Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

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Lucky
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Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Lucky » Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:55 am

Is Base Delta Zero actually the same order as Star Trek's General Order 24? I have shown in this thread that G24 is in fact the order for a Federation Star Ship to through some means commit genocide: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=2321

Let us look at descriptions of Base Delta Zero, and seemingly related quotes from the same sources.
Imperial Sourcebook wrote: "The Imperial Star Destroyer has enough firepower to reduce a civilized world to slag."
This quote is meaningless. Earth like Planets naturally come with the surface covered in slag because of what they are made of, and how they form. Just look out a window, and you will see almost nothing but slag. You can't slag a planet, or turn a planet to slag.

slag |slag|

noun

1 stony waste matter separated from metals during the smelting or refining of ore.


^_^One could use this quote to argue for no weapons on Star Destroyers.^_^
Imperial Sourcebook wrote: "System bombards are used when the Empire would rather completely destroy a world rather than see it fall into Rebel hands."
Base Delta Zero is a scorched earth tactic. A scorched earth tactic is done to deny the enemy resources, and that means that survivors can easily be expected. The targets are mostly infrastructure. In some cases a few sticks of TNT would be more fire power then you need, and a BDZ certainly does not require killing everything on the planet.
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While stopping escaping ships may be possible it is far from required. Ships leaving to tell the tail of what the Empire did would be an added bonus.
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This quote would suggest that the targeted planet would have little to no defenses after all the fighting. A planet that has just rebelled would have likely had all of it's defenses damaged or destroyed in the battle.

Imperial Sourcebook wrote: "System bombard contains an average of 100 ships divided between three bombard squadrons and a light squadron. If an admiral feels that force superiority has done less than a thorough job of removing hostile craft from the system, a system bombard squadron will be augmented with ships from the light squadron."
Even if we assume the Empire would care enough to blockade the system that still leaves 99 ships to blast the planet as it is shown to only take one ship to form an effective blockade.
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A Base Delta Zero is only performed after enemy defenses have been driven from the system, but if there are still defenses in the system even more ships then the fleet of 100 will be sent.
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No time frame is given, but there is no reason to rush since there is no one to appose the BDZ.
Star Wars Adventure Journal wrote: "Base Delta Zero is the Imperial code order to destroy all population centres and resources, including industry, natural resources and cities. All other Imperial codes are subject to change, as you well know, but this code is always the same to prevent any confusion when the order is given. Base Delta Zero is rarely issued. ...."
Again, a Base Delta Zero is a scorched earth tactic.
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We know that the Death Star did not destroy all of the resources on Alderran, but we also know the Death Star had a firepower greater then half the fleet. Clearly the word destroy refers to far less then anything the Death Stars could do. It would seem that all that would be required is damaging mines, burning crops, putting craters in farm land, and damaging harbors.
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Cities and population centers would indicate that you only target areas where there are large groups of people together. Clearly there can easily be survivors as the order is not to kill everyone.
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No time frame is given.
Hutt Gambit wrote: Han tensed, but made himself stay calm. He could tell Greelanx was
really tempted. "Sir, what are your orders?" he asked. "Perhaps we
can think of something that will benefit us both, and yet leave you
free of any charge of wrongdoing."

Greelanx laughed bitterly, a short, bitten-off laugh. "Hardly, young
man.

My orders are to enter the Hutt system, execute order Base Delta Zero
upon the Smuggler's Moon, Nar Shaddaa, and then blockade Nal Hutta and
Nar Hekka until the Hutts agree to allow full customs inspections and a
complete military presence on their worlds. The Moff doesn't want to
cripple the Hutts too badly, but he wants Nar Shaddaa reduced to
rubble."

Han swallowed, his mouth dry. Base Delta Zero was an order that called
for the decimation of a world--all life, all vessels, all systems--even
droids were to be captured or destroyed. His worse nightmare come
true.
Clearly this is a self contradictory quote, but ruble would fit with the other quotes, and it is very possible Han only has a vague idea as to what a BDZ is.

