Rebuttal to darkstar's website

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
Locked
Kor_Dahar_Master
Starship Captain
Posts: 1246
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:17 pm

*sigh* You guys do realize that Vader isn't an astrologist, right? Him casually musing about the galaxy being modest sized is too vague to override the Atlas SPECIFICALLY SAYING that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 light years across. The Star Wars galaxy might be in a portion of the universe where galaxies are typically that large.
WTF has being a astrologist got to do with knowing the diameter of your own galaxy?, im not and i know the diameter of the milky way in fact im ikely the most uneducated person here.

Vader is part of a space faring civilisation and a pretty important part at that so to claim he must be a astrologist for his comment to be taken as knowledgable is a insult to reason.

User avatar
Mith
Starship Captain
Posts: 765
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:17 am

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Mith » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:26 pm

Yikes, can't even support 5 million more clones? That's outright piracy at the rates they must be charging them. Then again, I suppose one could point out that you just can't uy 5 million guys. You have to pay for armor, training, weapons, artillery, and ships for those five million guys to use.

But even with those things taken into account, the Republic must be in dire straights if it can't afford that many troops.

Also, as per the galaxy size thing, would not this being a long, long time ago suggest that the galaxies in and of themselves would be smaller? I mean granted, it takes a great deal of time, but the fact that it's long ago and we know it's modest sized...

Nowhereman10
Bridge Officer
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Nowhereman10 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:23 pm

I love how when Darkstar himself shows up and answers to SWST's accusations, SWST doesn't take the opportunity to address Darkstar's counterpoints, just quietly tries to debunk the ANH novelization's bit about the SW galaxy being modest sized by trying to claim that Vader is ignorant about the basics of his own galaxy. Vader being the same Anakin Skywalker that listened to experianced spacers tell their stories and information, like the Balmorra Run that allowed him and Shadown Squadron to reach the medical station ahead of the Malevolence. The same guy who was himself one the best star pilots in the Galaxy, and was extensively well-travelled as a Jedi Knight, and later Sith Lord.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:16 pm

Well, StarWarsStarTrek has shown many times if he is debunked in an argument, he changes the subject to evade having to provide proof.
Wonder where we've seen this before... :)
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Where are those quotes from?
This information was provided many, many times in all those other threads you replied in, so I suggest you simply use the "search" function...

User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:01 pm

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:*sigh* You guys do realize that Vader isn't an astrologist, right? Him casually musing about the galaxy being modest sized is too vague to override the Atlas SPECIFICALLY SAYING that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 light years across. The Star Wars galaxy might be in a portion of the universe where galaxies are typically that large.
If you had read what was written in reply to your stammering, you would have noticed that the » modest sized galaxy « is not from Vader's musings but a fact given by the omniscient narrator.
  • ANH - novelization:
    • page 111:
      • The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion.
      page: 163:
      • Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.
This is not what someone has thought or said. This are objective facts.

You can complain as long as you want. That won't change the fact that the Star Wars galaxy is only a modest sized one according to the novelization of A New Hope. This novelization is, written under the name of George Lucas, G-canon and overrides all lower-canon sources that are claiming that the Star Wars galaxy is with 120.000 light years in diameter a huge galaxy. With other words: These sources are - as far as the size of the Star Wars galaxy is concerned - as worthless as used toilet-paper.

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Picard » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:02 pm

Plus, some have tried to use "million star systems" as evidence of collosal size of Empire. While it probably has way larger population and planetary count, it is nowhere near 1000 times of Federation's size. Heck, even most Empire-favourable size estimates I made give Empire as having "only" 105 times Federation's population (OK, that was for Republic, but unless you can prove me from canon that Empire does not control approximately same number of systems/planets like GR, it stands).

