Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

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Lucky
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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:34 pm

MauriceWindows wrote: Or just sensor-beams and MRI's.
But I don't think they work that way; in DS9's "Little Green Men," Quark showed that the UT was a little thing implanted in a person's ear, that allows them to hear and speak in foreign languages. This doesn't "read thought" from a distance, it's hooked right into their brain.

Meanwhile on DS9 station, a new aliens species came to the station from the Gamma Quadrant, and the station's computer had to observe them for a while in order to learn more and more of their language, by observing their speech and actions together; and then after a few days or so, everyone was able to communicate with them normally.
This indicated that the DS9 crew's UT implants were wirelessly connected to the station's LAN, in order to automatically download automatic updates of language-files as soon as they became available.

This also doesn't "read thought," but rather the computer just watches and observes in order to learn languages from the correlations between actions and words.
Where is it stated in "Little Green Men" how the U.T. works?

What model universal translator does Deep Space Nine have? It was a Cardasian station first, and being brought up to Federation standard for a while. I doubt a working U.T. even if not as good as a Federation U.T. would be high on the list of things to fix or improve.

Show Spock was wrong or lying, and Spock being right is kind of required for the episode to make sense.

MauriceWindows wrote: No, they can just go from full stop to warp in one move.
The warp threshold was a minor plot point in "Star Trek; First contact". There is a threshold that needs to be reached before a ship can actually go to warp, and that threshold is about the speed of light if not light speed. It only appears that ships go straight to warp because of how fast they can accelerate to the threshold so fast.
MauriceWindows wrote: And? If they can go faster than light, then obviously they can go slower.
Yes, but in this case we are talking about tiny little under powered shuttles going .7c through atmosphere. The energies are insane, and the point was ships normally have no trouble reaching near light speeds or higher.

MauriceWindows wrote:
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/subspace-radio wrote: subspace radio

Method of communication that sends electromagnetic signals through subspace, boosting the signal's range and speed to translight velocities. Subspace signals can carry audiovisual data as well as text messages. Within Federation boundaries, a network of relay stations augments subspace communication and amplifying and rerouting messages as needed.
That's also the only thing that would explain the speed of the transmissions, and over the distances covered; nothing else even comes close.
That quote says nothing about wormholes.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/231.htm wrote: LAFORGE: Good question. The emissions are coming from a tertiary subspace domain, but subspace has an infinite number of domains. It's like a huge honeycomb with an endless number of cells. We need to isolate the exact cell that these emissions are coming from.
MauriceWindows wrote: It's just common sense. To go to warp on the torpedo's own power would drain it, reducing both speed and potential damage.
However it needs a space-warp to either go to FTL speed, or maintain it, and both shields and space-warps work on the same principle.
The point is that torpedos accelerate after being fired, and they don't need the ship they are fired from to be at warp to reach faster then light speeds. They don't just sustain the warp field.

MauriceWindows wrote: Presumably, a stronger shield can also penetrate a weaker one by cancellation; and torpedo-shields should be stronger than ship-shields, because they've got more power-area ratio and they can be designed for 100% power (ala the Orion warship in "Journey to Babel" which was only the size of an ordinary scout-ship, but could stll beat the Enterprise for that reason).
I know of no evidence that stronger shields can penetrate weaker shields. Everything seems to come down to matching frequencies(what is being measured is never explained), and disrupting the shields. More power doesn't work well as seen in "A Taste of Armageddon" where a weapon throws more energy at the Enterprise then seems to exist in the known universe.

MauriceWindows wrote: I doubt it. You're talking about an awful lot of M-E conversion to contain-- and move: over a 2000 megaton's bomb's worth, to transport a single average-sized person.
That's more than I can accept to be handled by a teeny little transporter-pad.
Rather, particles would need to stay intact, and the only energy transmitted would be the weak binding-forces between atoms and electrons. Even the strong nuclear forces would be too immense to disassemble the core-particles and then re-assemble them at the terminus. Treknology is powerful, but not that powerful.
TNG "Up the Long Ladder" has the Enterprise-D transport 200 humans, and an unknown number of livestock(goats, pigs, chickens) in one go. That would be about 600 gigatons with humans alone I believe.^_^

In "Our Man Bashir" Sisko, Dax, Worf, Kira, and O'Brien are stored in the holosuite database, and stored as holograms.

