Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
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KirkSkyWalker
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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:36 am

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: It was never defined why it was inherant to her species, nor were many other races abilities defined to a cause. As such midichlorian-levels could be as much a reason as any other.
Agrumentum ad ingorantiam. However if it was midichlorians then logically it would be attributed to them, the Fed's not exactly stupid when it comes to scientific research.
WTF is precognition if not a form of mental time travel?, unless you are gonna throw out Quantum mechanics and claim we live in a pure newtonian galaxy/universe you are stuck with it pal.
The wormhole aliens didn't do it via midichlorians, they existed outside of linear time.
I never said they did, but the fact is that precognitionin any species can only exist in our concept of known physics via time travel of one kind or another, be it mental, physical or metaphysical and that includes the force.
Irrelevant; the point is that all known cases in ST are attributed to something other than midichlorians.

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:55 am

KirkSkywalker wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: It was never defined why it was inherant to her species, nor were many other races abilities defined to a cause. As such midichlorian-levels could be as much a reason as any other.
Agrumentum ad ingorantiam. However if it was midichlorians then logically it would be attributed to them, the Fed's not exactly stupid when it comes to scientific research.

Maybe maybe not but the fact is that the abilities exist in the ST galaxy and as such their is no reason i can see that force powers would not exist either, even though they would be less important due to abilities like that being comon and even racial traits possesed by entire species with billions of members.

What do we have?, 10k jedi vs entire planets full of TK, TK and TP or people with even more poweful abilities?.

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Sat Aug 28, 2010 3:52 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
KirkSkywalker wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: It was never defined why it was inherant to her species, nor were many other races abilities defined to a cause. As such midichlorian-levels could be as much a reason as any other.
Agrumentum ad ingorantiam. However if it was midichlorians then logically it would be attributed to them, the Fed's not exactly stupid when it comes to scientific research.
Maybe maybe not but the fact is that the abilities exist in the ST galaxy and as such their is no reason i can see that force powers would not exist either,.

Simple: No midichlorians-- which equals no Force.
even though they would be less important due to abilities like that being comon and even racial traits possesed by entire species with billions of members.

What do we have?, 10k jedi vs entire planets full of TK, TK and TP or people with even more poweful abilities?.
I'm talking about the "big picture" force-abilities. The midichlorians controlled everything in the galaxy through The Force-- just like the alien in "Day of the Dove" controlled the ship's crew if they didn't break free of its control.It allowed those it empowered, to know and see basically everything that was going on-- and change it.

That's what I was getting at with the fanfic; if we didn't cure the midichlorians and free the galaxy, then they'd infect ours and end up the same way.

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Sat Aug 28, 2010 5:21 pm

KirkSkywalker wrote:[

Simple: No midichlorians-- which equals no Force.

But midichlorians are in the Jedi so they still are capable of force abilities, think of the midichlorians as luggage if you like.


I'm talking about the "big picture" force-abilities. The midichlorians controlled everything in the galaxy through The Force-- just like the alien in "Day of the Dove" controlled the ship's crew if they didn't break free of its control. It allowed those it empowered, to know and see basically everything that was going on-- and change it.
I think "know and see basically everything that was going on" is a bit of a streach as even yoda did not see things that clearly even before the sitrh blurred things, but even his normal powers would be available unless he had a "midichlorianectomy".....

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:11 pm

I agree with KirkSkywalker that if we assume that the FORCE is generated and controlled by the midichlorians and that for the FORCE to become effective, billions of beings have to be infected, it is probable that there is no force in the Milky Way.

For one, even with our technology from today, we would know if there is anything unusual in our cells.

And then there is the question how these midichlorians could have spread.

Even in the Star Wars galaxy, the midichlorians could only have "infected" the whole galaxy because there is interstellar travel. Otherwise, on whichever planet these midichlorians have evolved, they couldn't have left the planet.

But because there is no travel between the Star Wars galaxy and the Milk Way, there is no feasible way, how the midichlorians could have reached the Milky Way. (On asteroids they probably would have needed more time than the universe is old)

Insofar, only visitors / invaders from the Star Wars galaxy could bring midichlorians to the Milky Way.

But then it would need time until enough people are infected that the FORCE these midichlorians are generating gets strong enough to be effective.

The midichlorians of the visitors alone wouldn't probably be enough to create a strong enough FORCE field.