Hutt Gambit wrote: Fel would carry out his orders, but he wasn't happy about them. He
knew images of the flaming buildings would haunt him, as he gave each
order to fire. And afterward . . . they'd have to send down shuttles
and ground troops to mop up, and he, Fel, being a conscientious
commander, would have to oversee that operation.

Visions of smoking rubble strewn with blackened corpses filled his
mind, and Fel took a deep breath.
Perfectly in line with a BDZ as described in the RPG sources.

StarWarsStarTrek
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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:16 pm

This quote is meaningless. Earth like Planets naturally come with the surface covered in slag because of what they are made of, and how they form. Just look out a window, and you will see almost nothing but slag. You can't slag a planet, or turn a planet to slag.
What the hell? So now you are claiming that Base Delta Zeros really target planets that are still forming and covered with molten slag? Even though Base Delta Zeros specifically target inhabited, Earth-like planets?

That has got to be one of the most...interesting methods to denying the "molten slag" quotes that I have yet seen.
Cities and population centers would indicate that you only target areas where there are large groups of people together. Clearly there can easily be survivors as the order is not to kill everyone.
Your interpretation runs headlong into canonical statements that specify the destruction of "all sapient life".
and a BDZ certainly does not require killing everything on the planet.
Except that it is defined in various sources to do specifically that. BDZ is overkill; that's the point of it.

Nor would a few sticks of tnt launched from orbit destroy bottom-of-the-sea oil deposits.

Mr. O, I have not forgotten about our debate.

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Mr. Oragahn
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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:16 pm

It would have been very nice if Lucky hasn't rebooted the whole affair in this "new" thread. I'd greatly encourage people to read the BDZ thread to know how to treat the concept of "molten slag".

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Praeothmin
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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:33 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It would have been very nice if Lucky hasn't rebooted the whole affair in this "new" thread. I'd greatly encourage people to read the BDZ thread to know how to treat the concept of "molten slag".
I'd greatly encourage people to stop replying to SWST's bullshit until he comes up with actual numbers, and stops using single cherry picked examples contradicted by the bulk of SW canon (G, T and C) as evidence...

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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Picard » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:11 pm

I greatly encourage people to stop using EU...
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But I know noone will listen.

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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Lucky » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:58 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: What the hell? So now you are claiming that Base Delta Zeros really target planets that are still forming and covered with molten slag? Even though Base Delta Zeros specifically target inhabited, Earth-like planets?
You're talking about a different quote I think. Could you please provide the quote, and the source please?
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Look out a window, and you will see what is for all practical purposes slag. We normally call it the planetary crust and mantle. You can not start with slag, and then transform the slag into slag, and that is what the quote I posted says a Star Destroyer can do. Since the act is impossible there is no reason to assume the quote is meant to be taken literally.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: That has got to be one of the most...interesting methods to denying the "molten slag" quotes that I have yet seen.
If I was to attack the molten part of your claim I would simply point out that Vader's entire fleet at Hoth could not melt or vaporize the ice in a reasonable amount of time to stop the Rebels from escaping. With the levels of firepower you are suggesting the shield the rebels put up would not be of any protection.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Your interpretation runs headlong into canonical statements that specify the destruction of "all sapient life".
Please provide the source and the quote. I don't think there has ever been a BDZ that actually killed everyone, and the official description is that of a scorch earth tactic that might cause ecological collapse as a side effect sometimes.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that it is defined in various sources to do specifically that. BDZ is overkill; that's the point of it.
I've posted all the quotes I know of that describe what a BDZ is., and the quotes posted are the original definition. None of them say that life forms in general, or the population are directly targeted, and that matches a real world scorched earth policy.. If you have a quote then I suggest you post it with the source rather then being coy.


StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Nor would a few sticks of tnt launched from orbit destroy bottom-of-the-sea oil deposits.
No, but it would only take one person with a few(5 at most) sticks of TNT to completely destroy some mines because the way to destroy these mines is to target the large machinery instead of the shallow hole in the ground.

