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[Praeothmin]

No.
If you had read my last post carefully, you would have noticed that I said that this event is non-conclusive.
Fact is that you know next to nothing.

Fact is, we know the E-D had a new Warp Core installed at a Starbase in "Phantams", just 6 episodes prior to "Pegasus".
All five episodes in between are stories where almost no ship combat occurred.
You want us to believe that:
1- While at this Starbase, the E-D DID NOT replenish its supplies, including torpedoes?

And

2- That in the five episodes between "Phantasms" and "Pegasus", the E-D spent half of their torpedoes?

That is ridiculous, to say the least...

You do not know how many torpedoes the Enterprise had avaible then. The only thing you know is, that the Enterprise has 250 torpedoes during the events of Conundrum. But this does not mean that she has always 250 torpedoes. Obviously after firing off torpedoes, the number decreases. And you do not know how many torpedoes were fired off since the last restoring. Insofar it is possible and must be considered that the Enterprise was very low on torpedoes.

Obviously, in the Federation territory, with Starbases available quite readily, it would be idiotic to think they never replenish their supplies...

Furthermore you do not know, why the asteroid had such a powerful magnetic field and how that could possibly affect the ability to destroy it.

You are right, we don't.
You'll notice, for this reason, that pretty much everyone here who calculated this event used a "standard" Nickel-Iron asteroid, and simply used the fragmentation calculations for asteroids of 5 and 9 km in diameter...

Insofar, there is no wanking at all. The deck is not stacked in favor of any franchise.
I repeat: The simple fact is that this event is non-conclusive. It can not be used to prove high fire power nor can it be used to prove low fire power.

No, the simple fact is that there is high evidence for the E-D to be fully, or a,most fully, stocked in everything, since they were in a starbase not too long before "Pegasus"...

Plus, even though this ability may have become possible only at the time of Voyager, it seems some ST ships have the ability to manufacture their own torpedoes...

Give a quote that states how many torpedos they had at the time.
To have the ability to fire most of their torpedos they would need at minimum 3.
Where are you getting the number 250 from?

See my response to WILGA, and the number of torpedoes comes from "Conundrum"...

I was thinking phaser rirlfes

There was a TNG episode where Geordi was firing a type-II Phaser rifle at a shuttle to make it appear as if it had been in a fight.
It only made burn marks on the shuttle, but they do not mention a setting.
Although Ensign Taurik, who is assisting LaForge, tells him he could reset the Phasers to a lower level not to harm the shuttle (so the Phaser was certainly not set to Stun).
And each shot was held for at least 4-5 seconds each time to do the damage...

[Lucky]

No.
If you had read my last post carefully, you would have noticed that I said that this event is non-conclusive.
Fact is that you know next to nothing.

Fact is, we know the E-D had a new Warp Core installed at a Starbase in "Phantams", just 6 episodes prior to "Pegasus".
All five episodes in between are stories where almost no ship combat occurred.
You want us to believe that:
1- While at this Starbase, the E-D DID NOT replenish its supplies, including torpedoes?

And

2- That in the five episodes between "Phantasms" and "Pegasus", the E-D spent half of their torpedoes?

That is ridiculous, to say the least...

You do not know how many torpedoes the Enterprise had avaible then. The only thing you know is, that the Enterprise has 250 torpedoes during the events of Conundrum. But this does not mean that she has always 250 torpedoes. Obviously after firing off torpedoes, the number decreases. And you do not know how many torpedoes were fired off since the last restoring. Insofar it is possible and must be considered that the Enterprise was very low on torpedoes.

Obviously, in the Federation territory, with Starbases available quite readily, it would be idiotic to think they never replenish their supplies...

Furthermore you do not know, why the asteroid had such a powerful magnetic field and how that could possibly affect the ability to destroy it.

You are right, we don't.
You'll notice, for this reason, that pretty much everyone here who calculated this event used a "standard" Nickel-Iron asteroid, and simply used the fragmentation calculations for asteroids of 5 and 9 km in diameter...

Insofar, there is no wanking at all. The deck is not stacked in favor of any franchise.
I repeat: The simple fact is that this event is non-conclusive. It can not be used to prove high fire power nor can it be used to prove low fire power.

