Starfleet Jedi

With the thread about the "Outrageous Okona" having diverted to talks of conservation of momentum, it reminded me of another of those "Jedis can beat the crap out of Strafleet because they will block all Phaser shots coming their way" thread at SB.

It made me wonder, how would a Jedi, used to blocking massless (or near massless), momentum-less Blaster bolts, react to a "throw a 200 pound Klingon back 5 feet" Phaser shot?

We know that, " for every action, there is an opposite, and equal, reaction".

What would happen if a Jedi were to try to block a Phaser blast.
Since we see Phasers throw back the targets it hits at least 95% of the time (when not on "disintegrate" mode), then I imagine the Jedi would put his Lightsabre blade between him and the beam, only to find that upon impact, his Lightsabre blade has now done his opponent's job for him, but being pushed back at the surprised Jedi, and severing any body part it comes into contact with.

That would be a neat trick... :)

Praeothmin wrote:It made me wonder, how would a Jedi, used to blocking massless (or near massless), momentum-less Blaster bolts, react to a "throw a 200 pound Klingon back 5 feet" Phaser shot?

We know that, " for every action, there is an opposite, and equal, reaction".

How did Kirk react? We see him fire it while holding phaser in one hand and his hand doesn't even jerk slightly. Conservation of momentum therefore dictates that beam doesn't have enough momentum to jerk a human hand. Therefore Klingon flying away was yet another phaser effect. Perhaps something similar to an electrical jolt. In any case I don't predict any particular problem for a Jedi in momentum department unless Kirk has exceptional density and muscle strength.

I'am not sure I buy that. I do believe in ANH and TESB that there are at least a couple of examples of blaster bolts hitting stormtroopers, which in turn send them sprawling backwards. The one that comes most notably to my mind is when on the Death Star Han and Chewie chases a squad of Stormtroopers. The STs turn on Han when cornered (in the SE and DVD they run into a hanger bay filled with troops and officers), he shoots one of the STs who quite noticably is flung backwards by the force of the hit.
-Mike

I'm sure the lightsabre properly transmists the force the weilder puts in each swing. Yes, he doesn't have to force that much if the blade is near massless (again, let's get a real proof of that), but let's imagine Grievous' strenght, or even the strenght of a Jedi or Sith amplifying the power of swings with the Force.

Well, forget about that. If that was the case, the blades would be moved ultra fast.

Anyway, good examples of lightsabres blockings projectiles known to knock of people, or blow up stuff, are littering the way.
Luke deflecting the bolts from the imperial scoutbike in ROTJ, on Endor.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon deflecting the bolts fired by the droidekas - we noticed how the bolts made the machines' arms move backwards. The recoil was quite significant.

Besides, as said by KS, these phaser bolts which send people backwards don't create any recoil.

We also have to presume in this case that people being flung backwards or whatever by a blaster bolt aren't simply reacting to another effect of the weapon, such as an "electrical jolt", like what Kane is suggesting for phasers. Certainly the recoil on hand-held blasters and rifles aren't much higher than that seen in real-life with your average firearms, and yet produce an impact effect on people wearing armor that is many times greater.
-Mike

Kane Starkiller wrote:Perhaps something similar to an electrical jolt.

I've never seen anybody jump back 5 feet from an electric jolt, but we have seen humanoids get thrown 5 feet back from phaser fire.
And perhaps the Phase has an internal recoil compensator to counter act the momentum imparted to it by the Phaser ray.

Mike DiCenso wrote:I do believe in ANH and TESB that there are at least a couple of examples of blaster bolts hitting stormtroopers, which in turn send them sprawling backwards. The one that comes most notably to my mind is when on the Death Star Han and Chewie chases a squad of Stormtroopers. The STs turn on Han when cornered (in the SE and DVD they run into a hanger bay filled with troops and officers), he shoots one of the STs who quite noticably is flung backwards by the force of the hit.

Indeed they did, but those are the exceptions, since most of the Blaster hits after don't have that effect.
The Tantive IV boarding doesn't show us many Stormtroopers being thrown back by the bolts impacts.
On Endor, Han blasts a Stormtrooper dead center, and he barely jerks before crumbling.

You see, contrary to SW, where Blaster fire rarely throwns someone back a few feet, that weapon's effect is the norm in ST.

Mr. Oraghan wrote:I'm sure the lightsabre properly transmists the force the weilder puts in each swing. Yes, he doesn't have to force that much if the blade is near massless (again, let's get a real proof of that), but let's imagine Grievous' strenght, or even the strenght of a Jedi or Sith amplifying the power of swings with the Force.

