they can detect nothing coming through Scimitar's cloak.
3. [...]

Then Geordi or Data would've reported something. Again it is up to you to show evidence of jamming. Not to mention the question as to what kind of jamming could've possibly made any difference at those ranges.

My objection against your reasoning still stands: Even if they would jamm the sensors of the Enterprise during the battle, that doesn't mean, that they have already jammed her sensors in Orbit of Romulus, when Geordi has said, that they can detect nothing coming through Scimitar's cloak and you don't know, what was reported off-screen.

1. [...]
2. [...]
3. Even the third objection assumes passiv optical sensors (or cameras), though we know, that the Enterprise has sensors that don't work like cameras. To jamm them, a (visible) blinding bright light would be useless. We don't know, if she has, beside these sensors, cameras on which they could have fallen back, if their sophisticated sensor system is jammed (with for the human eyes invisible signals).

If the sensors can be jammed at that range while we can still see the torpedoes with our eyes then the sensors are worse then I thought.

If, as I have assumed for the sake of this argument, the sensors are not optical, the fact, that we are able to see the disruptor fire emerging from the cloacking field, is irrelevant.
Then you have to consider, that, if the Scimitar would jam the sensors of the Enterprise, the jamming signal would be stronger because of its nearness to the sensors of the Enterprise. It goes both ways.
And you have to consider, that the battle has happened in the Bassen Rift. The Bassen Rift effects inter alia all long-range communications. Maybe it effects the sensors too.

[...] For the first if shield generator put into a 2m long coffin can be so powerful as to be able to stop a phaser fire then shield generators put on a large starship would make it practically invulnerable to phaser fire. [...]

That's humbug. The shields of a ship, which have to cover far more area, have to be persevering while the shields of a torpedo, which have to cover a very little area, have to be strong for only a few seconds. After that, it would be irrelevant, if the shield generator burns hrough.

[...] For the second if they are afraid of "photonic shockwave" that means they are unable to shoot down the torpedo before it comes to close which brings us back to accuracy. [...]

And to the question, why battles in Star Trek usually are a short range affair, although there is enough evidence for weapons range far higher than 100'000 km [2]. It could be a standard meassure to give the enemy not enough time to target and destroy an incoming torpedo before it is so near, that the photonic shockwave is more dangerous than an impact in the shields.

[Mr. Oragahn]

from "Workforce, Pt. II":

KIM: I can't penetrate their shields.
EMH: Maybe we don't have to. The battle of Vorkado, it's in my tactical database. A Romulan Captain disabled two attacking vessels by creating a photonic shock wave between the ships.
KIM: How'd he do that?
EMH: Watch and learn.

And that's pretty much all we know.

The photonic shockwave seems to do something more than a normal photon torpedo detonation, as indicated by both the plot and the special effects. Otherwise you'd simply detonate a torpedo, rather than do the whole phaser thing to it. And, of course, otherwise Harry wouldn't have had need to explain that he couldn't penetrate their shields. A direct torpedo hit would've done the job better than popping one between them.

(It may even require that two ships be present for the full effect to occur, though this is unclear. It may be something one could do all the time, but the two-ship thing was the reminder for 'Captain Doc'.)

My initial thought was that this retroactively explained Spock's "too late" when a Reliant torpedo was coming in in Star Trek II. Without this, it appears that they thought of shooting at the torpedo, but there simply wasn't the opportunity. With this, the fact that phaser fire could cause a torpedo to get all 'blowed up real good' would be a reason to avoid firing at it if it was too close . . . better to take the hit.

Or shoot it down with something else than phasers.

If the phaser is such a problem, why not use simpler interception systems, as, for example, small missiles, coil guns or lasers, instead of phasers?
Venturing on the terrain of lost tech or useless tech would be a poor excuse, considering the advantage against the rampant use of torpedoes.

So basically, the most effective weapon against Trek ships would be a mere torpedo, equipped with a small phaser gun (it can be very small), which would shoot one burst and initiate the photonic shockwave.
You wouldn't even need to have a powerful phaser, since the torpedo would drop its shields, then the phaser fires.

I'm sure, you are able to prove that claim. I haven't heard of a system, that is able to detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin.

Eyeball Mk I.

Come on, they could even scan for shield impacts, on a cloaked ship.