No, the simple fact is that there is high evidence for the E-D to be fully, or a,most fully, stocked in everything, since they were in a starbase not too long before "Pegasus"...

Plus, even though this ability may have become possible only at the time of Voyager, it seems some ST ships have the ability to manufacture their own torpedoes...

Give a quote that states how many torpedos they had at the time.
To have the ability to fire most of their torpedos they would need at minimum 3.
Where are you getting the number 250 from?

See my response to WILGA, and the number of torpedoes comes from "Conundrum"...

So we don't know how many torpedos they had at the time according to you, and you are just assuming a full load?

Thanks I always wondered where that 250 torpedo number came from.

Voyager would imply that while possible it is difficult for at least Voyager to produce new torpedos, but is not easily done.

I was thinking phaser rirlfes

There was a TNG episode where Geordi was firing a type-II Phaser rifle at a shuttle to make it appear as if it had been in a fight.
It only made burn marks on the shuttle, but they do not mention a setting.
Although Ensign Taurik, who is assisting LaForge, tells him he could reset the Phasers to a lower level not to harm the shuttle (so the Phaser was certainly not set to Stun).
And each shot was held for at least 4-5 seconds each time to do the damage...

That episode at least shows that a shuttle craft is expected to survive phaser fire from phaser rifles.

[Praeothmin]

So we don't know how many torpedos they had at the time according to you, and you are just assuming a full load?

And you're assuming completely empty, like WILGA?
We know for a fact they were at a starbase, they weren't in ship battles between that time and "Pegasus" (or maybe 1, I'm not sure).
Why the heck should we assume they weren'T at least near maximum capacity?

Voyager would imply that while possible it is difficult for at least Voyager to produce new torpedos, but is not easily done.

Never said it was, and I'm reluctant to believe the E-D could do it, because Voyager gave us many advances the E-D didn't have...

But hey, if we're supposed to believe a starship coming out from a Starbase isn't fully stocked for no reason at all, then I will also believe the capacity to built torpedoes existed in the E-D for no reason at all...

[Lucky]

So we don't know how many torpedos they had at the time according to you, and you are just assuming a full load?

And you're assuming completely empty, like WILGA?
We know for a fact they were at a starbase, they weren't in ship battles between that time and "Pegasus" (or maybe 1, I'm not sure).
Why the heck should we assume they weren'T at least near maximum capacity?

You certainly like your straw man don't you.

I am saying that we can't know how many torpedos other then they had to have at least three since we are never told how many torpedos they have.

Voyager would imply that while possible it is difficult for at least Voyager to produce new torpedos, but is not easily done.

Never said it was, and I'm reluctant to believe the E-D could do it, because Voyager gave us many advances the E-D didn't have...

But hey, if we're supposed to believe a starship coming out from a Starbase isn't fully stocked for no reason at all, then I will also believe the capacity to built torpedoes existed in the E-D for no reason at all...

I have no problem with a ship being able to make it's own torpedos, but Voyager made it clear this isn't something they normally do, and may have to repurpose some of the cargo bays and such.

[Who is like God arbour]

No.
If you had read my last post carefully, you would have noticed that I said that this event is non-conclusive.
Fact is that you know next to nothing.

Fact is, we know the E-D had a new Warp Core installed at a Starbase in "Phantams", just 6 episodes prior to "Pegasus".
All five episodes in between are stories where almost no ship combat occurred.
You want us to believe that:
1- While at this Starbase, the E-D DID NOT replenish its supplies, including torpedoes?

And

2- That in the five episodes between "Phantasms" and "Pegasus", the E-D spent half of their torpedoes?

That is ridiculous, to say the least...

It is ridiculous to assume that the Enterprise had only five missions between the events in Phantasms and Pegasus because there were only five episodes.

It's ridiculous to assume that torpedoes are available at each and every starbase. Or do you think that cruise missiles and nukes are available at each and every naval base or ship yard only because navy ships are armed with them?

It is ridiculous to assume that Enterprise had 250 torpedoes and would need most of them if that makes the yield of one torpedo ridiculous low.

