Re: Planetary Defenses in Star Trek
Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:38 am
How so? "Your" suggestion is like a copycat of what I wrote, only reworded to look new, including the concept of a shield overload which has always been at the center of the theory I defended since the beginning.2046 wrote:I don't have to provide anything "contrary" when you plagiarized me.
Actually you do when your claim is that I am now making your same argument (or now "plagiarizing", because you want to escalate the stupid) and I point out that you're wrong in that claim again.
It's your responsibility to correctly read people's posts, not mine.
What is that "something" I need to demonstrate. All I presented is a theory that allows the audience to perceive irrationnal actions and statements as rationnal ones.You need to demonstrate something, not just claim it and post a lot of text that does nothing to aid you in your goal.
Then, again, that's nothing new.
Ah, you mean those I quoted verbatim proving you were lying through your teeth? I really wonder how you'll get out of that.All you are doing here is trying to reimagine your posts
Mine. :)... to follow my suggestion
You probably keep thinking that coming up with the idea of shooting at a weak spot on the far side of the shield suddenly solves Scott's apparent complete lack of minimal competence for a prolongated time beforehand; or, in other words, that his very late idea regarding the exploitation of a weak spot "undumbed" his previous him (and anyone around him).... which was in opposition to your dumb characters (and alien/unique Elba shield) nonsense, precisely as I predicted you would.
See, it's not without a reason that I pointed out that a lot of time went on before Scott complained even a second time about their inability to get through the shield without killing the people (and I said something along the lines of a full quarter of an episode iirc), until he suddenly thought about shooting at the distant weak spot.
The dumb thing simply being that a man qualified like him, and just like anyone around him at that moment in fact, didn't think for all that considerably long time about the simplest thing to try if they were worried about hiting the dome; that simple idea being to try shooting at the shield without having the asylum being in gunsight too. Hence my theory that they didn't suggest that because they knew that shooting here or 20 km away wouldn't change a thing, since the problem wasn't that they'd risk punching through the shield and hit the dome, but that the shield itself was a liability to the people in the asylum because of a certain risk of overload.
That is, shooting at a spot in Wisconsin where the asylum was, or Alabama, Alaska or Puerto Rico wouldn't change a thing to the problem at hand.
This is the rationalization that undumbs them, see?
I don't blame Scott for not quickly coming up with the idea of shooting at the weak spot. I blame him for simply not having the very, very simple idea of trying to shoot at another spot to avoid hitting the asylum in the case they'd punch through. And McCoy's concerns are all the more stupid without a proper rationalization.
It's already very elementary.
The argument is simple. Regardless of any other argumentation about it, this shield is unique, never seen anywhere else within the UFP. That alone should bury your claim of some ubiquitousness regarding the UFP's so called planetary shielding tech.The general premise you aim for is that the Elba shield is different/strange or weak/useless and, by either or both, not applicable to other worlds at all. You argue this via the assorted nonsense discussed and any other shade or mud you can desperately grasp for.
On top of that, I don't need to challenge that the UFP have plenty of planetary shields: it's already challenged on its own. There's enough indirect evidence of that, in the form of a particularly conspicuous absence of evidence of their existence that you are yet to acknowledge.
Oh, then please tell me what is so nonsensical about my suggestion that the shield itself was the problem? What is so absurd about my suggestion that an overloaded shield would result in the destruction of the generator and kill the people? Thus that it didn't matter where you tried to shoot at the shield (unless you could find a spot where you may apply less firepower)? What is so silly about the idea that the shield worked under severe stress only by the fact of being stretched to cover such a vast area when it's not supposed to?My premise is that the shield is normal and fine for its purpose, and while it can be penetrated with bad results of unspecified cause, perhaps unique to Elba thanks to the poison and dome, your nonsense arguments are still nonsense.
It's nothing ridiculous nor far fetched. It also relies on a rather well known SF trope, the system that is overtaxed beyond the recommended parameters.
Note: like any system, there obviously are margins of safety, some of tolerance and then critical thresholds one shouldn't reach or trespass.
