List of expanded universe sources incompatible with ICS

[Mike DiCenso]

somebody needs to ban that, because it obviously is not me. Is there any way, Mike, to track who is behind these random sock puppets flaming me? IP tracking?

The sock puppet has been banned, and JMS has been informed. Only he can look up an IP address.
-Mike

[mojo]

somebody needs to ban that, because it obviously is not me. Is there any way, Mike, to track who is behind these random sock puppets flaming me? IP tracking?

The sock puppet has been banned, and JMS has been informed. Only he can look up an IP address.
-Mike

SERIOUSLY?! i'll save jms some trouble. it was ME! and again i can't believe there was any doubt! i just did this same prank like a month or two ago!

[General Donner]

More on topic with the thread, why is Star by Star a contradicted source? The chief of state strapped a suicidal bomb to his chest, small enough to pass off as a communications device, and when detonated, it was visible from orbit and the fireball radius was a full kilometer.

That's about equal to a 10 megaton bomb...and it was small enough to fit on somebody's chest!

If the bomb was a foot by half a foot by an inch (very reasonably fitting on a chest), the idea of multi gigaton level heavy photon torpedos and concussion missiles isn't that crazy when scaled.

As per Einstein's mass-energy equivalence 1 kg of mass equals roughly 8.99x10^16 joules worth of energy.

Further, 1 megaton=4.18x10^15 joules.

Assuming a matter/antimatter bomb with unreasonably high but theoretically possible efficiency, a ten-megaton bomb should weigh about a kilo or so at standard gravity. With metal-like density this should be something you can easily carry in your pocket, provided the seams hold up..

Of course, thermal detonators generally use "baradium fusion" and other kinds of technobabble reactions, which makes the maths iffier, but nothing about this requires conservation of energy to be violated.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I updated the front post, at long last.

What should be clear from reading it - there are several dozen entries now - is that these incidents aren't outliers and they come in clear identifiable classes. There are two particularly large classes:

First, if the effects of a weapon are described in explicit terms in the course of a dramatic narration, or illustrated with a picture, they're typically going to be much too low yield for the ICS.

Second, in nearly any source in which snubfighters play a prominent role - this is a major subgenre of the Star Wars EU franchise - small craft will be shown as very credible threats to capital ships.

These themes are both repeated heavily in TCW, which is not surprising, since the movie VFX generally don't line up with ICS firepower figures, and it's the movies themselves which choose to play up snubfighters as credible threats.

[Trinoya]

Have we added the images of the guns on the acclamators actually not existing at all (thereby nullifying them and everything said about them from the 'verse)? I know we had a thread not too far back where it was gone over rather at length, with numerous good res pictures of there being no guns at all and I feel that would be very relevant in an anti-ICS thread.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Then there must be some place for the Black Ice RPG supplement (here). It gives a fuel density at around 1 kg/m^3, it's some explosive liquid, and there's a class of boarding ships, the Spiral-class Assault Ship, that is used to smash into hulls and by my calcs, even the most generous parameters pushed to their most ludicrous ends would only some 65ish kilotons of KE upon impact, capable of piercing warship hulls. It can pierce shields beforehand for a fraction of a second, with a shaped proton charge.
The nose of the craft is made of sublimating tekonite that vaporizes on contact to absorb the shock, and may at the same time act like a shaped HEAT charge of some kind.

There's the passage from the The Empire Strikes Back novelization that says that the Millennium Falcon would have been seriously damaged by the bazooka-looking heavy blaster mounted on a tripod, seen when Solo and co try to leave Echo Base here).
I didn't find it in the list.

Star Wars Technical Journal #2 provides a rare explicit yield figure which can't fit with the ICS - kiloton protons.

It's actually in the third issue of the magazine. It gives a X-wing a hull composed of "titanium alloy". Same for the A-wing. The Y-wing has a "titanium reinforced alusteel alloy hull".
The X-wing has two PT launchers, three torps each, each at a yield of "just under one kiloton".
The Corellian Corvette is also given a Solar Ionization Reactor.

[Picard]

Have we added the images of the guns on the acclamators actually not existing at all (thereby nullifying them and everything said about them from the 'verse)? I know we had a thread not too far back where it was gone over rather at length, with numerous good res pictures of there being no guns at all and I feel that would be very relevant in an anti-ICS thread.

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/10/i ... acies.html

I believe it were these pictures (I used them on blog):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... rets-1.gif

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... ements.gif

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... bola-2.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... ft_off.jpg

And I found these two:
http://www.modelermagic.com/wordpress/w ... OR-002.jpg

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... amator.jpg

[StarWarsStarTrek]

I updated the front post, at long last.