It is ridiculous, if we know that the torpedo yield is higher and that less than 100 torpedoes would be necessary to destroy such an asteroid, to assume that the Enterprise would have needed more. But that's what you are assuming if you are presuming - without a shred of evidence - that the Enterprise had 250 torpedoes then and most of them would have been used.

You do not know how many torpedoes the Enterprise had avaible then. The only thing you know is, that the Enterprise has 250 torpedoes during the events of Conundrum. But this does not mean that she has always 250 torpedoes. Obviously after firing off torpedoes, the number decreases. And you do not know how many torpedoes were fired off since the last restoring. Insofar it is possible and must be considered that the Enterprise was very low on torpedoes.

Obviously, in the Federation territory, with Starbases available quite readily, it would be idiotic to think they never replenish their supplies...

It would be idiotic to think that torpedoes are aviable at each and every starbase or that a ship like the Enterprise rushes back each and every time she fired off a few torpedoes.

It would be idiotic to think, if we know that the torpedo yield is higher and less than 100 torpedoes would be necessary to destroy such an asteroid, that the Enterprise would have needed more. But that's what you are assuming if you are presuming that the Enterprise had 250 torpedoes and most of them would have been used.

And it would be idiotic to strawman me. Because I never said that the Enterprise never replenish her supplies. But this does not mean that she goes back to a starbase where torpedoes are aviable every time she fires off a few torpedoes.

Furthermore you do not know, why the asteroid had such a powerful magnetic field and how that could possibly affect the ability to destroy it.

You are right, we don't.
You'll notice, for this reason, that pretty much everyone here who calculated this event used a "standard" Nickel-Iron asteroid, and simply used the fragmentation calculations for asteroids of 5 and 9 km in diameter...

And that considers the abnormal magnetic field how? Does a "standard" Nickel-Iron asteroid has such a magnetic field?

Insofar, there is no wanking at all. The deck is not stacked in favor of any franchise.
I repeat: The simple fact is that this event is non-conclusive. It can not be used to prove high fire power nor can it be used to prove low fire power.

No, the simple fact is that there is high evidence for the E-D to be fully, or a,most fully, stocked in everything, since they were in a starbase not too long before "Pegasus"...

There is no evidence that the Enterprise was in a starbase not too long before Pegasus.

All we know is, that she was at a starbase prior to the events of Phantasms. This episode happened around stardate 47225.7. And Pegasus happened around stardate 47457.1.

But we do not know how many time has passed between both stardates, if the Enterprise had gotten new torpedoes then, if the Enterprise had fired off torpedoes between both stardates or if she was at a starbase again and had gotten new torpedoes.

Plus, even though this ability may have become possible only at the time of Voyager, it seems some ST ships have the ability to manufacture their own torpedoes...

Irrelevant if the Enterprise was not able to do it then.

So we don't know how many torpedos they had at the time according to you, and you are just assuming a full load?

And you're assuming completely empty, like WILGA?

Thank you for distorting again what I have said.

I didn't say that they had no torpedoes at all (= completely empty).

I merely said that we can not assume that they had 250 torpedoes. It is possible that they fired off torpedoes since they got new torpedoes the last time. And it is not as though as if a ship like the Enterprise would at once fly back to a starbase to get new torpedoes only because she has only 100 torpedoes remaining. Usually 100 torpedoes are more than enough.

And let's look at Nemesis: I haven't seen 250 torpedoes from the Enterprise E in the battle against the Scimitar. And it is plausible to assume that a battleship like the Enterprise E has a greater arsenal than the Enterprise D. That means that the Enterprise E should be able to carry even more torpedoes. That we have not seen so many torpedoes in that battle and that they didn't had any torpedoes left after the battle can only mean, that their arsenal was not full when they entered the battle.

And here I could argue - like you - that in the prior movie they were at a starbase to repair the damage from the Borg. We haven't seen that they fired off any torpedoes since then. Ergo: We have to assume that they had a full complement of torpedoes when they began the battle. They fired off all torpedoes. But there were less than 250 torpedoes fired off. Ergo: The Enterprise E has a smaller arsenal than the Enterprise E.

