Ultritium

[Mr. Oragahn]

I'm reclaiming the off topic material that started to pop on page 16 of this thread, thanks to another of SWST's endless red herrings, and bringing it here.

And? A large chemical explosion was more powerful than the photon torpedo payload of the Enterprise.

Source? You keep repeating these things like a mantra, yet provide no citation of an episode, and very seldom do you provide dialog. When you do provide dialog you leave out the episode citation!

At any rate, it doesn't really matter since technobabble chemicals in Star Trek, like the ultritium explosives used in "A Time to Stand" have demonstrated some insanely powerful yeilds:

O'BRIEN: Ninety isotons of enriched ultritium should take out the entire storage facility and everything else within eight hundred kilometres.

SISKO: Which means we have to be nine hundred kilometres away before the bomb goes off.

This amount of explosives on it's own would be impressive if not for the fact that it nearly vaporized a multi-km asteroid and the facility on it as well:


The before (note the little JH battlebug for some sense of scale)...


...And after

So given what we know, this would be a yeild at least in the hundreds of gigatons range.
-Mike

Or Sisko knew that the chemicals would blow up the station and most likely generate a huge explosion due to the fuel, used for the shield generator among other things, would just make a huge firework. It's quite logical when you have the equivalent of perhaps days or fuel if not weeks, to power a shield which can repel typical Dominion ships.
If they used antimatter, they could logically house countless teratons worth of fuel.
Besides, the explosion during the episode don't fit with the super yield. The explosions were very tame, so clearly what blew up was something else in the asteroid, and it is that something else, which Sisko counted on, which was responsible of the giganormous splosion.

Continued:

Or Sisko knew that the chemicals would blow up the station and most likely generate a huge explosion due to the fuel, used for the shield generator among other things, would just make a huge firework. It's quite logical when you have the equivalent of perhaps days or fuel if not weeks, to power a shield which can repel typical Dominion ships.
If they used antimatter, they could logically house countless teratons worth of fuel.
Besides, the explosion during the episode don't fit with the super yield. The explosions were very tame, so clearly what blew up was something else in the asteroid, and it is that something else, which Sisko counted on, which was responsible of the giganormous splosion.

Mmm... I noticed that you also failed prey to one of SWST's baits.
I suggest we cut this part of the thread into one uniquely devoted to this event (and eventually ultritium as large), both to make for an easy point of reference and to keep that one clean.

The problem with your theory is that it does not match up with anything that O'Brien or Sisko or anyone else says. The facility they were bombing was a ketracell white resupply depot, not a starship repair and refueling one. The possibility that it could serve both purposes is not entirely out of consideration, but we get nothing that says that is the case:

GARAK: The ship ahead just transmitted a message to the asteroid storage facility. They're requesting to be resupplied with ketracel-white.

DAX: Looks like we've come to the right place.

But the facility in question is shielded, and that shield needs power. The fuel for that has to come from somewhere, and if anything, a Jem'hadar bug ship has shown that once it explodes, it can cause considerable damage to a Galaxy-class ship.
The shields would most likely have to be able to cope with at the very least such levels of attack, otherwise the precious ketracel-white would be at the mercy of any random suicidal action.

Nothing precludes the station from also serving as a fuel depot. In fact, it would be quite absurd not to have it also be capable of resupplying ships to some degree.

Plus it's a chemical substance we're talking about here. Not even fusion or antimatter. Perhaps the chemical substance might be able, in some fashion, to generate so much energy at some point that under certain conditions, said substance could then be subjected to some nuclear reaction, fission possibly.

We also know that from the visuals, when the containers started to explode, the damage was nowhere massive like it should have been if capable of threatening anything in a radius of 800 km.

Those facts cannot be ignored. So we can guess why Sisko wanted to put the ship as far out. Perhaps it's one of those side effects of blowing up such installations, something that due to subspace, could propel debris or shockwaves beyond what could be normally achieved.

This also ignores the statements from "The Ship", where a single hit from ultritium shells from the Jem'Hadar could destroy an attack ship that slammed into 90 meters of solid rock at hypersonic speeds, and still remained nearly perfectly intact.

The crash isn't necessarily impressive. Do we know for sure that the ship slammed into the rock that fast?
What about shields and SIF?
The fact that the rock cliff is still there, instead of being vaporized or at the very least pulverized because of the impact and heat due to the sudden mechanical stress, should give us a clue as to the real force of the impact itself, which I think is not as high as you may think it is.

As for the weapons, perhaps a part of their design made them more potent in that case. They were concussion weapons, clearly counting on coupling and momentum more than thermal energy. A ship that had crashed would certainly not be capable of coping with quakes as well as a pristine space ship, especially if, in the case of the presence of SIFs, those would be off and impossible to bring online.

But this is all academic as we've gone over most of this in the isotons thread anyway.

Indeed, we did. And as far as I recall, my points were still valid and not really contested in that thread. Especially the part about the initial explosions.

[Mike DiCenso]

As I said, most of the issues with ultritium were dealt with in threads like this one here.

