Starfleet Jedi

Scenario A:

As part of his perpetual quest to find slightly less well trodden Trek-Wars matchup Q replaces the Federation/Alpha quadrent* with the Confederacy of Independent Systems, including all assets, aligned systems and leaders "loyal to the cause" with the noted exception of Darth Sidious/Palpatine, shortly before the outbreak of the Dominion War. The aformentioned Dominon, most notably a certain Vorta named Vi'retess, see no reason to postpone the whole Alpha quadrent expansion or otherwise risk a large, industrialized threat on their border so to speak and proceed with the invasion. Time wise this is just immeditely before a Call to arms [DS9-05] for Trek and immeditely post ATOC's for Wars. How does it play out?

Scenario B:

As part of his perpetual quest to find well trodden Trek Wars matchups Q replaces the Confederacy of Independent Systems with the Federation**, including all assets, aligned systems and leaders with the noted exception of any who were Romulan/Cardassion/Changling/ect agents, shortly after the outbreak of the Clone Wars. The Galactic Republic, notably a certain Chancellor named Palpatine, sees no reason to suffer an unaligned, technologically advanced rival and proceed to bring them "back to the fold".Time wise this is just immeditely before a Call to arms [DS9-05] for Trek and immeditely post ATOC's for Wars. How does it play out?


*All Dominion/Cardassion assets Alpha side are unchanged/moved.

** Only the Federation, its colonies and immedite protectorates make the transference into the Wars's Galaxy.

Part A:

Not counting any speed/firepower differences, the cut-and-paste CIS starts at a distinct disadvantage to the Dominion in several key areas:

1)Numbers:

While the size of both side's ground forces are relatively unknown, we do get a good idea of the scale of both side's fleets. The Dominion-Cardassian-Breen fleet had over 30,000 combat vessels after over a year and a half of heavy combat and no Dominion reinforcements from the Gamma Quadrant, plus the loss of several large shipyards to the Federation.

Given what we have seen of the Confederacy's forces throughout The Clone Wars and how much of a loss several ships is, it is unlikely that they possess anywhere near that many vessels.

2)Transit:

As seen in The Clone Wars during the war with the Republic, hyper-lanes provide a large boost in transportation of ships and resources throughout both one's own and one's enemy's territory. Without these lanes extending into Dominion space the CIS would have greater trouble mounting any offensive strike.

Hyperdrive requires accurate maps of the area to safely function. Theses are readily available in the Star Wars galaxy, but they do not exist for the Alpha Quadrant. So the CIS would need to map the area before being able to jump into it using hyperdrive. Given that this was completed for the Star Wars galaxy long ago, they probably do not possess equipment to do so in a quick manor like we see with warp driven ships which map as they go.

3)Logistics:

Replicators and transporters provide a distinct advantage for the Dominion as much of their supplies can be replicated and does not require shipment. Transporters allow for better and more expedient troop deployment, better boarding methods, and transport of goods.

4)Economic production:

Shipyards seen in Dominion territory during DS9 are at any given time constructing far more ships than have ever been seen in any one engagement throughout The Clone Wars. Jem'Hadar only take a few days to grow to maturity. However the CIS is largely tech and manufacturing corporations using droids for combat and manpower, so in ground supplies and troops they probably would be able to match the Dominion in volume.


Another factor in the Dominion's favor is their poloron beam weapons which can bypass starship shields. Although it (for obvious reasons) has never been stated that they could bypass Star Wars shields, there is no reason to assume they wouldn't as they had no trouble with anyone else's, until the Federation developed a countermeasure around three years after contact.

All of this coupled with a weapons range/firepower advantage, and a possible speed advantage (especially given the circumstances), gives the Dominion a significant edge over the CIS which would lead to their, relatively, swift victory.


Chronology of the conflict:

Late 2373: War begins, CIS is dealt a series of defeats due to their lack of knowledge of the Dominion and the surrounding space plus a technological disadvantage.

Early 2374: Dominion deems CIS a lesser threat and shifts primary interest to Klingon Empire. CIS continues to suffer losses, but evens out a little. They begin mapping surrounding areas for hyperdrive transit. This meats with resistance as the scout ships are constantly under attack by surrounding powers (Klingons, Romulans, Dominion, etc...) as they venture into unwelcoming space. CIS conquers many non-Federation planets and pre-warp planets that exist within or near the Federation's former territory.