That's your logic.

My logic is simple: We do not know how many torpedoes both Enterprises had because they could have fired off torpedoes in prior missions and didn't had time to get new torpedoes.

[Picard]

It is ridiculous to assume that Enterprise had 250 torpedoes and would need most of them if that makes the yield of one torpedo ridiculous low.

If you assume that they needed vaporization - which is actually realistic when you remember standard Federation hull strengths - then firepower per torpedo falls in line with other instances of actual torpedo fire.

http://startrek-vs-starwars.freeoda.com ... edoes.html

[Picard]

The asteroid was not a normal one, since it had a powerful magnetic field, and it was between 5 and 9 km wide.

Was it stated in episode? If it was, then it probably means that asteroid was nickel-iron.

[Praeothmin]

WILGA, we know for a fact that the E-D has 250 torpedoes from "Conundrum".
We know for a fact they were at a Starbase not long before "Pegasus" for an extended period of time, a Starbase which had the new Warp Core ready for the E-D.

Simple, logical and sensible assumption?
The Starbase which had a fully operational Warp Core also had a stock of torpedoes, and the E-D restocked there being repaired.

You want to compare the E-E?
Fine, the E-E's full capability was never specified on film, iirc, so we do not know how many torpedoes they had, while we do know how many the E-D normally has.
Since it fired far less then the 250 torpedoes the E-D has, than it would be logical to assume they have a smaller capacity...

And Riker, when commenting on the destruction of the asteroid, did not say "Well, with our torpedo complement being so low", he simply stated "It would take most of our torpedoes..."

It is ridiculous to assume that the Enterprise had only five missions between the events in Phantasms and Pegasus because there were only five episodes.

It is, however, much less ridiculous than to assume they fired over 100 of their torpedoes between "Phantams" and "Pegasus" when they didn't even fire that much in the entire TNG run...

It's ridiculous to assume that torpedoes are available at each and every starbase. Or do you think that cruise missiles and nukes are available at each and every naval base or ship yard only because navy ships are armed with them?

Faulty analogy.
When Earth-based USA ships get into combat as much as the E-D did in 7 years, and use as many cruise missiles and nukes as the E-D used her torpedoes, we'll talk again about the availability of the cruise missiles and nukes.
Nukes are not the equivalent of Photon Torpedoes in ST, because unlike nukes on Earth, the torpedoes are used much more often in ST, even against smaller ship, as seen in Voyager...
In fact, sometimes the torpedoes are used as kinetic impactors, as seen in ST V...

It is ridiculous, if we know that the torpedo yield is higher and that less than 100 torpedoes would be necessary to destroy such an asteroid, to assume that the Enterprise would have needed more.

And this is the problem.
You base the necessary number of torpedoes to destroy the asteroid on another firepower calculation, while instead this should be one of those calculations from which we get an average measurement...

And it would be idiotic to strawman me. Because I never said that the Enterprise never replenish her supplies. But this does not mean that she goes back to a starbase where torpedoes are aviable every time she fires off a few torpedoes.

And where did I say she does?
I said she had most likely replenished her stock in "Phantasms", not that she most ikely replenished her stock after each and every encounter...

And that considers the abnormal magnetic field how? Does a "standard" Nickel-Iron asteroid has such a magnetic field?

It doesn't, and I said you were right that not knowing how it affected this, we could not consider this magnetic field in the destruction's equation, and this is why people consider the asteroid simple Nickel-Iron when calculating its destruction...

There is no evidence that the Enterprise was in a starbase not too long before Pegasus.

There is more evidence of this then there is of your hypothesis that the E-D did numerous missions between the two shows and probably fired zillions of torpedoes...

This episode happened around stardate 47225.7. And Pegasus happened around stardate 47457.1.

Yup, and since we are not told how stardates work, and these dates are close to one another, then the simplest explanation is that "Pegasus" happened not long after the "Phantasms"...

My logic is simple: We do not know how many torpedoes both Enterprises had because they could have fired off torpedoes in prior missions and didn't had time to get new torpedoes.