And these midichlorians would have the problem, that they would be recognized in the Milky Way as what they are and that the inhabitants of the Milky Way would fight a midichlorian-pandemic.

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:38 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
KirkSkywalker wrote:[

Simple: No midichlorians-- which equals no Force.

But midichlorians are in the Jedi so they still are capable of force abilities, think of the midichlorians as luggage if you like.
No, they'd only have what bio-energy existed in their own bodies--which would be nothing without all the combined bio-energy of every living thing in the SW galaxy: i.e. The Force, which was "an energy-field created by all living things."
That's why I had McCoy mention this precisely in the fanfic, saying that an organism's bio-energy wasn't enough to do anything-- while Kirk countered him, saying that the midichlorians (i.e. "parasites"), being collective, could collectively channel the energy of every living thing in the entire SW galaxy.

This is how a Force-user does it.

I'm talking about the "big picture" force-abilities. The midichlorians controlled everything in the galaxy through The Force-- just like the alien in "Day of the Dove" controlled the ship's crew if they didn't break free of its control. It allowed those it empowered, to know and see basically everything that was going on-- and change it.
I think "know and see basically everything that was going on" is a bit of a streach as even yoda did not see things that clearly even before the sitrh blurred things, but even his normal powers would be available unless he had a "midichlorianectomy"....
Again, the Jedi Council were fairly well-able to maintain peace and order in the galaxy for thousands of years, before Palpatine engineered the Sith-return.
After that, Palpatine alone was able to put down the rebellion fairly well using the Dark Side,until Luke likewise re-appeared; after that, even a bunch of mangy Ewoks were able to beat the Empire.
Last edited by KirkSkyWalker on Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:53 pm

WILGA wrote:I agree with KirkSkywalker that if we assume that the FORCE is generated and controlled by the midichlorians and that for the FORCE to become effective, billions of beings have to be infected, it is probable that there is no force in the Milky Way.

For one, even with our technology from today, we would know if there is anything unusual in our cells.

And then there is the question how these midichlorians could have spread.

Even in the Star Wars galaxy, the midichlorians could only have "infected" the whole galaxy because there is interstellar travel. Otherwise, on whichever planet these midichlorians have evolved, they couldn't have left the planet.

But because there is no travel between the Star Wars galaxy and the Milk Way, there is no feasible way, how the midichlorians could have reached the Milky Way. (On asteroids they probably would have needed more time than the universe is old)

Insofar, only visitors / invaders from the Star Wars galaxy could bring midichlorians to the Milky Way.

But then it would need time until enough people are infected that the FORCE these midichlorians are generating gets strong enough to be effective.

The midichlorians of the visitors alone wouldn't probably be enough to create a strong enough FORCE field.

And these midichlorians would have the problem, that they would be recognized in the Milky Way as what they are and that the inhabitants of the Milky Way would fight a midichlorian-pandemic.
Consider “Operation: Annhilate!” where I noticed a similarity in the fanfic, of those parasites having killed Kirk’s brother; in that episode, collective parasites from another galaxy were infesting people. However they were clearly virulent and harmful; but if the midichlorians were relatively benign, then they might be able to pass under the various biofilters and escape notice as harmless particles, ordinary mitochondria etc.

So: what if the Sith-agents were sent to the galaxy in droves, and they spread midichlorians to every planet where life existed— and those midichlorians multiplied geometrically?
Immediately, they could begin using collective bio-energy to gain an advantage over other micro-organisms to replace normal bacteria etc-- as well as influencing the actions of their carriers.
This would take “Operation: Annhilate!” to a galaxy-wide level—and would require that the UFP likewise invade the SW galaxy and wipe them out at their source.
Otherwise, their cycle of violence and savagery would continue forever, spreading throughout the universe.

Here, Kirk might find himself in the middle of such a takeover, or in an advanced stage of it; the greater the advance, the more that Force-users could use that power to advantage—it only depends on how much the invasion advanced before the UFP became suspicious of it.
Again, at first the midichlorians could appear benign, even benevolent in aiding knowledge, healing etc; then of course the Dark Side would appear, at which point it might be too late to reverse the invasion before they had taken over the galaxy… save for a few, of course ;-)

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:31 pm

Midichlorians possibly have the same effect on physics, in away, as mass does on space time, in that a high concentration of midichlorians will create a black hole were spat time is distorted.
What was the explanation about the lack of interaction between the Yuuzhan Vong and the Force again?
I barely read stuff about that Vergere character.
Also, is there something said about the ysalamari?