As for your position, it is as awkward as it is problematic:
"and while it can be penetrated with bad results of unspecified cause": sure, but we needn't add unnecessary parameters either to a simple problem: Punch through shield people die. The hypothesis that adds the less will be the best. What could be the probable "unspecified cause" resulting from parameters such as: a starship shooting at a shield, the risk of killing people in a super solid dome if trying to punch through said shield, and the system that generates the shield? With all the elements we have and without adding other parameters, the shielding is the likeliest culprit.
In fact, why would there be such a problem to begin with if it were "normal and fine"? That premise you recently adopted and described just above isn't even internally consistent!
Really, what a terrible shielding system. For example, if we were to look at the systems used to protect ships, I'd have to ask since when do ships automatically kill all their crew as soon as shields get overwhelmed by enemy firepower, not because of the enemy's weapon blasting through the naked ship, but because of an effect triggered by the simple use of the shielding system alone?
Random Trek episode: "[UFP ship bridge] WORF: Sir, we lost our shi–" KABOOM!! _end of episode and the entire series.
There would certainly be nothing normal and fine in that!
"perhaps unique to Elba thanks to the poison and dome": what? how so? These parameters (poison and dome) don't even begin to contribute to the risk, that "unspecified cause" you mention. The poisonous atmosphere isn't a problem until you crack the dome, either from the inside or the outside. As for said dome, as we know, it is very sturdy and has withstood a nearby strong nuclear blast without noticeable consequences so unless the E-C dropped biggatons directly on it, there would be no problem to be found there either; it is a reliable structure.
What is interesting is that despite most of your time spent deriding my work and observations, you finally admited, through your described premise, that there's actually enough room for theories because there clearly are things the characters take for granted which remain hidden to the audience. For instance, as you said, the "unspecified cause" that would kill the people in the asylum if the shield would get exposed to such firepower as to be pierced. And as you discovered when you read the transcript much earlier on, the fact that Scott and McCoy already knew that the shuttle they may have sent through the force field couldn't fly... is another piece of knowledge they held, just like that, without any explanation. The fact that there's a hidden context solidifies the legitimacy of the theory I provided, one that allowed me to produce a rationalization of this mess.
I don't force you to accept it, but I simply don't agree that there's no problem in character behaviour if we limit ourselves only to what we can read in the transcript.
What are you talking about?the stupid behaviour was noted for two other things
Oopsies. You forgot you were trying not to argue dumb characters, here?
I am expecting an original suggestion, not thievery. As for "ages ago", you mean 1/3 of this page I presume...So what is it? What other than bleedthrough could possibly worry Scott so much that if they shot at the force field and put a hole through it, it would kill people in the asylum?
I thought you were the one saying that I wasn't reading your posts. Oy. Did you seriously miss the whole concept of generator overload? I described it as a pressure cooker in the dome ages ago.
You're adding extra parameters that are not mentionned and I don't see how they're useful or even better than the ones I use and which are already provided by the show.Bleedthrough damage and generator overload are two possibilities, though those aren't the only ones. For all we know the mere power drain could cause issues with environmental controls, or whatever.
The ironical part is that even your rather vague and curious suggestion about dangerous environmental factors conforms with the shield system being a problem the moment it's being fired at by a high profile UFP starship. This –again– completely flies in the face of your claim that this system was "normal and fine." Obviously, it is not. Make up your mind.
Be my guest. :)We are not told the mechanism of death so must conjecture, but that doesn't mean we get to just make stuff up and assume characters are stupid for not following it, as you do. Be reasonable, for a change. You'll start agreeing with me a lot more.
It wouldn't be so funny if you hadn't recently decided that your position, your premise, is also based on the idea that shooting anywhere at the shield with considerable firepower would be the reason why the lives of people located in the dome would be lethally endangered.
You're being confused. I guess that's the side effect of stealing ideas and claiming them as yours, you lose track of what you stood for.
How clever!Now –and you're going to hate me for that– this fact would actually turn out to reinforce my point
LOL . . . thanks for demonstrating the talking-out-both-sides-of-your-mouth thing.
You focus on throwing another ad hominem instead of actually just replying to the whole sentence, with the part about Voyager being a science vessel not making the Mawasi's and Nihydron's cases any better regarding their shielding.