Yes, so simple it ignores the premises seen in prior episodes, and uses a lot of unfounded assumptions...
At least mine uses onscreen evidence and inferred evidence as well...

I am saying that we can't know how many torpedos other then they had to have at least three since we are never told how many torpedos they have.

Do you even know what a "strawman" is?
I've explained to WILGA what the starbase had to do in this, while you, just like WILGA, like to assume that somehow, the E-D fired over half its existing torpedoes between Conundrum and "Pegasus", and in all its trips to Starbases, not one of them had torpedoes available, and that they never bothered to replenish their torpedo complement...

I have no problem with a ship being able to make it's own torpedos, but Voyager made it clear this isn't something they normally do, and may have to repurpose some of the cargo bays and such.

Which is why I said:

I'm reluctant to believe the E-D could do it, because Voyager gave us many advances the E-D didn't have...

[Who is like God arbour]

WILGA, we know for a fact that the E-D has 250 torpedoes from "Conundrum".

No.
We know for a fact that E-D had 250 torpedoed during the events of Conundrum. If at all, we can conclude that this is her normal complement of torpedoes. But even that is not supported by anything.

We do not know how many torpedoes the E-D had at any other given time.

We know for a fact they were at a Starbase not long before "Pegasus" for an extended period of time, a Starbase which had the new Warp Core ready for the E-D.

Yes

Simple, logical and sensible assumption?
The Starbase which had a fully operational Warp Core also had a stock of torpedoes, and the E-D restocked there being repaired.

The one does not follow out of the other.
Again: Do you think that each naval base or ship yard, where a naval ship can get a new engine, has also cruise missiles and nukes?

You want to compare the E-E?
Fine, the E-E's full capability was never specified on film, iirc, so we do not know how many torpedoes they had, while we do know how many the E-D normally has.
Since it fired far less then the 250 torpedoes the E-D has, than it would be logical to assume they have a smaller capacity...

See, that's is your problem. You have to check if the result of your chain of conclusions is plausible at all.

And it is not plausible that E-E has a smaller arsenal than E-D. The E-E at the time of Nemesis was a dedicated warship with at least 10 torpedo tubes and 16 phaser arrays. The E-D was a science and diplomatic ship with 2 torpedo tubes and 12 phaser arrays.

To assume that the E-E had a smaller arsenal than the E-D is less plausible than to assume that her arsenal was not full when she got into the battle with the Scimitar.

And Riker, when commenting on the destruction of the asteroid, did not say "Well, with our torpedo complement being so low", he simply stated "It would take most of our torpedoes..."

Yes.
But he also did not say » It would take most of our 250 torpedoes ... «
Insofar we still do not know how many torpedoes the E-D had then.

It is ridiculous to assume that the Enterprise had only five missions between the events in Phantasms and Pegasus because there were only five episodes.

It is, however, much less ridiculous than to assume they fired over 100 of their torpedoes between "Phantams" and "Pegasus" when they didn't even fire that much in the entire TNG run...

Why? As long as you do not know on what a mission they were, you can't say anything about their usage of torpedoes. Maybe they had to destroy an really big asteroid to save a colony in a earlier mission we have not seen on-screen.

And it is not necessary that they fired all the missing torpedoes between the events of Phantasms and Pegasus if the Enterprise did not get new torpedoes at starbase 84.

It's ridiculous to assume that torpedoes are available at each and every starbase. Or do you think that cruise missiles and nukes are available at each and every naval base or ship yard only because navy ships are armed with them?

Faulty analogy.
When Earth-based USA ships get into combat as much as the E-D did in 7 years, and use as many cruise missiles and nukes as the E-D used her torpedoes, we'll talk again about the availability of the cruise missiles and nukes.
Nukes are not the equivalent of Photon Torpedoes in ST, because unlike nukes on Earth, the torpedoes are used much more often in ST, even against smaller ship, as seen in Voyager...
In fact, sometimes the torpedoes are used as kinetic impactors, as seen in ST V...

That is ridiculous. Only because there are weapons that are even more powerful than nukes or that such weapons are used more often does not mean that nukes became harmless. Fact is that a photon torpedo is a WMD. A torpedo fired on an unprotected planet could kill billions. That's not something you have available at each and every starbase for distribution. That's something you have only available for distribution at secure locations deep inside your own territory.