Mid 2374: Klingon Empire slowly loosing to Dominion forces. CIS continue mapping projects, irritating the Romulans, Klingons, and Dominion. CIS borders mostly stable, they begin to rebuild losses.

Late 2374: Klingons develop countermeasure to Dominion poloron beam weapons. Klingon Empire loosing significant territory. CIS continues to map, expand infrastructure, and rebuild forces.

Early 2375: Klingon Empire on the verge of total defeat. CIS develops countermeasure to poloron beam weaopns. CIS prepares military.

Mid 2375: Klingon Empire falls. Dominion shift interest back to CIS to gain access to other areas including strategic positions on former Federation-Romulan border. CIS successfully lands troops on Dominion worlds both gaining victories and suffering defeats. Dominion invasion persists and takes out several CIS manufacturing worlds. CIS troop count begins to seriously drop.

Late 2375: CIS destroy several Dominion production facilities, but the Dominion still hold the planets. Dominion take back captured worlds from CIS. CIS central planets now threatened by Dominion invasion. Romulans notice Dominion tenancies and prepare.

Early 2376: Romulan fleets, already prepared for poloron weapons, quickly strike at Dominion resources and production facilities. Dominion war effort is heavily damaged. CIS near defeat, but Dominion shift main efforts to the war with the Romulan Star Empire.

Over time...: CIS reduced, possibly defeated. Something happens with the Romulan-Dominion war, probably an eventual draw as the Dominion's forces are stretched to thin.

Nice one, 359. However, I noticed that Sonofccn and you both forgot about two major factors that might affect the war for either side; Force users, such as Count Dooku and Ventress for the CIS, and the shape-shifting Founders of the Dominion, who would certainly be infiltrating the CIS.
-Mike

@359

Thanks for replying! :) And I hope you may indulge me with a Part B.

1)Numbers:

While I agree the Dominion's numbers are impressive, likely providing the lion's share of that thirty thousand, with an unknown remainder "untapped" in the OTL the disparately may not be as bad as first glance may indicate. The fourth season of the Clone Wars did provide a couple of "big fleet" moments opposed to the more typical 3 cruisers. Namely here in Plan of Dissent {season 4 episode 9}, sorry that its dub in I think Spanish, from 3:36-3:51 and in Massacure [season 4 episode 19] starting @ 2:24 we see the Confederate "home guard" around Dooku's homeworld. Not as impressive as the Cardassia scene admittedly but that did involve the entire remainder of the Dominion Alpha fleet.

3)Logistics:

Replicators will certaintly ease the burden but the existence of mining/miners in the 24th century, freighters, such as Kasidy Yates commanded, as well as the the issues Voyager faced replicators can't erase the logistical problem. Further the Dominion does have distinct logistical issue of transporting and distributing Ketracel-white to its soldiers.

4)Economic production:

How many ships are we talking about, in regards to those shipyards,? As well as the Clone Wars we also have the fleet battle from ROTS such as here here and here showing a lot of ships being thrown into the fray.

weapon's range:

Its true if its comes down to a sniping contest it'll be like fish in the barrel for the Dominion. But that said they do appear partial to the same photogenic ranges which would not appear out of place in Wars.

Mike DiCenso wrote:Nice one, 359. However, I noticed that Sonofccn and you both forgot about two major factors that might affect the war for either side; Force users, such as Count Dooku and Ventress for the CIS, and the shape-shifting Founders of the Dominion, who would certainly be infiltrating the CIS.
-Mike

Well on one level I'd have to argue the Dominion has a clear and decisive edge, the Confederacy's force users being too few and generally too limited in power compared to the trouble Changlings can accomplish, in these "special forces" but on another Count Dooku is something of a politician. I believe the ROTS novel mentions he was the only thing keeping/uniting the Confederates. It would be in the realm of possibility for him to try and thread a Klingon and/or Romulan alliance against the Dominion. He doesn't have Garack its true but he wouldn't be opposed to underhanded duplicity on his own iniative either.

sonofccn wrote:1)Numbers:

While I agree the Dominion's numbers are impressive, likely providing the lion's share of that thirty thousand, with an unknown remainder "untapped" in the OTL the disparately may not be as bad as first glance may indicate. The fourth season of the Clone Wars did provide a couple of "big fleet" moments opposed to the more typical 3 cruisers. Namely here in Plan of Dissent {season 4 episode 9}, sorry that its dub in I think Spanish, from 3:36-3:51 and in Massacure [season 4 episode 19] starting @ 2:24 we see the Confederate "home guard" around Dooku's homeworld. Not as impressive as the Cardassia scene admittedly but that did involve the entire remainder of the Dominion Alpha fleet.

Yes it is true that in later seasons we see several quite large fleets, but my impression of the CIS fleet at the beginning was that is was much smaller than it was later, as was the Republic's. This compared to the Dominion who start with a substantial force, and then have an early advantage. This would restrict the CIS from growing to its full force which we see later in the war.

sonofccn wrote:3)Logistics:

Replicators will certaintly ease the burden but the existence of mining/miners in the 24th century, freighters, such as Kasidy Yates commanded, as well as the the issues Voyager faced replicators can't erase the logistical problem. Further the Dominion does have distinct logistical issue of transporting and distributing Ketracel-white to its soldiers.

I do agree that replicators do not solve all their problems, but it is still an advantage. The fact is that they do replace, to some extent, the need to transport several basic items from production facilities to the front-line which takes time and resources to do.

sonofccn wrote:4)Economic production:

How many ships are we talking about, in regards to those shipyards,? As well as the Clone Wars we also have the fleet battle from ROTS such as here here and here showing a lot of ships being thrown into the fray.

The Monac shipyard (above) was one of the Dominion/Cardassian shipyards during the war. At least one other large shipyard was at Torros III and was the first target of the Federation and Klingons during a surprise attack on the Dominion at the beginning of the war. There are several other yards as well, but we are never given their exact size.

Also, most battles throughout the Dominion War are described as being fought with hundreds of ships.

______

Part B:

The cut-and-paste Federation ends up in much the same situation as the CIS does in scenario A, being dropped in the path of an invading army in unfamiliar territory. But that's about where the direct similarities end.

1)Transit:

In this area the Republic suffers the same problems as the CIS would against the Dominion, Federation space is uncharted and would therefor pose a problem for hyperspace driven ships. And this is one of the Federation's large advantages, Starfleet vessels are built for exploring. Until the Defiant-class that is their primary use: exploration and scientific research. Federation warp driven starships chart a multiple light-year radius as they move. This gives the Federation a large advantage over the Republic. However the Republic is so massive it is unlikely that the Federation would have enough ships to both explore the Republic in its entirety and fight a war at the same time.

So from this, both sides would have trouble landing troops in each other's systems and capturing or destroying key facilities. Their slow progression into each other's territories would allow the Republic time to build up its fleet to late Clone Wars sizes very quickly.

2)Numbers:

At the beginning of the Clone Wars, the Republic has a tiny army and navy; about 1,200,000 troops and an unknown number of ships. At the beginning of the Dominion war, the Federation likely posses something on the order of 10,000 starships, although many will not be sent into combat. The Federation's ground forces are largely unknown, but it's safe to say that they are in excess of 1.2 million. Later the Republic forces increase to something around 10,000,000 clones.

3)Logistics:

Replicators&transporters for Federation. Landing troops on an opponent's planet will be where a large portion of this will come into play. Federation planetary defenses are very accurate out to several hundred thousand kilometers (being similar to or better than Cardassian system-V disruptor), this will prove a challenge to Republic transports attempting to land troops. However, for the Federation with transporters, landing troops will be simple as the Republic's defenses are to prevent ships from reaching the ground. With the ship in orbit and out of anti-aircraft range (TCW: "Innocents of Ryloth") preventing invasion will be placed solely on the defending ships, which given that most planets are generally defended by three Venator-class cruisers, will not amount to much in the way of stopping an invasion force.

4)Economic Production:

Most of the Republic's manufacturing industry broke away to the CIS, but they likely still have an edge over the Federation in production. However they have a major weakness: Kamino. If the federation takes out Kamino the Republic will loose access to all of their clone production facilities and much of their weapons production as well.