PICARD: Worf, prepare a full phaser spread, zero elevation. All banks on my mark. Scan for shield impacts and stand by photon torpedoes.

But even if it is possible, do you really think, that the Scimitar would fire, while flying a predictable course, so that the Enterprise could aim ahead?

That's exactly what happened, and the ranges were far from that great.

The most sensible explanation is jamming, but it's not mentionned. Anything else basically sucks.

[l33telboi]

I don't see what the problem with the targeting systems in Nemesis is, because the Sovereign seems to be doing exactly what Kane is suggesting it should do. They're targeting the ship easily enough when they know the general location of it.

Just check the scene where they first search for it by sweeping the area with phasers, immediately after the first hit, all the other phaser blasts impact it easily enough. The torps don't because they are slower, by the time they are where the Scimitar was a second ago, the ship’s already moved. They’re basically reduced to dumb-fire projectiles.

In every other scene where the Scimitar fires, the Sovereign scores nothing but direct hits on it.

The only times the ship is sweeping the area like a blind man is when the Scimitar hasn't fired for a long time, which is rather logical, because these would be the exact times when it would be nigh impossible for the Enterprise to know where it is. The rest of the time the Sovereign is easily enough targeting and hitting it.

I mean for Pete's sake, just count the times the Enterprise misses the Scimitar in the scene, after the Enterprise has realized its general whereabouts (in other words, when the Scimitar is firing or the Enterprise has just hit it). A grand total of six torpedoes miss.

And I shouldn’t have point out the ridiculousness of trying to use a single battle from a single movie out of ten movies and five whole series to try to claim poor accuracy.

[Mike DiCenso]

We've seen where playing the cost-effective angle has gotten real militaries *cough*Falklands*cough*.

That's a good reminder there, Kendall. I recall that after the Falklands, and the apparent effectiveness of anti-ship missles, like the Exocet, the U.S. Navy retrofitted a number of ships with the Phalanx CIWS (a system already under development before the Falklands).

As far as I know, however, the Phalanx, or other similar CIWS systems have yet to be credited with an actual successful defense in combat.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

Or shoot it down with something else than phasers.

If the phaser is such a problem, why not use simpler interception systems, as, for example, small missiles, coil guns or lasers, instead of phasers?
Venturing on the terrain of lost tech or useless tech would be a poor excuse, considering the advantage against the rampant use of torpedoes.

So basically, the most effective weapon against Trek ships would be a mere torpedo, equipped with a small phaser gun (it can be very small), which would shoot one burst and initiate the photonic shockwave.
You wouldn't even need to have a powerful phaser, since the torpedo would drop its shields, then the phaser fires.

1. Something other than a phaser, for example, small missiles, coil guns or lasers, may be not enough to overcome torpedo shields or would even be slower than the phasers or have less accuracy, what would allow a torpedo to come nearer until it can be shot down.
2. And now, we are back to the question, why battles may be often short range affairs although the weapons range is known to be far greater. It would prevent that creates photonic shockwaves, because one would be affected by the photonic shockwave from the own torpedo too.

I'm sure, you are able to prove that claim. I haven't heard of a system, that is able to detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin.

Eyeball Mk I.

Come on, they could even scan for shield impacts, on a cloaked ship.

PICARD: Worf, prepare a full phaser spread, zero elevation. All banks on my mark. Scan for shield impacts and stand by photon torpedoes.

I have given that quote already.

But that is not the point.
Kane Starkiller has claimed, that »today's fire control sensors and computers would be able to easily detect the disruptor bolt's point of origin as Scimitar fires, feed the sensor data into weapons control computers and fire back.«

»Eyeball Mk I« is not the answer to my demand for a proof.

He means, that I should ask the USS Lake Erie.

I have asked him, what exactly I shall ask the USS Lake Erie? Maybe how their missiles are able to follow a cloacked ship or air plane, from which they don't know, where it is? Or how fast they would be able to localize an enemy object, that is only for a split second visible on their radar, direct their missiles, fire a missile and for the missile to reach the position, where the enemy has appeared for a split second?

But even if it is possible, do you really think, that the Scimitar would fire, while flying a predictable course, so that the Enterprise could aim ahead?

That's exactly what happened, and the ranges were far from that great.

