Star Trek Low end

[Praeothmin]

Mike, Let's not forget how, in RotS, the black clouds from flack bursts showed the opening fight happened in high atmosphere, and how most weapons had blast radiuses, in rarified atmosphere, of less than 100 meters...
How would that compare to standard SW wank, or the ICS?

[Mike DiCenso]

There are plenty of lower limits in Trek, but they aren't what some people are claiming they are, and the ones cited here, with only one exception are not real lower limits.
-Mike

[Lucky]

There are plenty of lower limits in Trek, but they aren't what some people are claiming they are, and the ones cited here, with only one exception are not real lower limits.
-Mike

That is the point of this thread. Find and identify what the low end events are said to be and what events are in fact lower showings.

[Lucky]

Battle Lines
KIRA: We're being scanned by one of the satellites. I don't like this. It's heading toward us. 

SISKO: Shields up! 

KIRA: Reading a significant energy build-up in the satellite. Six hundred megawatts, nine hundred, it's firing. 
(BANG) 

KIRA: Shields are down. Forward thrusters are gone. We're losing power. 

SISKO: Attempting to compensate with secondary boosters. 

KIRA: Impulse generators failing. 

SISKO: Hold on, we're going down. Check contingency fuel cell output. 

KIRA: Holding at sixty-five percent. 

SISKO: Doctor, watch the hull temperature. 

BASHIR: Aye, sir. 

KIRA: Stabilising attitude control response. 

SISKO: Pitching up to twenty degrees. 

BASHIR: Hull temperature nine hundred C, nine fifty, eleven hundred. 

KIRA: We're holding profile. 

BASHIR: Twelve hundred C. Thirteen. 

SISKO: Ejecting antimatter pod. 

KIRA: Pitching up to sixty degrees. Prepare for final braking manoeuvres. 

SISKO: Brace for impact! 
(Blackout, thud, crash)

Later
[Runabout Rio Grande]

(They've arrived at the brown planet)
O'BRIEN: It's some kind of artificial satellite system. That's what our probe must have picked up.
DAX: Our sensors are reading lifeforms on the surface, Chief. I think some of them are human.
O'BRIEN: If the ship's down there, why wouldn't the transponder be sending out a
DAX: We're being scanned
O'BRIEN: Increasing orbital altitude.
DAX: What are you thinking?
O'BRIEN: The only thing that could block out a transponder signal is a broad band damping field. That requires a low level satellite system like this one. Suddenly we're being scanned by these satellites, so
DAX: Maybe they had something to do with our missing runabout.
O'BRIEN: Exactly. See, they're putting out a mutual induction field that would block out ninety nine percent of all transmissions to and from the surface.
DAX: Is there any way for us to get a comm. line through the field?
O'BRIEN: Well, I've got one percent to work with, don't I?

What Happened
The event shows that the Runabout was shot with at least a giga-joule or two, was damaged and for some odd reason magically fell out of orbit, heading straight for the planet.

It was stated to have been destroyed, but damage was minimal, and appears to have mostly been from the crash.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:US ... troyed.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... =12&page=4

Since this episode takes place in the Delta Quadrant the weapon may have been a Phased Polaron beam which at this time would ignore Federation shields.

edit:
The satellites had active ECM systems.

Conclusion
Edited 10-29-11
Do to known shield ignoring weapons used in the area, damping fields, and ECM blocking scans we can not tell how much energy hit the Runabout if any at all, nor can we tell if the Runabout's shields absorbed/deflected any of the energy.

If we knew what type of weapon fired on the Runabout we could say one way or another as to how effective the shields were in this case, but we don't know what the weapon was. It could have been a polaron beam, a weaponized energy damping field, a torpedo, disruptors, or phasers.

[Praeothmin]

Since this episode takes place in the Delta Quadrant the weapon may have been a Phased Polaron beam which at this time would ignore Federation shields.

Hhmm... No!
Your quote specifically states the shields to be down after they were fired on, so it heavily implies the shot having taken down the shields, not that it ignored them...
Had it ignored them, they would not have been affected, as we saw in the fight against the Odissey...