It is ridiculous, if we know that the torpedo yield is higher and that less than 100 torpedoes would be necessary to destroy such an asteroid, to assume that the Enterprise would have needed more.

And this is the problem.
You base the necessary number of torpedoes to destroy the asteroid on another firepower calculation, while instead this should be one of those calculations from which we get an average measurement...

I base nothing on nothing. I simply warn that (1) we do not know how many torpedoes the E-D had then and (2) we do not know what would have been necessary to destroy that peculiar asteroid.

And it would be idiotic to strawman me. Because I never said that the Enterprise never replenish her supplies. But this does not mean that she goes back to a starbase where torpedoes are aviable every time she fires off a few torpedoes.

And where did I say she does?

After I wrote:

• • • • You do not know how many torpedoes the Enterprise had avaible then. The only thing you know is, that the Enterprise has 250 torpedoes during the events of Conundrum. But this does not mean that she has always 250 torpedoes. Obviously after firing off torpedoes, the number decreases. And you do not know how many torpedoes were fired off since the last restoring. Insofar it is possible and must be considered that the Enterprise was very low on torpedoes.

You replied:

• • • • Obviously, in the Federation territory, with Starbases available quite readily, it would be idiotic to think they never replenish their supplies...

See, I outright said that the torpedoes are restored but that it is possible that the E-D fired off a lots of torpedoes after the last time this happened. You replied that it would be idiotic to think they never replenish their supplies...

I said she had most likely replenished her stock in "Phantasms", not that she most ikely replenished her stock after each and every encounter...

Do you have any evidence for this? Any at all?

And that considers the abnormal magnetic field how? Does a "standard" Nickel-Iron asteroid has such a magnetic field?

It doesn't, and I said you were right that not knowing how it affected this, we could not consider this magnetic field in the destruction's equation, and this is why people consider the asteroid simple Nickel-Iron when calculating its destruction...

And that is wrong.

There is no evidence that the Enterprise was in a starbase not too long before Pegasus.

There is more evidence of this then there is of your hypothesis that the E-D did numerous missions between the two shows and probably fired zillions of torpedoes...

There is no evidence that the E-D got any torpedoes not too long before Pegasus.

There is enough evidence that the E-D had missions between the five missions we have seen on-screen since Phantasms. Prime example is the Pegasus episode itself because, when the Enterprise was called, she was already on a mission. And we have not seen that mission on-screen.

I never said zillions of torpedoes nor did I say that all the fired off torpedoes had to be fired off between Phantasms and Pegasus. It's not necessary if E-D did not get new torpedoes at starbase 84.

This episode happened around stardate 47225.7. And Pegasus happened around stardate 47457.1.

Yup, and since we are not told how stardates work, and these dates are close to one another, then the simplest explanation is that "Pegasus" happened not long after the "Phantasms"...

Depending how you define » happened not long after «.
As we do not know how star dates word, there can be days, weeks, months or even years between both stardates.

My logic is simple: We do not know how many torpedoes both Enterprises had because they could have fired off torpedoes in prior missions and didn't had time to get new torpedoes.

Yes, so simple it ignores the premises seen in prior episodes, and uses a lot of unfounded assumptions...

Which premises seen in prior episodes are ignored?
Which unfounded assumptions are used?

I mean, I'm not the one who assumes that the E-D has always a full complement of torpedoes. And I'm not the one who assumes that torpedoes, which are WMDs, are available at each and every starbase.

[Picard]

The one does not follow out of the other.
Again: Do you think that each naval base or ship yard, where a naval ship can get a new engine, has also cruise missiles and nukes?

Photon torpedoes seem to be standard issue heavy weapon for Federation starships, more akin to ship-to-ship missile than cruise missile, let alone nuclear missile. Federation ships are primarly designed for ship-to-ship combat, not planetary bombardment, and torpedoes are dual-purpose, but more oriented towards space combat.

Also, most civilizations probably have planetary shields, so danger of planetary bombardment is less than danger of nuclear war now.