The most sensible explanation is jamming, but it's not mentionned. Anything else basically sucks.

From what I have seen in the movie and the scene, to which l33telboi has linked [1], the Scimitar has made evasion manoeuvres every time, she was hit by enemy fire.

And, as l33telboi has already mentioned, the Enterprise has hit her more than not. That means, that, when the Scimitar was indeed not fast enough to change her course, she was effectiv targeted.

Insofar, jamming is not the most sensible explanation. Especially because jamming would give away the own position because the jamming signal, that superimpose every other signal, the sensors would usually detect, would still be there and retraceable. It sould be very simple, to find out, from which direction such a signal is sended.

I don't see what the problem with the targeting systems in Nemesis is, because the Sovereign seems to be doing exactly what Kane is suggesting it should do. They're targeting the ship easily enough when they know the general location of it.

Just check the scene where they first search for it by sweeping the area with phasers, immediately after the first hit, all the other phaser blasts impact it easily enough. The torps don't because they are slower, by the time they are where the Scimitar was a second ago, the ship’s already moved. They’re basically reduced to dumb-fire projectiles.

In every other scene where the Scimitar fires, the Sovereign scores nothing but direct hits on it.

The only times the ship is sweeping the area like a blind man is when the Scimitar hasn't fired for a long time, which is rather logical, because these would be the exact times when it would be nigh impossible for the Enterprise to know where it is. The rest of the time the Sovereign is easily enough targeting and hitting it.

I mean for Pete's sake, just count the times the Enterprise misses the Scimitar in the scene, after the Enterprise has realized its general whereabouts (in other words, when the Scimitar is firing or the Enterprise has just hit it). A grand total of six torpedoes miss.

And I shouldn’t have point out the ridiculousness of trying to use a single battle from a single movie out of ten movies and five whole series to try to claim poor accuracy.

Good objection. As it seems, the targeting system of the Enterprise is not as bad, as Kane Starkiller wants to believe.

[mojo]

I know this adds nothing to the debate, and will gladly accept any consequences for stating this anyway - this thread is why I love this forum. I have been following the argument here with great amusement and interest, and I just want to thank all of you for it. Even though I will likely never have anything interesting to add to any debate that is even quasi-technical, I just want you all to know I'll always be lurking in the background happily considering both sides of whatever is being argued and living for moments like when Who Is Like God Arbour said 'I don't call into question, that disruptors are big shiny glowy bolts', which made me laugh for a good thirty seconds straight. Thanks, guys. Seriously.

[Praeothmin]

Kane:
Agreed, they didn't mention it, and they usually do when it's present, so I will have to conceed that jamming isn't being used.
The problem with using the firing point of origin to retaliate is that the Scimitar is still moving after it fired, and although it is not going "racecar fast", it's still moving fast enough that using human reaction times to fire when you see the glow of their weapons will not necessarily yield automatic hits for the one firing.
And today's systems may be good enough to retaliate by calculating the point of origin of missiles fired, but they are not retaliating on moving targets that are so well cloaked that even the naked eye cannot see them...
In this case, we need to use some king of "In Universe" logic.
When dealing with sensors that can detect the number (and also usually the type) of lifeforms on a planet, I think the fact that they cannot detect attack's points of origin can be attributed to some properties of the fired particles to be detected when leaving a cloaking field.
And since, before they know where the Scimitar is, their visual sensors cannot show them the vessel when it fires, I find it hard to believe that they would automatically be able to visually be able to discern the point of origin of a Plasma bolt and fire at that same point.


W.I.L.G.A:
If the Jamming's efficient, then no, you wouldn't be able to detect the source of the Jamming, because jamming in that case would be simply too stupid to consider.
"Captain, we're cloaked, but they succeed in hitting us sometimes, their sensors are good enough to detect impact hits on shields!
Well then, Jam them!`
But Captain, using the jamming signal will light us up like lights on a Christmas tree and they'll have even less trouble hitting us..."

Since jamming involves disrupting of the sensors so they don't work properly, how the heck would those same sensors pinpoint the point of origin of the jamming signal?????

[l33telboi]

Agreed, they didn't mention it, and they usually do when it's present, so I will have to conceed that jamming isn't being used.

