Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

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Lucky
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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:51 pm

Lucky wrote:Universal Translators read thought. Strange, but they are psionic technology it seems.
Praeothmin wrote: Not in ENT and not in TNG they don't...
What makes you think that?
Metamorphosis wrote:COCHRANE: What's the theory behind this device?
KIRK: There are certain universal ideas and concepts common to all intelligent life. This device instantaneously compares the frequency of brainwave patterns, selects those ideas and concepts it recognises, and then provides the necessary grammar.
SPOCK: Then it translates its findings into English.

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Praeothmin
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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:24 pm

Well, in ENT, Hoshi had to at least have some examples of written or spoken words to be able to create a "translation matrix", so in ENT, the UT did not read minds...

In TNG's "Ensign of Commands", the UT could not translate the Sheliak language...

The Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual says that the Universal Translator is an "extremely sophisticated computer program" which functions by "analyzing the patterns" of an unknown foreign language, starting from a speech sample of two or more speakers in conversation. The more extensive the conversational sample, the more accurate and reliable is the "translation matrix," enabling instantaneous conversion of verbal utterances or written text between the alien language and American English / Federation Standard. (from Wikipedia, here)

And what about all the times Klingons whom we've never seen before are spoken too, and then turn around and speak untranslated Klingon?
Are we to believe every Klingon speaks English?
Are we to believe that the UT sometimes reads minds, but sometimes doesn't?

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:30 pm

Praeothmin wrote: Well, in ENT, Hoshi had to at least have some examples of written or spoken words to be able to create a "translation matrix", so in ENT, the UT did not read minds...
It was an early version/prototype.

Wasn't it still being designed and perfected during the series?
Praeothmin wrote: In TNG's "Ensign of Commands", the UT could not translate the Sheliak language...
You are saying that because something has limits it does not work as stated?

You are using an extremely alien and xenophobic race as an example? What makes you think they don't have tech to disable such devices?
Praeothmin wrote: The Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual says that the Universal Translator is an "extremely sophisticated computer program" which functions by "analyzing the patterns" of an unknown foreign language, starting from a speech sample of two or more speakers in conversation. The more extensive the conversational sample, the more accurate and reliable is the "translation matrix," enabling instantaneous conversion of verbal utterances or written text between the alien language and American English / Federation Standard. (from Wikipedia, here)
That is just what Star Fleet intelligence wants you to think.

Praeothmin wrote: And what about all the times Klingons whom we've never seen before are spoken too, and then turn around and speak untranslated Klingon?
Are we to believe every Klingon speaks English?
Are we to believe that the UT sometimes reads minds, but sometimes doesn't?
The bridge doors are precedence for the computer only doing things when the person wants it to.

Why shouldn't the Klingon have UT technology?

I seem to recall Klingons learning English just to be good hosts/assholes/show off to Riker.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Picard » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:51 am

Praetho, Technical Manuals are not canon, and I don't remember giving anyone allowance to use non-canon materials in OP. While that theory is possible, it is no more valid than any theory made here.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Picard578

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:44 pm

The I still have the Klingons being translated only sometimes, or we then must believe that all Klingons speak english, which is ridiculous at best...

We have two canon models of the UT, one reads minds, the other needs linguistic analysis to function...

The mind reader should always translate perfectly, while the latter may be imperfect to the point of sometimes not being able to translate older words, or words with stranger, more cultural, meaning...

I think the latter is more believable, based on the evidence we have...

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Picard » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:36 pm

TNG and DS9 Klingons are not good example, since they are Federation's allies and some of them probably learn English anyway.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Praeothmin » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:07 pm

Picard wrote:TNG and DS9 Klingons are not good example, since they are Federation's allies and some of them probably learn English anyway.
Some is not all, and most Klingons have shown this once or twice...

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Picard » Sun Dec 18, 2011 6:56 pm

And there are also Ferengi and such...