At the very least the thing being transported is broken down into electrons, protons, and neutrons, sent through sub-space, and then reassembled at the other end. They would not have a Heisenburg compensator unless transporters work on the quantum level.

Honestly you can make a reasonable argument that Star Trek is a very high powered setting without using the silly high ends like "A Taste of Armageddon"..

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:01 pm

Lucky wrote:More power doesn't work well as seen in "A Taste of Armageddon" where a weapon throws more energy at the Enterprise then seems to exist in the known universe.
Which is how we know that that incident is idiotic, and an outlier, and that TOS did make mistakes, like their Über-Antimatter...

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:52 am

Lucky wrote:More power doesn't work well as seen in "A Taste of Armageddon" where a weapon throws more energy at the Enterprise then seems to exist in the known universe.
Praeothmin wrote:Which is how we know that that incident is idiotic, and an outlier, and that TOS did make mistakes, like their Über-Antimatter...
Uber-antimatter is a repeated event in Star Trek as I recall, and you can blame things for enhancing the reaction like dilithium.

Didn't the Enterprise shrug off a planet killing blast from the Doomsday Machine?

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by KSW » Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:26 am

Lucky wrote: Didn't the Enterprise shrug off a planet killing blast from the Doomsday Machine?
The Warsies object, and must concur, that perhaps the Doomsday Machine wasn't firing with its full power at something the size of the Enterprise.
After all in "Balance of Terror," we saw the Enterprise damaged by a nearby plasma-explosion (which, admittedly, could destroy a fully-shielded base inside a mile of iron), and was fairly crippled by a nuclear device detonated at 100 meters.
While these are nothing to sneeze at, they certainly weren't planet-destroying forces.

However given my rundown on the Superlaser, it's feasible that the Enterprise could hold it.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:30 am

Lucky wrote: Didn't the Enterprise shrug off a planet killing blast from the Doomsday Machine?
MauriceWindows wrote: The Warsies object, and must concur, that perhaps the Doomsday Machine wasn't firing with its full power at something the size of the Enterprise.
After all in "Balance of Terror," we saw the Enterprise damaged by a nearby plasma-explosion (which, admittedly, could destroy a fully-shielded base inside a mile of iron), and was fairly crippled by a nuclear device detonated at 100 meters.
While these are nothing to sneeze at, they certainly weren't planet-destroying forces.

However given my rundown on the Superlaser, it's feasible that the Enterprise could hold it.
And why would the Doomsday machine not just disable the Enterprise in a single shot if it could?

The plasma weapon in "Balance of Terror" caused implosions, and the base was not iron.
SPOCK: From the outpost's protective shield. Cast rodinium. This is the hardest substance known to our science.
(He crushes it with his hand)
SPOCK: Lab theorises an enveloping energy plasma forcing an implosion.


What episode was the Enterprise threatened by a nuclear device at 100 meters?

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Praeothmin
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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:21 am

The same one, when the Romulans leave a Nuclear Device in a field of debris as a trap to the Enterprise...