StarWarsStarTrek
Starship Captain
Posts: 881
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:39 pm

WILGA wrote:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote:*sigh* You guys do realize that Vader isn't an astrologist, right? Him casually musing about the galaxy being modest sized is too vague to override the Atlas SPECIFICALLY SAYING that the Star Wars galaxy is 120,000 light years across. The Star Wars galaxy might be in a portion of the universe where galaxies are typically that large.
If you had read what was written in reply to your stammering, you would have noticed that the » modest sized galaxy « is not from Vader's musings but a fact given by the omniscient narrator.
  • ANH - novelization:
    • page 111:
      • The tridimensional solid screen filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling. It showed a million star systems. A tiny portion of the galaxy, but an impressive display nonetheless when exhibited in such a fashion.
      page: 163:
      • Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy.
This is not what someone has thought or said. This are objective facts.

You can complain as long as you want. That won't change the fact that the Star Wars galaxy is only a modest sized one according to the novelization of A New Hope. This novelization is, written under the name of George Lucas, G-canon and overrides all lower-canon sources that are claiming that the Star Wars galaxy is with 120.000 light years in diameter a huge galaxy. With other words: These sources are - as far as the size of the Star Wars galaxy is concerned - as worthless as used toilet-paper.
Except that there is no proof that it was an omniscient 3rd person narrator, since all canon Star Wars novels except for I, Jedi have been in 3rd person limited.

User avatar
Who is like God arbour
Starship Captain
Posts: 1155
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 3:00 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Who is like God arbour » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:52 pm

That's so wrong that I'm inclined to accuse you to have intentionally lied.

Either by claiming that you have read said novelizations or by claiming that their stories are told by a limited third person narrator.

An omniscient third person narrator has omniscient knowledge of time, people, places and events.

A limited third person narrator, in contrast, may know absolutely everything about a single character and every piece of knowledge in that character's mind, but it is "limited" to that character - that is, it cannot describe things unknown to the focal character.

In all Star Wars novelizations, the narrator always described things that happened at different places with different characters.

In the novelization of » A New Hope «, the narrator begins its story with describing scenes aboard the Tantive IV where neither Luke nor Darth Vader appeared. It describes how the rebels are readying themselves for the imminent boarding of their ship. Even princess Leia is not mentioned at first. Only later does she and Darth Vader appear. Then it described scenes on Tatooine in which Luke appeared but neither Darth Vader nor princess Leia. Later it described scenes in the Death Star in which Darth Vader but not Luke appeared. After Luke, Han, Chewbaca, Leia and the droids escaped from the Death Star, the narrator describes a scene in which Tarkin and Darth Vader are talking about the homing device and eventual risks only to change to a scene aboard the Falcon.

Insofar, it is obviously that it was not limited to what a specific person experienced. The narrator was not focused on a single person and knew more than a single person could knew.

Insofar there can't be a doubt that the story of » A New Hope « is told by an omniscient third person narrator.

But even if it were only a limited third person narrator, the objective facts that a limited third person narrator describes are still objective facts. When such a narrator describes a scene, then the scene is as it was described.

These quotes above are objective facts (and the opinion of the narrator) but not the thoughts or opinion of Darth Vader or any other character.

Insofar, even if the narrator of the story of » A New Hope « is only a imited third person narrator, who was only describing what Darth Vader experienced in that moment, the tridimensional solid screen still filled one wall of the vast chamber from floor to ceiling and still showed a million star systems, which were together a tiny portion of the modest-sized galaxy.

And all lower-canon sources that are claiming that the Star Wars galaxy is with 120.000 light years in diameter a huge galaxy are still as worthless as used toilet-paper.

User1461
Redshirt
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by User1461 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:19 am

"Modest sized" means "small." 10,000LY would be only 1/1000 the size of our own, and so it would have maybe 100 million stars compared to our 100-400 billion.
How many inhabited systems does the canon claim?

User avatar
2046
Starship Captain
Posts: 2047
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:14 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by 2046 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:19 am

Nowhereman10 wrote:I love how when Darkstar himself shows up and answers to SWST's accusations, SWST doesn't take the opportunity to address Darkstar's counterpoints,
Well, while I don't know the guy (he may be super-annoying, or perhaps he's reasonable but misinformed), I do know what it is like to have multiple opponents simultaneously. And since he's in a similar boat, I'm certainly willing to give the benefit of the doubt in regards to his posting order. One aims for chronological, but that can be silly at times.

