GAR & CIS vs. Alpha Quadrant

[Jedi Master Spock]

I see the discussion has derailed somewhat into the realm of the personal attack.

Could we possibly make some more forward progress on the original thread premise?

[Mith]

SW wins through superior production capacity. The RoTS ICS states that millions of capital ships were tied down in the Outer Rim sieges. Millions vs. 30,000 is not a very even match, especialy since your own OP has stipulated that the ships are individually equal.

That defies canon. Calculations based off the number of available clone troopers have shown us that the Republic probably didn't have more than 12,000 starships throughout the war, and the CIS was probably not quite as large as some say either, I highly doubt their numbers exceeded 20,000 in starships.

Overall, you're looking at a war with 32,000 (SW) vs about 30,000. The Republic has shown little in the way of massivly building fleets, but the UFP has shown that they can probably produce on a pretty high scale, even during war. I'd place them at about equal.

The SW side may have 2,000 more starships, but it should be noted that the ST side also has fun stuff like cloaks, photon/quantum/transphasic torpedoes, better weapons range, massively greater mobility, and better fighters (warp capable, phaser and photon weaponry).

[sonofccn]

SW wins through superior production capacity. The RoTS ICS states that millions of capital ships were tied down in the Outer Rim sieges. Millions vs. 30,000 is not a very even match, especialy since your own OP has stipulated that the ships are individually equal.

That defies canon. Calculations based off the number of available clone troopers have shown us that the Republic probably didn't have more than 12,000 starships throughout the war, and the CIS was probably not quite as large as some say either, I highly doubt their numbers exceeded 20,000 in starships.

Overall, you're looking at a war with 32,000 (SW) vs about 30,000. The Republic has shown little in the way of massivly building fleets, but the UFP has shown that they can probably produce on a pretty high scale, even during war. I'd place them at about equal.

The SW side may have 2,000 more starships, but it should be noted that the ST side also has fun stuff like cloaks, photon/quantum/transphasic torpedoes, better weapons range, massively greater mobility, and better fighters (warp capable, phaser and photon weaponry).

To be fair it was my understanding that the Republic fleet was built over a scant few years and were all "new" ships since the Republic didn't have any real Navy as far as I remember. The federation, and klingons, on the other hand shored up thier numbers using borderline obsolete ships, mirrandas and D-7 battlecruisers, seen during the dominion war. A stopgap measure to be sure, but as far as I know a move we didn't see during the clonewars, atleast not yet.

I'm not saying of course that the federation can't produce a lot warships in a short period of time or anything, but I think the Republic has the edge in the comparison.

[Mith]

SW wins through superior production capacity. The RoTS ICS states that millions of capital ships were tied down in the Outer Rim sieges. Millions vs. 30,000 is not a very even match, especialy since your own OP has stipulated that the ships are individually equal.

That defies canon. Calculations based off the number of available clone troopers have shown us that the Republic probably didn't have more than 12,000 starships throughout the war, and the CIS was probably not quite as large as some say either, I highly doubt their numbers exceeded 20,000 in starships.

Overall, you're looking at a war with 32,000 (SW) vs about 30,000. The Republic has shown little in the way of massivly building fleets, but the UFP has shown that they can probably produce on a pretty high scale, even during war. I'd place them at about equal.

The SW side may have 2,000 more starships, but it should be noted that the ST side also has fun stuff like cloaks, photon/quantum/transphasic torpedoes, better weapons range, massively greater mobility, and better fighters (warp capable, phaser and photon weaponry).

To be fair it was my understanding that the Republic fleet was built over a scant few years and were all "new" ships since the Republic didn't have any real Navy as far as I remember. The federation, and klingons, on the other hand shored up thier numbers using borderline obsolete ships, mirrandas and D-7 battlecruisers, seen during the dominion war. A stopgap measure to be sure, but as far as I know a move we didn't see during the clonewars, atleast not yet.

I'm not saying of course that the federation can't produce a lot warships in a short period of time or anything, but I think the Republic has the edge in the comparison.

I find this unlikely.