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:30 am

Praeothmin wrote:The same one, when the Romulans leave a Nuclear Device in a field of debris as a trap to the Enterprise...
Balance of Terror
(The lights are being dimmed and systems shut down as they rig for silent running)
SPOCK: Captain, I must make further repairs on the transfer coil. It's giving out again.
KIRK: All right, Mister Spock, work quietly.
DECIUS: How, Commander. How?
COMMANDER: He's a sorcerer, that one. He reads the thoughts in my brain. Our fuel supply all but gone and he stays out of reach.
DECIUS: We are beaten. Can it be true? The Praetor's finest and proudest flagship beaten.
COMMANDER: Perhaps we can yet save your Praetor's pride for him. More debris into the tubes. Decius, do we have the old-style nuclear warheads aboard?
DECIUS: Yes Commander, but only for self-destruction.
COMMANDER: Place one with the debris. Proximity fuse.
DECIUS: Yes, Commander. At once.
KIRK: Captain to Sickbay.
MCCOY [OC]: McCoy here.
KIRK: Casualties?
MCCOY [OC]: Twenty two so far. Mainly radiation burns, mostly from the ship's outer areas. Could have been much, much worse, Captain.
KIRK: Thank you, Doctor. (the lights come back on) Report, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Nuclear device of some kind, sir. Our phasers detonated it less than one hundred metres away.
KIRK: Ship damage?
SPOCK: Mainly overloads and circuit burnouts.
KIRK: Weapons status?
SCOTT [OC]: We've only the forward phaser room, Captain.
KIRK: Fully operable, Scotty?
SCOTT [OC]: Yes, sir. But Specialist Tomlinson is manning it alone. No standby crew available.
STILES: Sir, my first assignment was in weapons control.
KIRK: Go. Lieutenant Uhura, take over navigation.
UHURA: Yes, Captain.
SPOCK: We have engine power now, Captain, if you'd like to move off and make repairs.
KIRK: Maybe we can pull them back to our side of the Neutral Zone. Hold our position. Play dead.
All this shows is that a damaged Enterprise can be threatened by a nuclear weapon of unknown yield, and unknown design.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by sonofccn » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:49 pm

@Lucky

First and foremost the fact the Romulan commander expected the bomb to destroy the Enterprise is clear evidence a thermal nuclear bomb, which is rather contrained in its output, can be used as a adhoc weapon against a constitution class starship.

Second skimming through the transcript the damage Spock was attempting to repair was for the phasers which overloaded earlier in combat. I see nothing to indicate shields were badly weakened. If I am over looking the crucial section I apologize and ask to be shown where it states otherwise.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:51 am

The Enterprise had been hit earlier with a plasma torpedo (albeit one that was starting to dissipate at it's effective range limit), thus weakening the shields and probably doing a lot more damage. After nine hours, it's hard to say how much the shields were recharged, especially given that the ship was in "silent running" mode, so I doubt much in the way of repairs were possible without risking an energy signal like the one Spock sent out when he reached up and accidentally hit a button on his console.

So no, it's not likely the Enterprise was up to full strength when the nuke went off in her face. Also, here's the thing of it. When we see the Enterprise after the the explosion went off, she is severely knocked to one side:

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ror267.jpg

The explosion must be pretty damn powerful to effect a nearly million ton ship from 100 meters away in the near vacuum of space like (we see the bridge tilt rather violently and in less than a second) Also note that in both the original and Remastered versions, the ship has no obvious exterior damage to the hull.
-Mike

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:50 am

sonofccn wrote:@Lucky

First and foremost the fact the Romulan commander expected the bomb to destroy the Enterprise is clear evidence a thermal nuclear bomb, which is rather contrained in its output, can be used as a adhoc weapon against a constitution class starship.

Second skimming through the transcript the damage Spock was attempting to repair was for the phasers which overloaded earlier in combat. I see nothing to indicate shields were badly weakened. If I am over looking the crucial section I apologize and ask to be shown where it states otherwise.
Balance of Terror wrote: SULU: Phaser overload. Control circuit burnout. 

(Spock goes under his station to put out the flames)
That shows more then just phasers are down. Spock is the science officer.
Balance of Terror wrote: KIRK: Yeoman. Affirmative. Continue log entries. 

RAND: Yes, sir. 

SULU: Ten seconds to impact. Captain, It's dissipating, sir. 

STILES: It must have a range limit. 

(Rand stands as close as humanly possible to Kirk) 

SULU: Five, four, three, two, one. Impact! 

(Everyone gets thrown about a bit)
The Enterprise takes damage.
Balance of Terror wrote: (The lights are being dimmed and systems shut down as they rig for silent running) 

SPOCK: Captain, I must make further repairs on the transfer coil. It's giving out again. 

KIRK: All right, Mister Spock, work quietly.
Here we see they are powering down systems in order to be harder to see.
Balance of Terror wrote: (Spock carefully closes the cover on his repairs, and is reaching up to his station to help himself up when he accidentally touches a button, turning on a system) 

STILES: What? 