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:35 pm

Praeothmin wrote: The I still have the Klingons being translated only sometimes, or we then must believe that all Klingons speak english, which is ridiculous at best...
There is precedence in the Turbo lift doors on the bridge for the Federation using such A.I., Doors on the E-D only open if the person is going to leave. I think this is common for all UFP doors.
A Matter of Honnor wrote: (The Bridge is also dimly lit with red light. Support struts form obstacles) 

RIKER: Commander William Riker of the Starship Enterprise. 

KARGAN: That is incorrect. 

RIKER: I don't understand. 

KARGAN: You are Commander William Riker, First Officer of the Klingon cruiser, the Pagh. Or do you intend to disobey Federation orders? 

RIKER: I have no such intention, sir. 

KARGAN: Exactly where are your loyalties, Commander? 

RIKER: I'm afraid I still don't understand, sir. 

KARGAN: This ship is equipped with our best weapons and our finest warriors. Although we are on a peaceful mission, we are ready to go into battle instantly. I know I can count on every Klingon warrior in this crew to serve and die in that battle. So I ask you again, Commander Riker. Where are your loyalties? 

RIKER: I have been assigned to serve this ship and to obey your orders. And I will do exactly that. 

KARGAN: Will you take an oath to that effect? 
RIKER: I just did. 

KLAG: (in Klingon) Do not believe him! He lies! 

KARGAN: (in Klingon) Speak in their language. This is your Second Officer, Lieutenant Klag. 

RIKER: Is there something you wanted to say to me, Lieutenant? 

KLAG: Yes sir. I do not believe you. 

RIKER: Then I take it you challenge my authority over you. 

KLAG: Correct. 
RIKER: And your position on this, Captain? 

KARGAN: I would say it your first command decision. 

(Riker looks around and thumps Klag in the stomach before throwing him on the floor, then kicking him down before he can get up again, and finally ramming his head into a computer panel. Lots of sparks. Kargan laughs)

RIKER: My oath is between Captain Kargan and myself. Your only concern is with how you obey my orders. Or do you prefer the rank of prisoner to that of Lieutenant? 

KLAG: I will take your orders. 

KARGAN: And you, Commander Riker, will obey my orders. 
RIKER: Of course, Captain Kargan.
Sure looks like Klingons know English, or what ever Riker speaks.
Praeothmin wrote: We have two canon models of the UT, one reads minds, the other needs linguistic analysis to function...
The model that does not read minds is an early model/prototype that was designed and built by humans only.

The model that does read minds is a model that is used years later, and was designed and built by the United Federation of Planets.

Praeothmin wrote: The mind reader should always translate perfectly, while the latter may be imperfect to the point of sometimes not being able to translate older words, or words with stranger, more cultural, meaning...
No it should not always work perfectly as we have examples of species that have a resistance to having their minds read, and it is a known technology so groups would have countermeasures. What you want is a no limits fallacy.

Of the times the UT did not work one of those times it still gave a perfect translation, but the race only seemed to speak in metaphor, and the other times the life forms are completely alien.
Praeothmin wrote: I think the latter is more believable, based on the evidence we have...
So you claim Spock lied for no reason, prove it.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Dec 19, 2011 2:20 pm

Lucky wrote:There is precedence in the Turbo lift doors on the bridge for the Federation using such A.I., Doors on the E-D only open if the person is going to leave. I think this is common for all UFP doors
You mean, like motion detectors on modern doors?
Sure looks like Klingons know English, or what ever Riker speaks.
No, it looks like THESE Klingons spoke English, you know, the ones who were selected to be part of this Officer's exchange program?
And where was Riker's UT then?
He was wearing his communicator, so why didn't it translate then?
No it should not always work perfectly as we have examples of species that have a resistance to having their minds read, and it is a known technology so groups would have countermeasures. What you want is a no limits fallacy.
Since when have Klingons been hard to read telepathically?
So you claim Spock lied for no reason, prove it.
I can't prove he lied, but it sure seems like he was wrong...
He's been wrong before, you know... :)

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:11 pm

I wanted to edit my previous post, but I felt this was basically a whole new, although short, reply...

Lucky, I concede that the UT does indeed work by reading minds...
I fail to find anything against it, except the utter stupidity and wank of it, and the fact that there are many small details that bug me about it, but it is still canon, so there...