[Lucky]

Since this episode takes place in the Delta Quadrant the weapon may have been a Phased Polaron beam which at this time would ignore Federation shields.

Hhmm... No!
Your quote specifically states the shields to be down after they were fired on, so it heavily implies the shot having taken down the shields, not that it ignored them...
Had it ignored them, they would not have been affected, as we saw in the fight against the Odissey...

Major Kira appears to me to be simply be reading off a list of disabled systems. I see no evidence of shield interaction with the weapon from the dialog, and don't recall any evidence of shield interactions from visuals.

KIRA: Reading a significant energy build-up in the satellite. Six hundred megawatts, nine hundred, it's firing. 

(BANG) 

KIRA: Shields are down. Forward thrusters are gone. We're losing power. 

SISKO: Attempting to compensate with secondary boosters. 

KIRA: Impulse generators failing. 

SISKO: Hold on, we're going down. Check contingency fuel cell output. 


To me it looks like we just have every system fail almost all at once making it impossible to tell when then and why the shields failed.

[sonofccn]

@Lucky

Did anyone in the episode in question actually state the shields were bypassed as they did when the Dominion ship's cut through thier shielding like a hot knife through butter? Is there any evidence the satellites were built by or have any relation to the Dominion whom IIRC were only known faction to employ Polaron weaponry?

[Lucky]

@Lucky

Did anyone in the episode in question actually state the shields were bypassed as they did when the Dominion ship's cut through thier shielding like a hot knife through butter? Is there any evidence the satellites were built by or have any relation to the Dominion whom IIRC were only known faction to employ Polaron weaponry?

SHEL-LA: Like you, they'll have to deal with the defence net, and that is beyond my influence.
SISKO: You don't control the satellites?
SHEL-LA: We're all prisoners on this moon.
SISKO: Then this is a penal colony
SHEL-LA: My immediate concern regards your partisanship. By your presence here, you'll be considered our allies. All your lives are in danger.

The Moon/Planet is in the Gamma quadrant near the wormhole which as I understand it is Dominion territory.

The Moon/Planet is a prison where advanced nano/biotechnology make it so that you will just come back to life should you die, but if you die you can't leave the planet/moon without dyeing. That sounds like something the Changelings would do.

We have no indication one way or the other if the weapon ignored Federation shields as far as I can tell. The Runabout is hit, and then every system seems to fail at once.

[Mike DiCenso]

The planet with the Guardian of Forever is on is in the Alpha or Beta quadrants, and is likely in Federation territory, but that doesn't mean that the Federation's technology includes the Guardian as part of it's technology base.
-Mike

[Lucky]

The planet with the Guardian of Forever is on is in the Alpha or Beta quadrants, and is likely in Federation territory, but that doesn't mean that the Federation's technology includes the Guardian as part of it's technology base.
-Mike

I never claimed the weapon or the prison were Dominion. I said they could be Dominion. Read my analysis of the scene, and you will note that the reason I state we have a major lack of information. Unlike many people I do not like to assume things.

We are never told who built the prison. It seems like something the Founders would and could do, but we don't know.

We don't know what the weapon on the satalite was. We are just given a yield, but we know some weapons are able to deal with shields better then others.

We don't know if the weapon ignored shields or if it interacted with shields in a more standard fashion. Everything just seems to fail at once, and then strange stuff happened.


We lack very important information if we want to be honest in our analysis.

[Praeothmin]

And they did not mention the shields being bypassed, and we hear about the shields being brought down after being shot at, so we can easily infer the shields to have been taken down by the weapon's fire...

[Lucky]

And they did not mention the shields being bypassed, and we hear about the shields being brought down after being shot at, so we can easily infer the shields to have been taken down by the weapon's fire...

You know you already said this, and I easily countered your response. Prove What ever the weapon shot interacted with the shield, or concede that we don't know if it did.
_____
Copied from a post I made above
_____
Major Kira appears to me to be simply be reading off a list of disabled systems. I see no evidence of shield interaction with the weapon from the dialog, and don't recall any evidence of shield interactions from visuals.