In order for the ships to have been completed, the Republic would have literally have had people design warships and then build them all within days. This is sheer impossibility. You may claim that someone has a high industry, but designing a warship from scratch requires time. Nor would those ships be designed very well if they were rushed.

I think that it was either three things:

1) The people who made the clones also made the starships. This is however, unlikely as it was never mentioned by the cloners. I think I would have mentioned that if we were talking about the progress of someone's army.

2) The Republic was building a fleet of starships, despite protests by the galaxy. Unfortunately there is no indication of this.

3) This is the one I do favor; it suggests that the Republic had a retired fleet that was out of service since the forming of the Republic (or shortly afterwards). The reason they weren't horribly outdated is from a lack of an outside threats and all inside issues were dealt with by the Jedi. This meant that aside from the occasional small assault or scout ship, the Republic Navy was non-existent. It is fairly evident that without an outside threat, a race will probably not advance very far in the way of weaponry.

You see this with the Federation; they kept Excelsiors and Mirandas in the fleet over a hundred years after their initial design and construction, despite the fact that they had newer ships like the Nebula and the Galaxy. Their entire fleet was full of old warships being used as patrol ships and science vessels.

The Cardassian war apparently caused the UFP to wake up a bit; building the Akira, Steamrunner, and Norway classes in a short time (relatively, likely months in the making). Then they came out with the Nebula and Galaxy classes.

After the threat with the Borg, we again see that the UFP has not advanced their ships as much as they possibly can; evidence by the Defiant herself. She was powerful enough to present herself as a serious threat to much larger ships and was armed with the most advanced weaponry. We also saw the Dominion threat bringing us Soveriegns and Prometheus class starships, as well as mass production of the Defiant Class.

So really, I wouldn't call the industry in SW to be that great. Certainly they probably built up a large fleet as the war continued, but there is no reason to believe that after a couple thousand years of peace that they even had shipyards capable of mass producing something as large as an SW warship. Fighters and transport ships yes, but warships no.

[Mith]

double post

[sonofccn]

find this unlikely.

In order for the ships to have been completed, the Republic would have literally have had people design warships and then build them all within days. This is sheer impossibility. You may claim that someone has a high industry, but designing a warship from scratch requires time. Nor would those ships be designed very well if they were rushed.

While you have a point with the Acclamaters, either produced via option 2 or 3, the Ventures had three years to go into production. Thats far more then a mere few days to plan and build. I also think your making an incorrect assumption about working from scratch. By the Time period of ATOC sabers had been rattled and in general a gloom filled atmosphere hung over everything. I don't find it that unlikely that some ambitious senator if nothing else had a commitee start doing designs for possible further warships in the years interveening TPM and ATOC. It would jive with the increaslingly more millitant faction of the Republic as well as keep the letter if not the spirit of the no military navy of the Republic. So by the time the war starts it's just a matter of placeing the resources in position and building. A thought on the matter atleast.

3) This is the one I do favor; it suggests that the Republic had a retired fleet that was out of service since the forming of the Republic (or shortly afterwards). The reason they weren't horribly outdated is from a lack of an outside threats and all inside issues were dealt with by the Jedi. This meant that aside from the occasional small assault or scout ship, the Republic Navy was non-existent. It is fairly evident that without an outside threat, a race will probably not advance very far in the way of weaponry.

Quite possible I admit but like option 2 we have no evidence eitherway. I think this theroy has the additonal problem of the shinyness/nonaged look of the ships. They don't look like relics from a thousand years ago. These things have presumbly been neglected, a society with the forsight to preserve and maitain warships for extended periods should have the forsight to keep some of them on active duty, and left to rot in space. In a manner similar to the space junkyards seen in Star trek.

In the end I do see the attractiveness of your theroy and how it makes a certain logic but on the other hand to assume the bulk of the Republic forces were old refits seems a bit harsh.

You see this with the Federation; they kept Excelsiors and Mirandas in the fleet over a hundred years after their initial design and construction, despite the fact that they had newer ships like the Nebula and the Galaxy. Their entire fleet was full of old warships being used as patrol ships and science vessels.