Just a minor point. There's no 'jamming', no. But there is something interfering with at least their sub-space based systems, the nebula itself. And while it didn't seem to distort at least the visible EM-spectrum in any significant way, it may well be that the targeting computers are still effected to some degree.

[Who is like God arbour]

W.I.L.G.A:
If the Jamming's efficient, then no, you wouldn't be able to detect the source of the Jamming, because jamming in that case would be simply too stupid to consider.
"Captain, we're cloaked, but they succeed in hitting us sometimes, their sensors are good enough to detect impact hits on shields!
Well then, Jam them!`
But Captain, using the jamming signal will light us up like lights on a Christmas tree and they'll have even less trouble hitting us..."

Since jamming involves disrupting of the sensors so they don't work properly, how the heck would those same sensors pinpoint the point of origin of the jamming signal?????

Jamming is the emmission of signals, that are supposed to interfere with the operation of a sensor by saturating its receiver with noise or false information. That signal would superimpose other signals, a sensor would pick up or interfere with such signals. But the jamming signal is there nevertheless. The Enterprise has several sensors and should be able to figure out, from which direction it is comming.

Imagine Kane Starkillers example. If someone blinds you with blinding bright light, you wouldn't be able anymore, to see other things. But you would still be able to find out, from which direction that light is coming.

The same happens with jamming signals.

[Praeothmin]

W.I.L.G.A., I don't think "jamming" in this case is as straightforward as that.
I believe it involves sending a bucketload of interfering signals that create noise and echoes, yes, but the source might not be so easily detected.
Think of your eyes as the sensor, and the sensor sweeps being the ripples at the surface of a pond.
someone throws a rock in the pond, and with the ripples, you may pinpoint where the rock was thrown in.
Now imagine someone throwing many rocks in the pond, or splashing in the water while a rock is thrown in.
You won't know where the splashing person is just from looking at the water, nor will you detect the rock...

And using that same kind of analogy, you will not notice the source of the light if the way it blinds you is by being reflected off many reflective surfaces.
All you'll see is blinding light all around.

Just a minor point. There's no 'jamming', no. But there is something interfering with at least their sub-space based systems, the nebula itself. And while it didn't seem to distort at least the visible EM-spectrum in any significant way, it may well be that the targeting computers are still effected to some degree.

Could be...

[Roondar]

W.I.L.G.A., I don't think "jamming" in this case is as straightforward as that.
I believe it involves sending a bucketload of interfering signals that create noise and echoes, yes, but the source might not be so easily detected.
Think of your eyes as the sensor, and the sensor sweeps being the ripples at the surface of a pond.
someone throws a rock in the pond, and with the ripples, you may pinpoint where the rock was thrown in.
Now imagine someone throwing many rocks in the pond, or splashing in the water while a rock is thrown in.
You won't know where the splashing person is just from looking at the water, nor will you detect the rock...

And using that same kind of analogy, you will not notice the source of the light if the way it blinds you is by being reflected off many reflective surfaces.
All you'll see is blinding light all around.

Just a minor point. There's no 'jamming', no. But there is something interfering with at least their sub-space based systems, the nebula itself. And while it didn't seem to distort at least the visible EM-spectrum in any significant way, it may well be that the targeting computers are still effected to some degree.

Could be...

Note that a common modern jamming tactic against enemy radar installations involves 'faking' the location of yourself using digital technology (i.e. to more or less capture and then alter the originating radar waves and send the altered waves back). It's used to make radar guided weapons miss their targets by miscalculating their range.

This form of current day jamming would not appear to be a blinding white light, nor a bunch of static. It in effect would merely cause your missiles guidance system to believe the object they're supposed to hit is somewhere else.

This technique would also be rather effective in say, space to stop, say a photon torpedo hitting your massive and cloaked object ;)

Somewhat more on topic:
Mr. Worf did state in the movie Generations that acquiring a lock on Dr. Sorans missile with the ships phasers would take between 'eight and fifteen seconds' (which was due to him not knowing the point of origin apparently). Maybe hitting a fast moving 2m target is just too inefficient to bother?*

*) As in spending phaser power on it would become so much of a drain that relying on shields is actually more cost effective?

Secondly, just how easy are photon torpedoes forced into detonation?
We have several episodes and movies in which they do not directly explode after hitting obstacles.