The facility having some antimatter supplies, as I've said, is possible, but the ultritium still have to make a big enough explosion to get out of that receiving bay they were beamed into, and make it to where the antimatter is. Even then, the explosion from the ultritium canisters is likely to wind up dispersing that antimatter.

As for the JH attack ship ramming of the Odyssey, you presume that the suicide ship did not set up for that attack by overloading it's warp core, or dropping containment fields on the antimatter pods, ect. They are two entirely different things you are trying to compare there.

The crash isn't necessarily impressive. Do we know for sure that the ship slammed into the rock that fast?
What about shields and SIF?
The fact that the rock cliff is still there, instead of being vaporized or at the very least pulverized because of the impact and heat due to the sudden mechanical stress, should give us a clue as to the real force of the impact itself, which I think is not as high as you may think it is.

What about all of that? The ship had suffered a series of malfunctions that had killed the crew and sent the attack ship careening out of control into the planet. As for the forces involved, it's hard to say. Just merely slamming into 90 meters deep of rock is astounding, never mind anything else. A modern ship would just have crumpled like a cheap soda can, and not been buried very deep at all. You can see how fast the attack ship falls from orbit here. It takes less than 30 seconds from first detection by the runabout to impact.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Emergency thrusters, obviously. The state of the rock proves that the final impact wasn't huge. However, the 90 meters long embedding is more problematic. I'll have to check the script.
Also, what we "hear" is most likely some "sonic boom".

[Mike DiCenso]

It's possible that the attack ship managed some sort of an automated attempt at speed reduction, plus atmospheric drag would have slowed the ship considerably depending on the actual angle of entry, but it still would not be enough to account for the rock embedding.

Another factor that argues against your controlled thruster slowing is that the attack ship wound up upside down as well as embedding into the rock.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

It's possible that the attack ship managed some sort of an automated attempt at speed reduction, plus atmospheric drag would have slowed the ship considerably depending on the actual angle of entry, but it still would not be enough to account for the rock embedding.

Yes, but the problem is that it's very inconsistent. The speed and depth would have actually blasted said rock.
I'm not sure anything can be solved here.
It's just like if someone planted a hot knife into butter, and I don't know any Jem'hadar system that would approach... oh wait, didn't bugs actually cut through Klingon warships at low speeds with the same ease?
There seems to be a strong correlation there.

Another factor that argues against your controlled thruster slowing is that the attack ship wound up upside down as well as embedding into the rock.
-Mike

Not necessarily, since the control of the approach speed is not the same as roll.

[Mike DiCenso]

They do, but they do not survive to go on through the Vor'Cha, as is the case in the images here from "Tears of the Prophets":





So something else must be going on, like another deliberate self-destruct mechanism, as was speculated for the JH attack ship ramming of the Odyssey where the thing explodes on contact.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

I pretty much agree that the bug ships blow themselves up. Actually, one of the new posters at SBC presented evidence that the entire bug ship was vaporized at the moment it hit the Galaxy-class. With the suicide rungs against the Klingon ships, it's most likely a combination of both. It's possible, therefore, that the "knifing" system may have been engaged in the vain hope to minimize the impact effects. The mitigated effects could be attributed to the ship suffering damage before hand, like the lack of proper inertia dampening.
Then, I guess, the bug ship crash issue is solved. Sort of.

[2046]

Yes, the bug blows up . . . that's old news. Note the comment on "Frame 67" halfway down this page:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWweakhull.html

[Mike DiCenso]

So what we have here is that 90 isotons of ultritium can create an explosive yield sufficient enough to at least destroy a multi-km wide asteroid and the base constructed on it, and can generate sufficient energy beyond that to effect an area 1,600 km wide. Simple ultrititum artillery with single hit could destroy a Jem'Hadar attack ship that withstood not only an uncontrolled atmospheric entry, but slamming into solid rock at high speed, perhaps at hundreds of meters per second at the very least.
-Mike

[Lucky]

34-3400 Ultritium 283
Industrial chemical explosive used in mining applications intended for precision-charge patterns using standard microwave ignition devices

34-8349 Ultritium 342
High-yield version of standard industrial Ultritium. Used in terraforming applications. Activated with microwave pulse ignition devices. Intended for use when nuclear explosives are not desirable.

Would a photon grenade be considered a nuclear device?

[quote=""A Time to Stand""] O'BRIEN: Ninety isotons of enriched ultritium should take out the entire storage facility and everything else within eight hundred kilometres.

SISKO: Which means we have to be nine hundred kilometres away before the bomb goes off. [/quote]Enriched Ultritium would have a higher yield then the industrial version would it not?

[Jedi Master Spock]

So what we have here is that 90 isotons of ultritium can create an explosive yield sufficient enough to at least destroy a multi-km wide asteroid and the base constructed on it, and can generate sufficient energy beyond that to effect an area 1.600 km wide. Simple ultrititum artillery with single hit could destroy a Jem'Hadar attack ship that withstood not only a controlled atmospheric entry, but slamming into solid rock at high speed, perhaps at hundreds of meters per second at the very least.
-Mike

OK, so there are three issues in "A Time to Stand."