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Picard » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:19 pm

Praeothmin wrote:I wanted to edit my previous post, but I felt this was basically a whole new, although short, reply...

Lucky, I concede that the UT does indeed work by reading minds...
I fail to find anything against it, except the utter stupidity and wank of it, and the fact that there are many small details that bug me about it, but it is still canon, so there...
No, it can't read minds. It can interpret electrical signals in minds, at best, and given that almost all humanois originated from single species, similar brain signals will have similar meaning. But there may be slight mistakes, and heavily different brain may result in inability to translate language.

It might also require spoken language sample in order to be useful.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by KSW » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:18 am

Lucky wrote:Universal Translators read thought. Strange, but they are psionic technology it seems.
Or just sensors and MRI's, PET-scanners etc.
In contrast, telepathy is more a mystical phenomenon that they can't explain.

In DS9's "Little Green Men," Quark showed that the UT was a little thing implanted in a person's ear, that allows them to hear and speak in foreign languages. This doesn't "read thought" from a distance, it's hooked right into their brain, and presumably moves their lips etc. while they talk; so while Quark was speaking normal Ferrenginese to the 1937 humans, it came out as English.

Meanwhile on DS9 station, a new aliens species came to the station from the Gamma Quadrant, and the station's computer had to observe them for a while in order to learn more and more of their language, by observing their speech and actions together; and then after a few days or so, everyone was able to communicate with them normally.
This indicated that the DS9 crew's UT implants were wirelessly connected to the station's LAN, in order to automatically download automatic updates of language-files as soon as they became available.

MauriceWindows wrote:Warp-drive involves stretching and bending space, so as to move the space around the ship rather than vice-versa, and to make the ship longer in comparison to normal space so as to cheat relativity by multiplying the ship's velocity by thousands of times-- i.e. so that the ship is actually moving only about 0.1C in terms of relativity, but actually it's moving over 1000C.
Of course there are factors which limit this speed, but they keep getting better at it.
In order to go to warp they need to reach a certain threshold like breaking the sound barrier, and the speed they need to get to is light speed or near enough.
No, they can just go from full stop to warp in one move.
They often cruse at speeds like .7c as if it is nothing.
And? If they can go faster than light, then obviously they can go slower. They're still bending space to get there, even if they're not actually stretching the ship at that point.
MauriceWindows wrote:Deflectors/tractors simply move objects outside the ship in the same manner, and phasers do so in a disruptive manner.
Well this is seemingly how they are described to work at least.
That's just basic physics, i.e. imparting energy to matter-- in this case kinetic energy i.e. motion.
MauriceWindows wrote:Subspace communications would seem to produce a small wormhole, which only carries information, but does so over long distances.

Sensors might work in a similar manner.
Where are you getting this information?