Nevermind, at this point I don't expect anything better from you than these deplorable manners.
What is that? Two, three lies in such a single sentence? Not particularly good ones either.Fact remains that the complete protection of a planet is totally unnecessary, proved by the very episode.
Incorrect. I have demonstrated that your spot-protection concept won't have any effect based on examples from the episode that you haven't seen and pretend not to understand.
First of all, you didn't demonstrate anything. You haven't begun trying to counter what I said. You just make empty claims and that's about it.
Secondly, you have not provided a single example showing me wrong regarding the sufficiency of limited-area protection, simply because the only examples you could pick are the one involving Voyager not being affected by the wake and managing to withstand direction exposure to the beam for some time, both showing that as long as a temporally upgraded shielding system works, assets and people inside that protected volume don't get erased from space-time. Period.
Finally, I didn't pretend anything along the lines of not understanding the episode. Quit seeing malice everywhere.
So, now.
Care to prove how acres of forest, some desert, a sea or an ocean being hit by the temporal weapon will affect temporally shielded assets, especially in any negative way?
Care to show why protecting the people and artificial assets, not random natural elements, wouldn't be enough?
For the reminder and to borrow your words, we're talking about the "spot-protection" concept here and what would exactly need to be protected versus what could be left exposed, not the merits of the shielding technology's chances to defeat the TWS' beam, which is another topic I also covered (the one which we see you handwave in point 1 a few lines below).
Even when I rightfully accused you of trolling, I addressed all your points and didn't hide behind this accusation to snipe entire sections of yours posts.Now, your little formating choice is interesting but it's just a way for you to avoid replying to points I make.
Maybe if you weren't just trolling I might spend more time.
Sorry but it's a rationnal point to make unless the shield technologies, from ship to limited ground area to planetary coverage, fundamentally change solely based on the size of what has to be protected. It's at least a very good what if. That is, what if the planetary shield was more or less just a bigger shielding system than what is found on a ship or used to protect limited zones? It's not definitive but it demonstrates that would the technology more or less simply scale up, we shouldn't expect miracles at all.I am still waiting for your counter-argumentation or an answer on:
1. Request irrational. I might as well discuss with you how many electrons via copper conductor it takes to kill a man. That's not how it works.
You don't address that because I suspect you know that your point requires that aliens, with subpar shielding tech and limited resources, should yet have, contrary to all expectations, sturdy planetary shields capable of tanking the temporal beam and therefore would prove capable of surviving the effects of a temporal incursion.
All of this when we don't even have enough evidence to know if Chakotay was telling the truth or was even correct, hardly making his statement a reliable source.
Also, if Chakotay was thinking of planetary shields (when he said "they" could protect their planets), the aforementionned parameters (shitty shield tech and scarce military resources) would tend to show that he was bluffing too since the aliens would never be able to effectively protect their home worlds despite the augmentations.
All in all, the case for planetary shields is rather weak in that episode.
There is a problem, surely. It's probably a contradiction.2. Nonsensical. The Krenim temporal weapon-ship altered things across thousands of parsecs, and presumably even beyond. The wake is the trigger for the change as observed. Your calculations are faulty due to incorrect premises.
The temporal wake's speed is caped because of Annorax's very words. And as I said, I didn't grasp the low hanging fruit by using visuals, which would really put a quick end to your position (and I recognize that it is problematic in regards to the episode's self consistency).
But I can try to provide a new high end figure that would bridge both elements and therefore allow for some reconciliation.
Not exactly super convincing but it avoids rejecting some parts of the script.
Assuming that the action that takes place on the bridge of Voyager resumes quickly after the temporal incursion against the Garenor home world...
Assuming a slower FTL speed in system (perhaps gravity slows it down) and a sudden acceleration outside of it after a short timeframe (all for the sake of Annorax and Obrist not being moron who don't know how their toy works), let's say the wake took a small time to cross the system Obrist was ordered to monitor. It's not an elegant solution but it allows for the conservation of more script material.YoH transcript wrote: [Krenim Timeship - Bridge]
OBRIST: We are within range of the Garenor homeworld.