[Who is like God arbour]

With other words: Do you really think that photon torpedoes - WMDs - are handled as carelessly as ship-to-ship missiles are handled today only because they have the same purpose as ship-to-ship missiles?

I mean: Purpose is one thing. The destruction potential is another thing. Something that, if it gets in the wrong hands, could kill billions - even with planetary shields - shouldn't be handled as something that could only destroy a modern ship.

Insofar I keep my opinion that it does not makes sense to transport torpedoes to each and every starbase and set up huge torpedo depots to be able to supply starships everywhere and always with new torpedoes after they have fired off a few torpedoes although they still have more than enough torpedoes.

Why should they do that?

Only because they want that each starship has always the maximum complement of torpedoes?

I think that they have a few locations where ships do get new torpedoes. They equip ships with them and these are supposed to suffice for a few years - or whatever the mission of the ship demands. If the ship needs new torpedoes, it returns to such a location.

That would explain why a ship like the E-D had 250 torpedoes on board during Conundrum. And it is possible that the maximum complement is even higher. Honestly: There was never a battle that lasted long enough to fire 250 torpedoes.

Does anyone really believe that StarFleet thinks that there may be an event where a ship like the E-D could need 250 torpedoes and that for such a case each Galaxy class starship is always equipped with at least 250 torpedoes?

Or does it makes more sense to assume that a ship is equipped with 250 torpedoes for more than one mission and that the ship is supposed to return to get new torpedoes not every time it has fired one or two torpedoes but only when it runs short on torpedoes?

[Picard]

You forget one thing - without reactants, photon torpedoes are just worthless casings, and reactants are loaded just before torpedoes are fired. Which means that they can store torpedoes wherever they want, noone will be able to make use of torpedoes unless he/she/it has access to reactant storage, warp core or starship. And if he has access to any of these, he will probably have access to photon torpedoes, making whole genocide thing possible without stealing. And starbases are not exactly unguarded, you know - security and defense systems are probably as good as those on starships.

Also, at any given point, entire Starfleet uses only one type of photon torpedoes, making it even more important for starbases to have large supply on-board, both for their own needs and to resupply starships. I also pointed out planetary shielding thing, and I will do it again.

Few photon torpedoes are most probably not going to make difference against any civilization that has access to warp drive for more than few years, and noone is going to expend torpedoes on bombing pre-warp civilizations out of existence. And that is supposing anyone succeeds in stealing torpedoes from starbase.

[Who is like God arbour]

You forget one thing - without reactants, photon torpedoes are just worthless casings, and reactants are loaded just before torpedoes are fired.

Is that so? Do you have evidence for that claim?

In the TNG episode » In Theory « the Enterprise D encounters a phenomena called » spatial deformations « caused by » dark matter «. When hit by this dark matter, parts of the ship momentarily phases out of normal space. This resulted in the death of a crewman. The floor was phased out of space when the crewman walked over it and phased into space again while the crewman was falling:

• • • 

When Data explained, what happened, Riker noted that they were lucky that none of these dark matter pockets passed through a photon torpedo casing or the matter/anti-matter containment pods.

This suggests that the photon torpedo casings are always loaded with anti-matter.

And, as you have seen in the VOY episode » Dark Frontier «, a photon torpedo does not have to be fired off to be able to explode.

Which means that they can store torpedoes wherever they want, noone will be able to make use of torpedoes unless he/she/it has access to reactant storage, warp core or starship. And if he has access to any of these, he will probably have access to photon torpedoes, making whole genocide thing possible without stealing.

The argumentation depends on the correctness of your prior assumption.

And starbases are not exactly unguarded, you know - security and defense systems are probably as good as those on starships.

Sure, but I do not speak of grand theft of torpedoes with attacking starships and fire and destruction etc. I'm speaking of conversion, embezzlement or larceny by trick.

If each starbase does not only have its own complement of torpedoes but at the same time a depot of torpedoes for distribution, thus the number of torpedoes is constantly changing although the starbase has not fired off one, it only increase the risk that such torpedoes will get on the black market sooner or later. It needs only one officer who sells them to people like Gaila or Kelsey. It increases the risk that a torpedo is nicked without anyone noticing until it is too late.