What should be clear from reading it - there are several dozen entries now - is that these incidents aren't outliers and they come in clear identifiable classes. There are two particularly large classes:

First, if the effects of a weapon are described in explicit terms in the course of a dramatic narration, or illustrated with a picture, they're typically going to be much too low yield for the ICS.

Rarely is this shown. They fall under:

A random comic book showing hilariously sub kiloton turbolasers, only to show a pan shot from outer space showing the shots visible from orbit.

Some idiot author making a sub kiloton showing of a turbolaser, but in the same book or the next one describes ISD's or other ships as performing feats that quite blatantly require enormous amounts of energy to perform.

Second, in nearly any source in which snubfighters play a prominent role - this is a major subgenre of the Star Wars EU franchise - small craft will be shown as very credible threats to capital ships.

With heavy, capital ship busting photon torpedos, yes, they can be a threat. But TPM and ROTJ show that without these, starfighters are helpless against capital ships.

These themes are both repeated heavily in TCW, which is not surprising, since the movie VFX generally don't line up with ICS firepower figures,

In order for a TCW showing to be admissible as evidence and support a low end yield for turbolasers:

1. They must be in a situation where a high yield weapon is an intelligent thing to do

2. The yield depicted must meet the minimal requirement for the asteroid vaping scene and the "vaporize a small town" quote; triple digit kilotons.

3. They must have the means to use medium/heavy turbolasers

So far, few of TCW examples match these, especially not 2. Any sub kiloton turbolasers are either dialed down or otherwise directly contradicted by G canon evidence.

and it's the movies themselves which choose to play up snubfighters as credible threats.

No it's not. The Naboo starfighter fleet did jack all against the trade federation battleship, essentially a converted merchant ship, until Anakin got lucky/help from the Force. Ackbar states that if their shields are disabled, their starfighters might be able to damage the ISD's. A Rebel pilot is incredulous about two X wings facing off against a star destroyer.

[Picard]

Funny how you can get facts right when it suits you.

[Admiral Breetai]

so..when are you guys gonna warn him again?

or are you all too afraid of letting them add up and banning only to have JMS come in here and sesame street the forum again?

[Praeothmin]

In order for a TCW showing to be admissible as evidence and support a low end yield for turbolasers:

1. They must be in a situation where a high yield weapon is an intelligent thing to do

2. The yield depicted must meet the minimal requirement for the asteroid vaping scene and the "vaporize a small town" quote; triple digit kilotons.

3. They must have the means to use medium/heavy turbolasers

So far, few of TCW examples match these, especially not 2. Any sub kiloton turbolasers are either dialed down or otherwise directly contradicted by G canon evidence.

Since when do you get to decide what is and what isn'T acceptable?
You work for Lucasfilms now?

[Picard]

He works for WankFilm.

Besides, Dark Force Rising also contradicts hull strengths - seeing as how lightsaber can cut throught hull of Dreadnought calss heavy cruiser - and maybe few other things. I'll try to download it from somewhere.

[Admiral Breetai]

boy I really don't want to have to make this post again as I'm failry sure it will get ignored..by every one like it did the last three times but *takes breath* here goes

The ICS is non canon for one reason that completely trumps all others. The Films do not support that level of fire power speed or anything at all

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZXcWV0S7fo

in the battle of naboo we have starfighters supposedly able to shoot and withstand multiple megaton (or was it kiloton) either way nuclear level fire power yet a random tank firing off a clearly sub KT shot knocks one out of the sky..later on in the battle anakin gets walled up inside the Droid command ship and is basically in danger of having his ship being gunned down by droids until he raises shields (oh and this is the only instance of shields on a fighter..at no point during any of the other film series is this shown)

within the ship he fires off his lasers this again is supposed to be high yield fire power yet we see no fire balls or anything nuke like hell the droids go down like they would against normal blaster power (some have argued this was because Anakin powered down the weapons...right that never happened on screen so..no dice)

then he proceeds to fire off ANTI CAPITAL SHIP MISSILES..inside the vessel this should be by ICS standards enough to produce what a Tsar bomb type effect at minimum? far worse at max yet it basically..causes the same effect..a regular ol'bazooka or RPG could of caused.