KIRA: Reading a significant energy build-up in the satellite. Six hundred megawatts, nine hundred, it's firing. 

(BANG) 

KIRA: Shields are down. Forward thrusters are gone. We're losing power. 

SISKO: Attempting to compensate with secondary boosters. 

KIRA: Impulse generators failing. 

SISKO: Hold on, we're going down. Check contingency fuel cell output. 


To me it looks like we just have every system failed almost all at once making it impossible to tell when then and why the shields failed.
_____

Among the systems that failed was the Runabout's computer.

Unlike the Odyssey the Runabout did not have time to get any data on the weapon.

[Mith]

Pegasus calcs are typically trotted out.

Also Starship Down', 'Parallels' or 'Patterns of Force' are a favorite whine of a poster called "the atom" on SB.com but i have not see them he just makes posts like this:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... stcount=81

Ah so this is where you hide out when you get banned from Spacebattles is it? Interesting. In any case, no I'm not talking about the Jem Hadar warhead that embeds itself in the hull. I'm talking about near the end when Miles has his engineering crew fit a quantum torpedo warhead inside an atmospheric probe, and then uses it to blow up a fully functional Jem Hadar ship in a single sub-kiloton explosion (hell I'd be amazed if the yield was more then half a ton).

Um, didn't that explosion occur inside a gas giant?

This isn't where I place ST firepower on average mind you. Just using it to point at how idiotic it is to cherry pick high showings to suit your purposes when so many other contradictions already exist.

Ah yes, because someone who repeatedly supports claims of uber teratons via nova cannons for 40k due to KE, is clearly someone who has a right to go around pointing at someone else's flaws.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Pegasus calcs are typically trotted out.

Also Starship Down', 'Parallels' or 'Patterns of Force' are a favorite whine of a poster called "the atom" on SB.com but i have not see them he just makes posts like this:

http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... stcount=81

Ah so this is where you hide out when you get banned from Spacebattles is it?

Actually i spend quite a bit of time just outside the little town of GO FUCK YOURSELF....:).

Interesting. In any case, no I'm not talking about the Jem Hadar warhead that embeds itself in the hull. I'm talking about near the end when Miles has his engineering crew fit a quantum torpedo warhead inside an atmospheric probe, and then uses it to blow up a fully functional Jem Hadar ship in a single sub-kiloton explosion (hell I'd be amazed if the yield was more then half a ton).

So still sticking with pure DET even against what the evidence tells us?..

This isn't where I place ST firepower on average mind you. Just using it to point at how idiotic it is to cherry pick high showings to suit your purposes when so many other contradictions already exist.

Nobody cares where you place it because you are a moron who does not understand his own material.

Personally my favorite example of your idiocy are the links to several explosions from weapons fire you calc using a DET modal and include one from starship down and a few from fights in DS9 and even one from parallels i think.

They all show the same type of explosion thats admittedly is not particularly impressive but what you fail to account for is that several of them are in space while starship down is in a atmosphere.

So you post what you think is awesome cutting material about ST firepower but really just confirm your position as king of all idiots by not realizing that a DET weapon/explosion behaves very differently in a atmosphere to how it behaves in space and these explosions are the same.

So all you are doing is showing that they are NOT typical DET weapons and as such totally destroying any claims or calcs involving DET.

[sonofccn]

And they did not mention the shields being bypassed, and we hear about the shields being brought down after being shot at, so we can easily infer the shields to have been taken down by the weapon's fire...

You know you already said this, and I easily countered your response. Prove What ever the weapon shot interacted with the shield, or concede that we don't know if it did.

We have no reason to assume the shot bypassed shields, nor any supporting evidence beyond your appeal that we can't know what happened. That is not a conducitive or convincing argument to make and is inferior to the far simplier and therefore the more likely to be correct theory that the ship's shield was simply battered down the old fashion way.