KIRK: It's all right. It's all right.
Balance of Terror wrote: COMMANDER: Perhaps we can yet save your Praetor's pride for him. More debris into the tubes. Decius, do we have the old-style nuclear warheads aboard? 

DECIUS: Yes Commander, but only for self-destruction. 

COMMANDER: Place one with the debris. Proximity fuse.
A nuclear warhead of undefined design, and yield, but it was intended as a self-destruct.
Balance of Terror wrote: SULU: More wreckage, sir, scattering across our path. 

KIRK: Cease fire. 

SPOCK: Debris on our scanners. 

KIRK: Analysis, quickly. 

SPOCK: Same type as before, sir, except, one metal-cased object! 

KIRK: Helm, hard over. Phasers, fire point-blank. 

STILES: Phasers, fire! 

(There's a big explosion, everyone gets thrown across the Bridge. Enterprise hangs crooked and motionless in space.)
Balance of Terror wrote: KIRK: Captain to Sickbay. 

MCCOY [OC]: McCoy here. 

KIRK: Casualties? 

MCCOY [OC]: Twenty two so far. Mainly radiation burns, mostly from the ship's outer areas. Could have been much, much worse, Captain. 

KIRK: Thank you, Doctor. (the lights come back on) Report, Mister Spock? 

SPOCK: Nuclear device of some kind, sir. Our phasers detonated it less than one hundred metres away. 

KIRK: Ship damage? 

SPOCK: Mainly overloads and circuit burnouts. 

KIRK: Weapons status? 

SCOTT [OC]: We've only the forward phaser room, Captain. 

KIRK: Fully operable, Scotty? 

SCOTT [OC]: Yes, sir. But Specialist Tomlinson is manning it alone. No standby crew available. 

STILES: Sir, my first assignment was in weapons control. 

KIRK: Go. Lieutenant Uhura, take over navigation. 

UHURA: Yes, Captain. 

SPOCK: We have engine power now, Captain, if you'd like to move off and make repairs. 

KIRK: Maybe we can pull them back to our side of the Neutral Zone. Hold our position. Play dead.
Why would phasers detonate a nuclear bomb of any known design, they would not. They would destroy it

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by sonofccn » Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:44 pm

Lucky wrote:That shows more then just phasers are down. Spock is the science officer.
This would presumbly be that tranfer coil he works on later. Science officer or not he likely was the most qualified to work on it at that moment, IIRC Scotty was down in engineering.
The Enterprise takes damage.
Possibly. How much, if any, is unfortantly not made clear.
Here we see they are powering down systems in order to be harder to see.
Yes.
A nuclear warhead of undefined design, and yield, but it was intended as a self-destruct.
Yes we don't know anything of the bomb except its a nuclear but I don't see any reason to assume its on par with an anti-proton beam that could pierce through a planet.
Why would phasers detonate a nuclear bomb of any known design, they would not. They would destroy it
Why? The bomb was already armed and rigged for proximity, the only issue would be protecting the actual warhead from being flash vaporized for the split second needed to trigger a fusion explosion.

I agree its odd the phasers triggered the bomb instead of simply turning it to vapor but that in itself has little to do with the exact design they employ to generate a thermalnuclear explosion.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by sonofccn » Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:50 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:The Enterprise had been hit earlier with a plasma torpedo (albeit one that was starting to dissipate at it's effective range limit), thus weakening the shields and probably doing a lot more damage.
Well for me sir the issue is we have no idea how much damage that shot inflicted. I didn't get the impression of serious damage from that strike, not enough at least to warrent assuming shields are at some minute fraction of their normal power.
Mike DiCenso wrote:The explosion must be pretty damn powerful to effect a nearly million ton ship from 100 meters away in the near vacuum of space like


Yeah your right she does list to the side, or the camera fell sideways :), which should take a helluva lot of force just to accomplish never mind an omnidirectional bomb dissipating over a 100 meters. Almost makes me wish I stayed awake in physics class, but point taken sir. ;)

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