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:56 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Midichlorians possibly have the same effect on physics, in away, as mass does on space time, in that a high concentration of midichlorians will create a black hole were spat time is distorted.
So that's why Hayden Christenson sucks so much as Anakin Skywalker! :D
What was the explanation about the lack of interaction between the Yuuzhan Vong and the Force again?
I barely read stuff about that Vergere character.
Also, is there something said about the ysalamari?
That's the EU. In the G-canon, we've never seen these "Force storms" etc.

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:27 pm

KirkSkywalker wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:You cannot train or clone experiance,
You can if the sims are good enough; clearly, they were pretty good judging from the way the Clones handled themselves on Geonosis and duringthe CLone Wars.
They weren't as bad as Stormtroopers, but considering they were facing ineffective Battle Droids that even Jar-Jar Binks can beat, they weren't all that impressive...
Their tactics were simple, lacking imagination, and they were basically ligning up to get shot at on Geonosis...
nor can you train so many clone to such a high degree of specialisation jango had from his years as a merc.
Before that he was a Mandalorean soldier, and that's what the clones were trained as.
The Jedi handled the SFO stuff.
Which still doesn't mean that they are as good as Jango, which you failed to demonstrate.
I'll give you an example:
Martial Arts classes always have senior students that have trained with the master for years, yet even after the master thaught them all he knew, they still weren't as good for the most part because they didn't have his experience.
Èxperience is the key the Clones are missing here to be as good individually as Jango, period...

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by Mike DiCenso » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:09 pm

KirkSkywalker wrote:So that's why Hayden Christenson sucks so much as Anakin Skywalker! :D
That's more the failure of George Luca's directing, than poor Hayden's. How'd you do trying to pretend that a tennis ball someone is holding up is Natalie Portman while standing on a mostly empty green screen stage? ;-)
-Mike

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:58 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
KirkSkywalker wrote:So that's why Hayden Christenson sucks so much as Anakin Skywalker! :D
That's more the failure of George Luca's directing, than poor Hayden's. How'd you do trying to pretend that a tennis ball someone is holding up is Natalie Portman while standing on a mostly empty green screen stage? ;-)
-Mike
Actually I wouldn't notice the difference, other than for the fact that her acting suddenly improved so much; in fact if I was cast to play Anakin, I'd ask Anthony Daniels for some pointers on talking to inanaimate objects.

What parts of the filming actually did that, however?

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:10 am

Praeothmin wrote:
KirkSkywalker wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:You cannot train or clone experiance,
You can if the sims are good enough; clearly, they were pretty good judging from the way the Clones handled themselves on Geonosis and duringthe CLone Wars.
They weren't as bad as Stormtroopers, but considering they were facing ineffective Battle Droids that even Jar-Jar Binks can beat, they weren't all that impressive...
Their tactics were simple, lacking imagination, and they were basically ligning up to get shot at on Geonosis...
nor can you train so many clone to such a high degree of specialisation jango had from his years as a merc.
Before that he was a Mandalorean soldier, and that's what the clones were trained as.
The Jedi handled the SFO stuff.
Which still doesn't mean that they are as good as Jango, which you failed to demonstrate.
I'll give you an example:
Martial Arts classes always have senior students that have trained with the master for years, yet even after the master thaught them all he knew, they still weren't as good for the most part because they didn't have his experience.
Èxperience is the key the Clones are missing here to be as good individually as Jango, period...

Well looks like we got another armchair-"expert."
If the training-sims are any good, that's experience enough.

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:34 am

Simulations won't get you the experience. And that's assuming the sim is top class to boot, coming from people who haven't heard of a large scale war in ages.

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Re: Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:22 pm

KirkSkywalker wrote: Well looks like we got another armchair-"expert."
If the training-sims are any good, that's experience enough.
Except that this "armchair-expert" has dome something you didn't:
Provided evidence that the Clones cannot have Jango's experience, and since they all have his genetic makeup, that means that no Clone can be faster, or stronger, two things that could make up a bit for their lack of experience.

Once again, you make assertions you fail to back-up, and all you have to reply to people who take your assertions apart with logical analyses and evidence to support their points are snappy replies.
And you've also failed to provide your "expertise" in things like simulation training, Clone trooper training, and you've failed to provide evidence that experience is worth nothing, and that a few months of "flash-training" by an expert makes you an expert too...

So this "armchair-expert" say put up, or conceed...

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