Besides, it's only fair that he get a couple of weeks, since that's how long it took me to see his post. :-)

Picard
Starship Captain
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Picard » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:23 pm

2046 wrote:Well, while I don't know the guy
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 382#p27301

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:38 pm

WhosYourData wrote:"Modest sized" means "small." 10,000LY would be only 1/1000 the size of our own, and so it would have maybe 100 million stars compared to our 100-400 billion.
How many inhabited systems does the canon claim?
Closer to 100-400 million...
In ANH, the Empire had over 1 million systems, and I believe 12-20 million in a few books, until the idiocy got bigger and there was a 70 billion systems mentioned somewhere...
But higher Canon?
Hundreds of thousands in the PT, and 1 million in the OT...

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:39 pm

2046 wrote:
Nowhereman10 wrote:I love how when Darkstar himself shows up and answers to SWST's accusations, SWST doesn't take the opportunity to address Darkstar's counterpoints,
Well, while I don't know the guy (he may be super-annoying, or perhaps he's reasonable but misinformed), I do know what it is like to have multiple opponents simultaneously. And since he's in a similar boat, I'm certainly willing to give the benefit of the doubt in regards to his posting order. One aims for chronological, but that can be silly at times.

Besides, it's only fair that he get a couple of weeks, since that's how long it took me to see his post. :-)
Problem is, a lot of people are just repeating the same points over and over, because he fails, every single time, to provide any evidence to his counter-claims...

Nowhereman10
Bridge Officer
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by Nowhereman10 » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:34 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
2046 wrote:
Nowhereman10 wrote:I love how when Darkstar himself shows up and answers to SWST's accusations, SWST doesn't take the opportunity to address Darkstar's counterpoints,
Well, while I don't know the guy (he may be super-annoying, or perhaps he's reasonable but misinformed), I do know what it is like to have multiple opponents simultaneously. And since he's in a similar boat, I'm certainly willing to give the benefit of the doubt in regards to his posting order. One aims for chronological, but that can be silly at times.

Besides, it's only fair that he get a couple of weeks, since that's how long it took me to see his post. :-)
Problem is, a lot of people are just repeating the same points over and over, because he fails, every single time, to provide any evidence to his counter-claims...
Yeah, that's it exactly. I mean, I understand where you're coming from, Darkstar, but let's face it, don't let any sympathy cloud your judgement here. This guy could easily have answered or made acknowledgement of the evidence people have provided. Instead he seems to just prefer to ignore that which goes against his ideas of an all-powerful Galactic Empire and Star Wars technology in general, and anything that shows that Star Trek is more powerful or better than Wars.

StarWarsStarTrek
Starship Captain
Posts: 881
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Rebuttal to darkstar's website

Post by StarWarsStarTrek » Sat Dec 11, 2010 1:24 am

Star Wars novels are not in 3rd person omniscient. Why? Because they fix their PoV on a single person or group. For example, if a portion of the novel is from the PoV of Leia, it rarely if ever says while staying in the same Pov anything like "but, unknown to Leia, a shadow like figure was creeping up behind her".

For example, many Star Wars novels actually state opinions of characters as if they were fact. Obviously these aren't meant to be end-all statements, especially since they're obviously false; an example is in one of the chapters of Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi Outcast and other books of the same series when the PoV is centered around Valin Horn, who has gone mad. It states his opinions as fact. For example, paraphrased "the woman standing in front of him was not his mother." Except that Mirax was indeed standing in front of him, but Valin was mad and therefore didn't realize that. In some of the Bane novels some disturbing moral thoughts are stated without a "bane thought" before or after it, but obviously the author didn't agree with them.

Also, your example of Darth Vader's thoughts were clearly MUSINGs. They were from the point of view of Vader, since the portion of the novel was delving into Vader's thoughts. For example, if the novel said "Luke didn't like holodramas that didn't have a good plot or at least some purpose to them, unless if they were comedies. They were stupid" would you claim "omg such and such is stupid!"?. Or if the novel stated "Tarkin smiled. Once completed, the Death Star would be invincible" would you like it if Star Wars supporters said "omg! The Death Star would be invincible!"?

Locked