Given that both sides use drastically different methods of FTL propulsion, it will probably take some time for them to be able to track each other's scouting vessels. But they will probably figure it out by the time invasions begin to occur.

Based on these factors and a firepower/range advantage for the Federation, and a possibly comparable speed for the two factions. I predict that the war will generally move in the Federation's favor, resulting in ceasing hostilities on both sides as the Republic can no longer support the war.


Chronology of the conflict:

Early 22 BBY: War begins, Federation begins exploration of surrounding space. Several skirmishes and minor fleet engagements occur, generally to Federation's favor due largely to fleet numerical superiority.

Mid 22 BBY: Federation takes several nearby systems. Republic begins exploration. More skirmishes occur.

Late 22 BBY: Republic scouts meet resistance in Federation space. Federation meets resistance from growing Republic fleet and armies. Republic successfully launches invasions of several of the Federation's outer colonies. Starfleet re-deployed to defend planets.

Early 21 BBY: Federation develops tracking system for hyper-drive. Some starships redeployed to fleets. Republic develops tracking system for warp drive. They continue to take and re-take worlds.

Mid 21 BBY: A large Federation fleet engages a Republic fleet. Everyone is still mapping space.

Late 21 BBY: Federation captures a large Republic world. Used as a fleet staging location. Republic counter attacks but is driven back.

Early 20 BBY: Republic strikes at major Federation world ?capturing it? Federation strikes at key Republic targets.

Eventually: Republic has exhausted its fighting ability, Federation stressed as well. Both agree to peace. Later Chancellor Palpatine resumes attack/creates empire and resumes attack.

This one is a lot more dependent on the exact difference in speed and firepower, so it makes it harder to predict without specifying the difference. In comparison the Federation would have a harder time with the Republic then the Dominion would with the CIS.

359 wrote:Yes it is true that in later seasons we see several quite large fleets, but my impression of the CIS fleet at the beginning was that is was much smaller than it was later, as was the Republic's.

That is a valid interpetation of the evidence through that would point to relatively impressive shipbuilding rates. However a possible counterpoint would be Cat and mouse( Season 2 episode 16). Here, sorry for the incredibly terrible video, @ about 7:02 we are treated to a nice sideview of the Confederate blockade fleet and we can make out multiple vessels of various classes encircling the planet with perhaps more off screen. And this would be one of the chronologically earliest points in the Clone Wars series occuring before the 2008 Movie.

Further there is also the problem of conflict scale. For instances if we were to take as typical that a system has three cruisers to defend it and if we assume twenty thousand systems, in keeping with another ten thousand joining the Seppies, we'd arrive at sixty thousand cruisers which should be a notitable numerical advantage against the Dominion right off the bat. Which is not to say I'm arguing every system has three cruisers parked in it but even small numbers can add up quickly.

359 wrote:I do agree that replicators do not solve all their problems, but it is still an advantage. The fact is that they do replace, to some extent, the need to transport several basic items from production facilities to the front-line which takes time and resources to do.

But under ideal circumstances it is more effective to ship those basic items and every joule spent replicating them is one joule less that can be diverted to the ship's systems. So yes it is a clear cut advantage, any Dominion ship can replicate tools and parts they need when they need it rather than waiting, but logistically I'm not sure it bestows anything over the advantages the Confederacy's potentially greater industry offers.

359 wrote:The Monac shipyard (above) was one of the Dominion/Cardassian shipyards during the war. At least one other large shipyard was at Torros III and was the first target of the Federation and Klingons during a surprise attack on the Dominion at the beginning of the war. There are several other yards as well, but we are never given their exact size

That certainly is a lot of ships and more than we've seen on The Clone Wars at any one time through perhaps not the ROTS battle. Also as far as I know Torros III wasn't described as large merely as a shipyard making its relation to Monac a known unknown.

359 wrote:Also, most battles throughout the Dominion War are described as being fought with hundreds of ships

That is correct. Hundreds if not thousands of ships in a War of tens of thousands of warships.

Part B-

2)Numbers:

359 wrote:At the beginning of the Clone Wars, the Republic has a tiny army and navy; about 1,200,000 troops and an unknown number of ships.