Yes during a time of relative peace the mass produced, presumbly cheap to maintain, Mirandas and Excelsiors (who could easily pummel the eighth tier aliens likely to be causing trouble) were employed. During the Dominion war these vessels were regulated to mere cannon fodder, or support duty not the frontline top tier unit the Venture appeared to be.

So really, I wouldn't call the industry in SW to be that great. Certainly they probably built up a large fleet as the war continued, but there is no reason to believe that after a couple thousand years of peace that they even had shipyards capable of mass producing something as large as an SW warship. Fighters and transport ships yes, but warships no.

Well the war is likely to take years to win or lose so thier industrial base,even if unprepared for large scale warships, will come into play. Also assuming the Wars timeline has progress normaly upto the formation/discovery of the wormhole I think it's safe to say the Sepertists atleast if not the Republic are bringing thier industry to bear warships. The Trade federation alone had been prepareing for conflict since TPM and I doubt they were alone as time progressed forward.

[Mike DiCenso]

3) This is the one I do favor; it suggests that the Republic had a retired fleet that was out of service since the forming of the Republic (or shortly afterwards). The reason they weren't horribly outdated is from a lack of an outside threats and all inside issues were dealt with by the Jedi. This meant that aside from the occasional small assault or scout ship, the Republic Navy was non-existent. It is fairly evident that without an outside threat, a race will probably not advance very far in the way of weaponry.

Unfortunately the EU is all over the place on what the GR fleet was like pre-Clone Wars. The largest capital ships being identified for many years was the Dreadnaught-class heavy cruiser, which according to the revisionist material, were not promiently seen because the supposedly more advanced wedged-shaped star destroyer type ships were reserved for the elite Clone troopers and dedicated Republic naval personel. But were limited to the 600 meter range. Smaller in volume than the Federation's Nebula, Galaxy, and Sovereign class starships. But still, they appear to have been produced in great number, and continued to be in service for quite some time even after the Galactic Empire's fall.

You see this with the Federation; they kept Excelsiors and Mirandas in the fleet over a hundred years after their initial design and construction, despite the fact that they had newer ships like the Nebula and the Galaxy. Their entire fleet was full of old warships being used as patrol ships and science vessels.

Interestingly enough, some of the Excelsior registries would suggest that the class was still in production well into the middle part of the 24th century. The USS Melbourne being of note in that she had a registry in the low 60k range. So while the baseline design of the Excelsior class may be 70-80 or so years old, the production of them has continued until relatively recently.

Mirandas also seemed to enjoy some considerable production time as at least two such ships, the USS Majestic and Saratoga, had registries in the low 30k range, suggesting class construction into the early 24th century.

So really, I wouldn't call the industry in SW to be that great. Certainly they probably built up a large fleet as the war continued, but there is no reason to believe that after a couple thousand years of peace that they even had shipyards capable of mass producing something as large as an SW warship. Fighters and transport ships yes, but warships no.

There I would disagree strongly. The Republic's adversaries, the CIS, were able to start work on the Great Weapon, which later became the first Death Star. That takes an enourmous amount of resources and industrial capacity to accomplish. Granted it's hard to think that way given how oddly primitive the Geonosian droid production factory looked in AoTC. But they did manage to jump start it, and with only about half the number of planets of the pre-Clone Wars GR on their side. So I can accept that the industrial capacity was there, at least once the Republic decided to properly mobilize. When we first see large Republic ships in AoTC, the so-called Acclamators or assault ships, that is all we see. In the Cartoon Network series, most of the Republic fleet is made up of these vessels, though they do not seem to demonstrate quite the same level of ship-to-ship combat capability as the later Republic cruisers/Venators. Instead relying mostly on their fighters for offensive power and defense.

But the time from the end of the events of TPM to AoTC, suggests that the GR and CIS needed some 10 years to ramp up production to full wartime status. The Seperatist/CIS having some advantage in that they clearly possessed a number of their Lucrehulk-class battleships well beforehand, though we have no idea how long it takes for them to build new ones, as well as the number of ships they had at the time of the Naboo blockade in TPM.
-Mike