now then onto the next battle slave 1 and its supposed megaton was it? fire power? Obi-wan ship a fighter much like anakins gets hit..all we see when he lands is a hole in the armor...ep 1 very clearly establishes that if such fire power had smashed his fighter..there wouldn't be enough remains for a tiny pocket sized coffin

this is further backed up by ANH when we clearly see the same fire power that's anti fighter fail to blow R2D2's little head off yet if it was high sub kt to low mt..it'd of vaporized the little fuck..and taken lukes entire body and cock pit out with it.

it takes these fighters something like..a full minute to clear the DS trench yet their supposed to be able to fight cap ships that can travel in light seconds? yeah..clearly that's consistent.

and then theres this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmG4OI2stB0

ships clearly trading broad side blows like old sailing ships turbo lasers smashing into armor and causing small fires and not massive nuclear gt/tt death we have multiple instances of vessels (the capital ship of the CIS fleet included) needing to broad side point fucking blank to maximize the accuracy of the shots...we have an actual TL bolt later on in the battle smash into an open gun port on Grevious ship strike ammo and cause..what amounts to minor deck loss and engine damage. if this had been GT or PT or what ever going off inside atmosphere like this I'm pretty sure the vessel would be cosmic ash...split open from the inside and free floating space trash

now onto Endor.

again we see no..such hundreds of KMS or light seconds or light minutes or what ever else Mister Saxton asspulled when given permission to author wank..no we see near gigaton fire power, no what we see are vessels that are completely unable to open fire until they are virtually right ontop of each other...we see fighters scoring multiple hits on cap ships that cause explosions..we see Akbar order the fleet into point blank range

hell in the battle a star destroyer is blasted apart by fighters!! this thing visibly breaks into sections due to fighters who's fiire power is more consistent with tanks and heavy blasters then mini nukes sweet jesus

and of course we have..the tv series while not as critical as the movies is certainly a higher canon then anything else in the EU...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y34tzS2S7XU&feature=fvsr

fighters engaging at ranges cap ships should easily be able to by ICS standards yet..cannot..and are forced into basically firing flack like some WW2 era cruiser in an desperate attempt to matter in the battle at all

the best part comes when ICS rated fire power should of clearly vaporized a storm trooper yet all he is killed knocked forward and his ship's cockpit fragged..there's no such fire power what so ever..then we have a ship a venator damaged by fighters ramming her and shooting at her and some cap ship tl bolts (which by the way fail to one shot fighters at various points through out the clone wars) ram one of the nemoidian cruisers..and boom..you'd think an ICS rated ship would have no problems no selling that

oh then we have a group of CIS ships open fire maybe a few hundred meters out on a venator..the fire power is damaging the ship to where explosions are happening (obvious hull breaches are obvious) pitifully not GT fire power...of course and oh look..a FIGHTER WING DESTROYS CAP SHIPS...which is something SWST has been disputing is possible at all yet it happens in canon clearly more valid then the ICS

all through out the TCW battle the films are not contradicted they mesh up with everything that transpired in the films themselves and none of it..from the highest possible canon and a supplement of secondary canon...none of it NONE OF IT..support the ICS

I'll be addressng force powers either in another thread or in my next post..which ever the mods..prefer

but this is getting crazy I just spent five minutes on youtube and twenty minutes writing up this post..and I found more then enough primary canon evidence to toss out any fire power and speed and range figures...in this book

[StarWarsStarTrek]

In order for a TCW showing to be admissible as evidence and support a low end yield for turbolasers:

1. They must be in a situation where a high yield weapon is an intelligent thing to do

2. The yield depicted must meet the minimal requirement for the asteroid vaping scene and the "vaporize a small town" quote; triple digit kilotons.

3. They must have the means to use medium/heavy turbolasers

So far, few of TCW examples match these, especially not 2. Any sub kiloton turbolasers are either dialed down or otherwise directly contradicted by G canon evidence.

Since when do you get to decide what is and what isn'T acceptable?
You work for Lucasfilms now?

Appeal to ignorance. I do not have to work at lucasarts to point out that a TCW example must not contradict G canon.

Breentai, skimming your post, it actually looks like it has intelligent comments. I will respond to it, but please retain this trend of debating the arguments instead of accusing my personality.

[Admiral Breetai]

Appeal to ignorance. I do not have to work at lucasarts to point out that a TCW example must not contradict G canon.]

only it actually does not contradict primary canon where as the ICS absolutely does

Breentai, skimming your post, it actually looks like it has intelligent comments. I will respond to it, but please retain this trend of debating the arguments instead of accusing my personality.

seeing as you've done nothing but insult my intelligence..you'll get better then you give