Well, forget about that. If that was the case, the blades would be moved ultra fast.

Let's not forget about it.
We've seen how luke was able to beat back Vader's sabre in ROTJ with wild, powerful swings.
We've seen Vader do the same to Luke in ESB. The blades may be light, but they seem anything but massless to me.

Anyway, good examples of lightsabres blockings projectiles known to knock of people, or blow up stuff, are littering the way.
Luke deflecting the bolts from the imperial scoutbike in ROTJ, on Endor.
Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon deflecting the bolts fired by the droidekas - we noticed how the bolts made the machines' arms move backwards. The recoil was quite significant.

Yup, forgot about those.
Ah well, my new shiny theory goes down the drain... :)

Actually, there's a very clear momentum-transmitting shot in ST:FC, in which a Borg drone - with no visible muscular twitch - is propelled backwards at a couple meters per second into the vacuum of space. However, phasers never appear to have significant recoil... which does pose problems.

Note that if a bolt is simply deflected, rather than reflected, the momentum that the lightsaber gains is limited.

Praeothmin wrote:

Kane Starkiller wrote:Perhaps something similar to an electrical jolt.

I've never seen anybody jump back 5 feet from an electric jolt, but we have seen humanoids get thrown 5 feet back from phaser fire.
And perhaps the Phase has an internal recoil compensator to counter act the momentum imparted to it by the Phaser ray.

You may never have seen people thrown by electricity but accunts are widespread. Below a certain voltage/amperage threshold, electricity will throw you clear and above it it will hold you in place.

Cpl Kendall wrote:You may never have seen people thrown by electricity but accunts are widespread. Below a certain voltage/amperage threshold, electricity will throw you clear and above it it will hold you in place.

Well, from what I read here, what probably throws you back is the blast from big electric arcs.

Over 80% of all injuries and fatalities caused by electrical incidents are not caused by electric shock, but by the intense heat, light, and pressure wave (blast) caused by electrical faults.[citation needed] The arc-flash in an electrical fault produces the same type of light radiation from which electric welders protect themselves using face shields with dark glass, heavy leather gloves, and full-coverage clothing. The heat produced may cause severe burns, especially on unprotected flesh. The blast produced by vaporizing metallic components can break bones and irreparably damage internal organs. The degree of hazard present at a particular location can be determined by a detailed analysis of the electrical system, and appropriate protection worn if the electrical work must be performed with the electricity on.

Found it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock

Well, electricity makes muscles contract willy-nilly - which is why you touch a potentially live wire with the back of your hand before grabbing it. Still, that has trouble explaining some of the momentum transfer incidents.

As the site said, DC electricity (or low frequency voltage) is what hes your muscles contract.

Seems quite clear to me. The target exhibits momentum, the origin does not. How is this done? Unknown. But it is done, ergo we'll have to accept that it is so.

l33telboi wrote:Seems quite clear to me. The target exhibits momentum, the origin does not. How is this done? Unknown. But it is done, ergo we'll have to accept that it is so.

"Exhibits momentum"? What does that mean? Every object has momentum and it cannot decrease or increase without an external force. There are no buts here. It is a fundamental law of nature. If the beam didn't have enough momentum to trow back Kirk when it left the phaser it won't have enough momentum to trow another man back when it impacts. Therefore we are talking about something else. I already provided a possible explanation.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work to explain the incidents very well (e.g., a Borg being propelled backwards in the vacuum of space with no muscular twitching). Clearly, phasers apply some momentum as well as energy to the target - the question is how much. We could also suggest that everybody in Starfleet has super-strong shooting arms or invisible bracing force fields, but that's just silly.

Personally, I'm going to suggest that it's a combination of actors not showing recoil very well and people reacting to being hit... and reiterate that for a simple deflection of a bolt by a handful of degrees, it's not such a bad jarring for a lightsaber wielder.

The problem is when you have sustained beams rather than bolts, or a spread - that's much harder. The momentum problem is not so great for this particular scenario regardless of how we choose to slice it.

Master Spock wrote:

Actually, there's a very clear momentum-transmitting shot in ST:FC, in which a Borg drone - with no visible muscular twitch - is propelled backwards at a couple meters per second into the vacuum of space. However, phasers never appear to have significant recoil... which does pose problems.

I would have to wonder if the thermal effects of the phaser's particle beam as it disperses through the target's armor/clothing/flesh/bone/whatever is what might be contributing to the "knock back" effect here.
-Mike