Do we have any hard data on their Navy? Just from the movie it appeared it was bought and paid for along with the the Clone Army.

359 wrote:The Federation's ground forces are largely unknown, but it's safe to say that they are in excess of 1.2 million.

Well we got this from Inquisition season 6 DS9:

SLOAN: I've had enough of your lies, Doctor. You think you're smarter than the rest of us, don't you? You think you're smarter than the millions of brave men and women who put their lives on the line for the Federation. You want to do things the hard way, fine, but I'm going to get the truth out of you, and when I'm done I'm going to take whatever's left of you and lock it away. Guards!

Granted Sloan is hardly a font of truth and honesty but lies have to be believable.

3)Logistics:

359 wrote:Federation planetary defenses are very accurate out to several hundred thousand kilometers (being similar to or better than Cardassian system-V disruptor), this will prove a challenge to Republic transports attempting to land troops.

Perhaps but their strength is seems sporadic. We have an asylum in Whom Gods Destroy which can at least survive the forward phasers of a Connie at its weakest point on one end then on the other in Gambit part 1 we have an outpost, whose shield may or may not cover the planet, that while armed is only a close match for a lone "Pirate vessel". Further we know from the "In pale moon light" season six:

359 wrote:SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours.

That member worlds defenses are not uniform.

sonofccn wrote:@ about 7:02 we are treated to a nice sideview of the Confederate blockade fleet and we can make out multiple vessels of various classes encircling the planet with perhaps more off screen. And this would be one of the chronologically earliest points in the Clone Wars series occuring before the 2008 Movie.

I don't see anything terribly impressive there, other than the size of the ships involved in the blockade. There's just twelve or so ships there, and the other views of the CIS blockade fleet seen in the episode tends to suggest that's about all of the fleet there is. Hell, "encircling" is a highly generous description there. That fleet is maybe spread out over a few dozen kilometers tops. Compare that to this scene from DS9's "What You Leave Behind":





That fleet truly encircles Cardassia, and easily numbers in the thousands.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Hell, "encircling" is a highly generous description there.

With respect sir I assumed encircle would be an accurate enough term since the Confederates appear to be forming a "band of ships" around the "forward" face of the planet. What term would not be overly generous if I may be so bold to ask?

Mike DiCenso wrote:I don't see anything terribly impressive there, other than the size of the ships involved in the blockade.

No sir but I was arguing with 359 on if The Clone Wars showed fleet sizes larger than 3-5. Specificly if early seasons/years showed smaller number with later ones showing larger.

Mike DiCenso wrote:That fleet truly encircles Cardassia, and easily numbers in the thousands.

I would suggest envelopes would be more apt sir but yes. Nor have I attempted to argue anything I've presented would be on that level sir but as I noted in my first response to 359:

Not as impressive as the Cardassia scene admittedly but that did involve the entire remainder of the Dominion Alpha fleet.

Mike DiCenso wrote:Nice one, 359. However, I noticed that Sonofccn and you both forgot about two major factors that might affect the war for either side; Force users, such as Count Dooku and Ventress for the CIS, and the shape-shifting Founders of the Dominion, who would certainly be infiltrating the CIS.
-Mike

Shape-shiftimg founder conquest the Confederacy barely a shot being fire. Let face Shape-shifting founder able to inferential both ,Obsidian Order , Klingon Empire government and Tal Shiar even limit lever starfleet. Neither Confederacy or Republic intelligence stand a chance catching a spies or having spies avoid being catch any major power that know in Star Trek. Dominion in prat ice best spy in all Star Trek for black ops all Star Trek.

If some how turn major space battle let say the Dominion risk lose many Founders the Dominion also crush Confederacy like unwanted bug weighting slaughter.

So Dooku, Martok and Tomalok vs Vi'retess and Weyoun

expect an enormous amount of speeches to the effect of "these elitist scumbags are forcing you the huddled masses into extreme poverty fighting a war that you are hopelessly out gunned in..surrounded by enemies while we hand out industrial replicators like candy to the poor Bajorns and overran their oppressor and gave them back their freedom unlike the trade federation we respect the rights of those who do business with and award franchises upon"