First, whether or not there are any munitions stored on the base that are also being taken into account when calculating the 800 km radius.

Second, the difference between visuals and dialogue. Dialogue is much more specific, but the explosion looks quite pedestrian compared to what would be required to affect things 800 km away.

I've just reviewed "The Ship," and there's an interesting point to consider: Sisko refers to "ten isotons of explosives" going off outside, but that doesn't actually necessarily mean that each shell is ten isotons.

I also just reviewed the DS9 weapons page and was reminded of the other ultritium yield reference: An earring with a reported 20 meter blast radius.

[Lucky]

So what we have here is that 90 isotons of ultritium can create an explosive yield sufficient enough to at least destroy a multi-km wide asteroid and the base constructed on it, and can generate sufficient energy beyond that to effect an area 1.600 km wide. Simple ultrititum artillery with single hit could destroy a Jem'Hadar attack ship that withstood not only a controlled atmospheric entry, but slamming into solid rock at high speed, perhaps at hundreds of meters per second at the very least.
-Mike

OK, so there are three issues in "A Time to Stand."

First, whether or not there are any munitions stored on the base that are also being taken into account when calculating the 800 km radius.

Second, the difference between visuals and dialogue. Dialogue is much more specific, but the explosion looks quite pedestrian compared to what would be required to affect things 800 km away.

I've just reviewed "The Ship," and there's an interesting point to consider: Sisko refers to "ten isotons of explosives" going off outside, but that doesn't actually necessarily mean that each shell is ten isotons.

I also just reviewed the DS9 weapons page and was reminded of the other ultritium yield reference: An earring with a reported 20 meter blast radius.

There are three known grades/types of Ultritium with different yields and uses. Do you honestly think that enriched or even 34-8349 Ultritium 342 grade Ultritium would have been handy? The Cardassians were mining Bajor after all so 34-3400 Ultritium 283 was likely what was used.

It feels like you ignored my post just above your's.

[Mr. Oragahn]

So what we have here is that 90 isotons of ultritium can create an explosive yield sufficient enough to at least destroy a multi-km wide asteroid and the base constructed on it, and can generate sufficient energy beyond that to effect an area 1.600 km wide. Simple ultrititum artillery with single hit could destroy a Jem'Hadar attack ship that withstood not only a controlled atmospheric entry, but slamming into solid rock at high speed, perhaps at hundreds of meters per second at the very least.
-Mike

I'll just point out that based on what we discussed above, my conclusion would significantly differ from yours.

[Jedi Master Spock]

So what we have here is that 90 isotons of ultritium can create an explosive yield sufficient enough to at least destroy a multi-km wide asteroid and the base constructed on it, and can generate sufficient energy beyond that to effect an area 1.600 km wide. Simple ultrititum artillery with single hit could destroy a Jem'Hadar attack ship that withstood not only a controlled atmospheric entry, but slamming into solid rock at high speed, perhaps at hundreds of meters per second at the very least.
-Mike

OK, so there are three issues in "A Time to Stand."

First, whether or not there are any munitions stored on the base that are also being taken into account when calculating the 800 km radius.

Second, the difference between visuals and dialogue. Dialogue is much more specific, but the explosion looks quite pedestrian compared to what would be required to affect things 800 km away.

I've just reviewed "The Ship," and there's an interesting point to consider: Sisko refers to "ten isotons of explosives" going off outside, but that doesn't actually necessarily mean that each shell is ten isotons.

I also just reviewed the DS9 weapons page and was reminded of the other ultritium yield reference: An earring with a reported 20 meter blast radius.

There are three known grades/types of Ultritium with different yields and uses. Do you honestly think that enriched or even 34-8349 Ultritium 342 grade Ultritium would have been handy? The Cardassians were mining Bajor after all so 34-3400 Ultritium 283 was likely what was used.

It feels like you ignored my post just above your's.

I didn't really have it in mind.

There may be some difference between industrial-grade and military-grade ultritium - but it shouldn't be more than an order of magnitude. We still have to work hard to maximize the total mass of ultritium in "A Time to Stand" and minimize it in "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night," since the first explosion is supposed to produce destructive effects in a sphere 40,000 times the radius as the second explosion (1.6 billion times the surface area, which is the relevant effect for determining intensity), and with respect to harder targets (ships vs. people).

[Mr. Oragahn]

Or go with the more logical route that explains why ultritium is not used for weapons much, despite how a silly small quantity of it would do wonders, and the fact that it is a substance bound to react chemically at first and which didn't blast the asteroid at once when the jars exploded, and simply assume that Sisko, for reasons that will remain forever untold, considered a safe zone based on criteria which must have to do with something else other than just ultritium's energy density.
Because for an armoured and shielded ship needing to find itself like 800 km away from the origin of an explosion, the yields you'll get are simply completely retarded, to say the least.
Perhaps the safety range is not just about the explosion, but some tactical advantage as to make sure that it won't be caught up by other Jem'hadar ships before Sisko's team can go to warp. Surely enough, blasting the local nest would quite piss off some of the bees.
All suggestions are good as long as we avoid the elephant in the room.