Star Trek's official website:
subspace radio

Method of communication that sends electromagnetic signals through subspace, boosting the signal's range and speed to translight velocities. Subspace signals can carry audiovisual data as well as text messages. Within Federation boundaries, a network of relay stations augments subspace communication and amplifying and rerouting messages as needed.
That's also the only thing that would explain the speed of the transmissions, and over the distances covered; nothing else even comes close. During on episode, Riker talks to Quark on DS9, requiring a relay-station, and it's a real-time conversation without the slightest perceptible delay.
MauriceWindows wrote:Torpedoes are just that: i.e. self-propelled warheads which are launched at warp-speed, and which generate a warp-field/shield to sustain the speed and to penetrate enemy-shields, and then detonate either on impact or in proximity.
Well we actually don't know how torpedos travel at FTL speeds. We only know they do.
It's just common sense. To go to warp on the torpedo's own power would drain it, reducing both speed and firepower.
However any object needs a space-warp to either go to FTL speed, or maintain it, and both shields and space-warps work on the same principle.
Torpedos have shield penetrating technologies built into them as we see in Generations.
They just matched the shield-frequencies, allowing it to pass through by cancellation.
Torpedos try to embed themselves into the hull, and have been known to drill into planets.
Well of course, they're designed to penetrate the hull and explode inside of the ship, doing the most damage that way. In "Starship Down" (DS9) for example, we see a Dominion torpedo penetrates right through the Defiant's hull-- but fortunately it was defective and didn't explode, so Quark as able to pick the lock on the chassis and disarm it.
MauriceWindows wrote:Transporters are the most difficult technology to explain, but it might use a short-range version of the subspace communications and warp-technology in order to scan an object from one place to another by creating a holographic 3-D image of the object at the landing-site, and gradually interchanging it by tractor-beam with the real one through the "wormhole" using Quantum-computing to control the massive calculations and information-processing required.
Since this involves the transportation of matter rather than information, it can only be done over a short distance in comparison to the light-years involving communications.
There is some sort of matter to energy thing going on, then you get sent through subspace, and then there is a energy to matter thing going on.
I doubt it. You're talking about an awful lot of M-E conversion to contain-- and move: over a 2000 megaton's bomb's worth, to transport a single average-sized person.
That's more than I can accept to be handled by a teeny little transporter-pad.
Rather, particles would need to stay intact, and the only energy transmitted would be the weak binding-forces between atoms and electrons. Even the strong nuclear forces would be too immense to disassemble the core-particles and then re-assemble them at the terminus. Treknology is powerful, but not that powerful.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by KSW » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:19 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Lucky wrote:There is precedence in the Turbo lift doors on the bridge for the Federation using such A.I., Doors on the E-D only open if the person is going to leave. I think this is common for all UFP doors
You mean, like motion detectors on modern doors?
Not exactly; for instance, in "The Naked Time," Spock goes into a conference-room because he's infected by the virus and losing control of his emotions, and the doors close behind him; then he sits crying on the floor leaning against the doors, which stay closed.

Clearly the doors can tell when a person is approaching them to go through them or not, while motion-sensors simply open the doors regardless. This would consider various factors, such as the person's speed, balance, direction-facing etc.

Sure looks like Klingons know English, or what ever Riker speaks.
Riker's from Alaska, so he talks like Palinese LOL

No, it looks like THESE Klingons spoke English, you know, the ones who were selected to be part of this Officer's exchange program?
And where was Riker's UT then?
He was wearing his communicator, so why didn't it translate then?
The translator goes inside the middle/inner ear (DS9, "Little Green Men") and moderates between it and the brain so you hear it translated properly (or as best it can; in "Darmok" for example, the aliens used so many "inside cliches" that they were unintelligible even though you could understand their words).

Riker's UT might have been removed for the mission.
So you claim Spock lied for no reason, prove it.
I can't prove he lied, but it sure seems like he was wrong...

He's been wrong before, you know... :
He's also lied before, as in saying he used "The Vulcan Death-Grip" when there's no such thing. Vulcan's wouldn't be much good in warfare if they couldn't lie.

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Re: Star Trek technology mechanics and physics background

Post by Lucky » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:32 pm

Praeothmin wrote: You mean, like motion detectors on modern doors?
No, I mean doors that have to either have the script, or read the character's minds.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... adingDoors



Praeothmin wrote: I wanted to edit my previous post, but I felt this was basically a whole new, although short, reply...

Lucky, I concede that the UT does indeed work by reading minds...
I fail to find anything against it, except the utter stupidity and wank of it, and the fact that there are many small details that bug me about it, but it is still canon, so there...
I agree that it's kind of odd that they have mind reading technology, but use it in such a limited fashion. It certainly makes one wonder why future Janeway needed cybernetic implants to control a ship with her thoughts for example, and conversely it would explain how ships are so easily piloted with the seemingly clusy controls we see.

We know from just about every episode of Star Trek that doors only open if you want to leave through them. The doors seem to know what the characters are going to do before the characters.

We know from DS9 that tricorders scan for psychic energy in Muse.

Voyager constantly monitored the crew's brain waves as seen in Cathexis.

Spock said the Universal Translator reads minds, and as the ship's science officer he should have a general idea as to what he is talking about.

Mind reading technology would explain how hand phasers are aimed so easily.

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