[Mike DiCenso]

Secondly, just how easy are photon torpedoes forced into detonation?
We have several episodes and movies in which they do not directly explode after hitting obstacles.

Good question.

Does anyone have video of the VOY episode to see how long it takes the phaser hit to cause the torpedo to dedonate in this "photonic shockwave" thing?
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

W.I.L.G.A., I don't think "jamming" in this case is as straightforward as that.
I believe it involves sending a bucketload of interfering signals that create noise and echoes, yes, but the source might not be so easily detected.
Think of your eyes as the sensor, and the sensor sweeps being the ripples at the surface of a pond.
someone throws a rock in the pond, and with the ripples, you may pinpoint where the rock was thrown in.
Now imagine someone throwing many rocks in the pond, or splashing in the water while a rock is thrown in.
You won't know where the splashing person is just from looking at the water, nor will you detect the rock...

And using that same kind of analogy, you will not notice the source of the light if the way it blinds you is by being reflected off many reflective surfaces.
All you'll see is blinding light all around.

No, your example is - as far as I can see it - faulty.

Unlike on Earth, space is relativ empty. There is not much, from where a jamming signal, as you imagine it, can be reflected. If the Scimitar would not direct her jamming signal to the sensors of the Enterprise but into the surrounding, there is not much, what could reflect the signal back to the Enterprise, so that her sensors would be unable to pick up other, inartificial signals.

And even if we would assume, that the Rift, in which the battle has happened, would reflect the jamming signal in the way, you are descibing it, the Enterprise would still cast a shadow to the opposite side of the Scimitar as the source of the jamming signal. The sensors on that side would still detect, what there is and they would know, that the Scimitar has to be on the other side.

Only if you imagine the rift as a closed space, in which such a jamming signal is reflected from one side to the other side until it hits the sensors of the Enterprise, it would be possible, to blend all sensors equally at the same time.

Note that a common modern jamming tactic against enemy radar installations involves 'faking' the location of yourself using digital technology (i.e. to more or less capture and then alter the originating radar waves and send the altered waves back). It's used to make radar guided weapons miss their targets by miscalculating their range.

This form of current day jamming would not appear to be a blinding white light, nor a bunch of static. It in effect would merely cause your missiles guidance system to believe the object they're supposed to hit is somewhere else.

This technique would also be rather effective in say, space to stop, say a photon torpedo hitting your massive and cloaked object ;)

That entirely depends on the kind of sensors.

RADAR is an active sensor system. It emits a signal, that is reflected and the detection of the reflection allows to calculate distance and direction of the reflecting object. If, as you say, the original signal is absorbed or canceled out through interference and a signal is sended delayed, that pretend to be the reflection, the calculation would result in a wrong distance - but not in a wrong direction because it is impossible to send the faked reflection from somewhere else than the position of the transmitter.

But if there are passive sensors, that wouldn't work.
Correct is, that such sensors could be blinded.
But there is no reflected sensor signal, that such sensors are picking up. They pick up the inartificial emissions, each object is emiting naturally, for example EM- or subspace radiation, magnetism or gravitation, or reflections of natural radiation from other radiant objects, that is reflected from the hull of the Scimitar to the sensors of the Enterprise, wouldn't such emissionen be blocked or bended around the Scimitar by her cloacking field.

It is the same with eyes. We don't emit light to be able to see objects (unless it is dark and we use a light source). We see the light, the objects are emiting naturally (if the object emits light) or the reflection of light, that is originally coming from other, light emiting sources.

• To prevent that, there are only two possibilities:
  1. Blend the eyes, so that they are unable to see anything. That can be done directly or indirectly. Directly by directing the blending light in the eyes and indirectly be illuminating all objects so strong, that the from them reflected light is blending the eyes.
  2. Prevent, that the object emits or reflect light.

Secondly, just how easy are photon torpedoes forced into detonation?
We have several episodes and movies in which they do not directly explode after hitting obstacles.

Good question.

Does anyone have video of the VOY episode to see how long it takes the phaser hit to cause the torpedo to dedonate in this "photonic shockwave" thing?
-Mike

That would be irrelevant, because, if the torpedo is usually shielded, an enemy, who is unable to order the torpedo to drop the shields remotely or doesn't know the modulation of the shield, would need much more time, than the Voyager has needed - assuming, that they have exploited one of these possibilities.