ANNORAX: Set temporal coordinates. Full power to the weapon. Prepare for total erasure of the species.
OBRIST: Targeting the focal point. Ready.
ANNORAX: Fire.
(The ray spreads around the planet then off into space.)
OBRIST: Temporal incursion in progress.
ANNORAX: Trace elements?
OBRIST: Diminishing.
ANNORAX: Counter indications?
OBRIST: None so far. Organisms and structures are being eradicated.
ANNORAX: Track the temporal wavefront as it passes through the system. I want to monitor every change in the timeline as it occurs.
OBRIST: Yes, sir.
[Bridge]
TUVOK: Captain, the Krenim warship is in pursuit, but their weapons are not powered.
JANEWAY: They don't know what to do with us now that we're shielded against their torpedoes.
KIM: Captain, there's some kind of spatial distortion heading toward us. Sensor readings are erratic. I can't identify the phenomenon.21
CHAKOTAY: What's the source?
KIM: Unknown. But it originated approximately twenty light years from our position. It looks like a shockwave in the fabric of space-time.47
JANEWAY: Tom, get us out of here.
PARIS: We'll never outrun it, Captain.59
JANEWAY: Maybe our new shields will help. All hands, brace for impact.70
TUVOK: You were correct, Captain. The temporal shielding has protected us. The wave front has passed.
The wake is already moving after the impact, so we have to account for that before the wake quits the system. That would be 18 words after impact, 42 words total after Obrist replies.
I use the same ratio as before to obtain a duration: 3 words per second.
42 / 3 = 14 seconds.
I count 70 words since Kim began noticing the weirdness. With the usual rate of 3 words per second, plus the original intra-system duration, that's a total of 37.333(...) seconds to cover 20 LY.
So the speed is:
S = 20 / 37.333(...)
S = 0.5357 LY/s
It would cover 46,285.7 LY within a day.
The Krenim empire spanned 16,300 LY (5,000 parsecs).
Assuming a perfect disk, it would cover the full diameter within 0.35216 days, or almost eight and a half hours.
Ignoring visuals, assuming a wake about to leave the system when Annorax orders Obrist to track it as it passes through said system, and assuming an incredible acceleration once out-system, we could conclude that as far as the Ram Izad case goes, Voyager was hit by the wake but most likely did so whilst being shielded. In this case, we can consider that the calculations were changed to compensate for Voyager since the restauration was very good this time.
If Annorax and Obrist would do the same about Mawasi and Nihydron temporally shielded assets, the effects wouldn't veer off from what was calculated, unless this compensation can only be done on the basis of a former collection of data as it happened with Voyager. Or Annorax will assume that their targets may be temporally shielded now.
On a sidenote, the Krenim TWS took around three days to cover 20 LY.
Their warp 6 would be around 2,435 c.
No, you made the claim it was relevant and used it as a counter-argument, so you provide the evidence or retract. A vague reference doesn't count.3. Go watch some Star Trek. I don't have to educate you on how to debate my point. Two ships were sent to stop a genocide and resulting interstellar war. This is basic to the movie. If you have a counterargument, make it. Otherwise, shut your trap.
I expect, at the very least, a properly commented transcript.
Already answered? When exactly? Secondly, I don't see how I could admit that you had answered it since I've repeatedly been asking for you to clarify your point.4. Already answered, as you have already admitted.
Remember:
How am I not supposed to think you were claiming ecumenopolises for these aliens when you say "a space civilization doesn't exactly have rural areas"? Or, as I said, I may have misunderstood your point.You wrote: Oh, and "nations/territories" is correct, because while cities = planets, a space civilization doesn't exactly have rural areas.
Hence my requests. You've been throwing accusations over several posts instead of spending your time more productively to detail your thoughts.
Anyways, just forget about it. I'm not going to waste my time any longer on that thing.
What remains is that for Chakotay's second line, we must assume that "they" meant the Mawasi and Nihydron, which remains inconclusive as to whether they'd use theater shields or planetary ones.
Sure way for sullying a thread I guess.In any case, the only reason I am replying at this point is just to mock and embarrass you. I really shouldn't do that, though, because it is just feeding the troll with the attention you crave.