Every Base Delta Zero leaves resources untouched if not easier to extract in some cases as seen in Caamas and Nar Shaddaa. Obviously they would target oil wells, but Star Wars ships can't just look at a place, and see things buried hundreds if not thousands of feet below the ground easily in the best of time, and no one will be able to drill new wells for years after the bombardment, and logically only the Empire will have the resources to resettle the planet.

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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Lucky » Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:59 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: What the hell? So now you are claiming that Base Delta Zeros really target planets that are still forming and covered with molten slag? Even though Base Delta Zeros specifically target inhabited, Earth-like planets?
You're talking about a different quote I think. Could you please provide the quote, and the source please?
_____
Look out a window, and you will see what is for all practical purposes slag. We normally call it the planetary crust and mantle. You can not start with slag, and then transform the slag into slag, and that is what the quote I posted says a Star Destroyer can do. Since the act is impossible there is no reason to assume the quote is meant to be taken literally.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: That has got to be one of the most...interesting methods to denying the "molten slag" quotes that I have yet seen.
If I was to attack the molten part of your claim I would simply point out that Vader's entire fleet at Hoth could not melt or vaporize the ice in a reasonable amount of time to stop the Rebels from escaping. With the levels of firepower you are suggesting the shield the rebels put up would not be of any protection.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Your interpretation runs headlong into canonical statements that specify the destruction of "all sapient life".
Please provide the source and the quote. I don't think there has ever been a BDZ that actually killed everyone, and the official description is that of a scorch earth tactic that might cause ecological collapse as a side effect sometimes.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Except that it is defined in various sources to do specifically that. BDZ is overkill; that's the point of it.
I've posted all the quotes I know of that describe what a BDZ is., and the quotes posted are the original definition. None of them say that life forms in general, or the population are directly targeted, and that matches a real world scorched earth policy.. If you have a quote then I suggest you post it with the source rather then being coy.


StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Nor would a few sticks of tnt launched from orbit destroy bottom-of-the-sea oil deposits.
No, but it would only take one person with a few(5 at most) sticks of TNT to completely destroy some mines because the way to destroy these mines is to target the large machinery instead of the shallow hole in the ground.

Every Base Delta Zero leaves resources untouched if not easier to extract in some cases as seen in Caamas and Nar Shaddaa. Obviously they would target oil wells, but Star Wars ships can't just look at a place, and see things buried hundreds if not thousands of feet below the ground easily in the best of time, and no one will be able to drill new wells for years after the bombardment, and logically only the Empire will have the resources to resettle the planet.

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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Picard » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:49 am

Look out a window, and you will see what is for all practical purposes slag. We normally call it the planetary crust and mantle. You can not start with slag, and then transform the slag into slag, and that is what the quote I posted says a Star Destroyer can do. Since the act is impossible there is no reason to assume the quote is meant to be taken literally.
You can transform rocks and houses into slag.

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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Lucky » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:12 am

Look out a window, and you will see what is for all practical purposes slag. We normally call it the planetary crust and mantle. You can not start with slag, and then transform the slag into slag, and that is what the quote I posted says a Star Destroyer can do. Since the act is impossible there is no reason to assume the quote is meant to be taken literally.
Picard wrote: You can transform rocks and houses into slag.
The rocks will stratify, and that means you end up with pure material.

The house will be turned to ash or stratify.

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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Jasonb » Mon May 14, 2012 11:30 pm

Problem always had with Base Delta Zero one thing order give Death star fire if had any salt to it.

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mojo
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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by mojo » Tue May 15, 2012 2:51 am

Jasonb wrote:Problem always had with Base Delta Zero one thing order give Death star fire if had any salt to it.
wha..
...
....
.....really?!

PRAEOTHMIN
TRANSLATION PLEASE?

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Praeothmin
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Re: Compare Base Delta Zero and General Order 24

Post by Praeothmin » Tue May 15, 2012 12:24 pm

What??????
Why me?
I'm not drunk right now, I have no fucking clue what he just wrote...

Ok, let me try:
-Ducks can fly but not when driving a car in a narrow hospital corridor...

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