It is important that as few people as possible have access to such a dangerous weapon - especially at places where they could take such a weapon. That's more or less impossible on a starship that you can not leave. But at a starbase, where there is a continual coming and going, it is easier to smuggle a torpedo out, especially if such torpedoes are transported through the starbase all the time.

Also, at any given point, entire Starfleet uses only one type of photon torpedoes, making it even more important for starbases to have large supply on-board, both for their own needs and to resupply starships.

Why?
Why would the fact that Starfleet uses a standard torpedo makes it more important to have torpedo depots at each and every starbase instead of at a few secure locations?

I also pointed out planetary shielding thing, and I will do it again.

Few photon torpedoes are most probably not going to make difference against any civilization that has access to warp drive for more than few years, and noone is going to expend torpedoes on bombing pre-warp civilizations out of existence. And that is supposing anyone succeeds in stealing torpedoes from starbase.

I disagree because, as you have seen in the VOY episode » Dark Frontier «, a photon torpedo does not have to be fired off to be able to explode. Insofar it is possible to use a photon torpedo as a bomb. It can be smuggled into a city, e.g. San Francisco, and brought to detonation. No planetary shield could help there.

[Picard]

You forgot few points - civilization that will be able to use photon torpedoes most likely already has them, and Starbases have security systems - plus, that also argues for my assumption, since noone will be able to use torpedoes without reactants, and we know that all even vaguely important Federation installations are equipped with torpedoes. Also we see torpedoes used for burials, modified, and we know that torpedoes have variable yield. Also, what if contamination system on one torpedo fails? And there are 250 torpedoes onboard GCS.

That's more or less impossible on a starship that you can not leave.

Huh? After we saw Enterprise D taken over by Ferengi?

Why?
Why would the fact that Starfleet uses a standard torpedo makes it more important to have torpedo depots at each and every starbase instead of at a few secure locations?

Beacouse torpedoes are regularly used in combat. And I doubt that Miranda carries same number of torpedoes as Galaxy class starship.

I disagree because, as you have seen in the VOY episode » Dark Frontier «, a photon torpedo does not have to be fired off to be able to explode. Insofar it is possible to use a photon torpedo as a bomb. It can be smuggled into a city, e.g. San Francisco, and brought to detonation. No planetary shield could help there.

As general rule, civilization that has planetary shields will also have sensors able to detect torpedoes being transported.

[Who is like God arbour]

You have not replied to my arguments.

I argued that torpedoes are always loaded with anti-matter and are not only filled with it shortly before they are fired off.

You totally ignored that part - and repeated your argument that none would not be able to use torpedoes without reactant - implying that a torpedo usually is not filled with it.

And, without noticing it, you even provided a further argument for my position. You stated, that even vaguely important Federation installations are equipped with torpedoes. But not every Federation installation has a warp core and thus no separate anti-matter. If your notion would be true, they would have to have separate anti-matter only to be able to fill the torpedoes with it. Then why not have it in the torpedoes from the beginning?

Also I still have doubts that torpedoes are filled with anti-matter at all. Is there any canonical evidence for it? I know that the TM claims such thing. But it is not canon.

I find that notion ludicrous because then how could the torpedoes maximum yield be increased over the time? If you look at the photonic torpedoes from Enterprise, they have the same size as the photon torpedoes hundred years later. So much more anti-matter can't be stored in them. And even with making the reaction between matter and anti-matter more efficient, there is a limit to what the maximum yield can be increased. And yet there were several improvements made to photon torpedoes - probably after the photonic torpedoes was improved several times too. So was the USS Voyager equipped with type-6 photon torpedoes.

Then I argued that 250 torpedoes is only the number of torpedoes the Enterprise had during Conundrum and that this does not say, that this is her usual complement of torpedoes. And you simply replied: » And there are 250 torpedoes onboard GCS. «

Prove it!

Prove that the Enterprise gets new torpedoes every time she fired off one or every time she gets to a starbase and that therefore the 250 torpedoes she had during Conundrum, was her usual complement and we have to assume that she has always 250 torpedoes!