Starfleet Jedi

It has always bothered me that the navigational deflector is suppose to easily deal with mundane matter, and can even let a ship travel at high fractions of the speed of light in an atmosphere, but could not seemingly protect the ship from plasma weapons.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... lhc-alice/

The plasma is made of subatomic particles called quarks and gluons. Quarks are the elementary building blocks of positively charged protons and neutral neutrons, which make up the cores of atoms. Gluons are particles that "glue" quarks together using what's called the strong force.

I never realized that plasma could be made out of anything other then protons, electrons, and neutrons. Is there any way to know what the plasmas used in Star Trek are made of? Clearly stars are made of the more mundane forms of plasma, but what about the weapon discharges?

It is also important to consider that plasma may notbe all Star Trek plasma weapons are made of. Shields at very least have subspace component, and phasers likely have it too.

That and we have no clue what the heck nadion particles are or what they do, other than they make up at least part of the phaser beam components. Or are a by-product of the phaser beam, at any rate.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:That and we have no clue what the heck nadion particles are or what they do, other than they make up at least part of the phaser beam components. Or are a by-product of the phaser beam, at any rate.
-Mike

They are fictional subatomic particles.

My problem has always been that plasma composed of neutrons, protons, and electrons is some of the most common stuff in the universe. Just going to warp would mean they would crash head first into the stuff while traveling faster then light. They should be immune to the stuff much like they need to be and are immune to photons. If plasma can be made out of more exotic things then protons, electrons, and neutrons there is no problem however.

Actually, the navigator deflector dish would push any sort of particles out of the way. In regards to nadion particles, the TNG TM does offer an explanation for how phasers work, but it isn't official or binding. Other than that, we really do have little idea on how they work.

As far as plasma being a problem for shields, there is some evidence for this. The most apparent is that ships can't stay in star corona for very long. This isn't too surprising given that we also know that certain ion storms of unknown strength is a danger to starships.

As far as this goes for weapons, the issue isn't all that bad considering that we don't see that many species making use of such weapons, but those thar do are devastating.

Mith wrote:As far as plasma being a problem for shields, there is some evidence for this. The most apparent is that ships can't stay in star corona for very long. This isn't too surprising given that we also know that certain ion storms of unknown strength is a danger to starships.

Be careful there. The E-D in "Relics" spent quite some considerable time in not only a G-type star's solar corona, but being exposed to massive solar flare prominences, and that was with severely weakened shields. But even then, the ship was expected to handle it for 3 hours.

As for the star in "Descent, Part 2", that star was very unusual, as Mr. Oragahn and I discussed here in the "ST vs Eldar & Tau" a while back. That star, was likely a supergiant K-type or something else based on how rapidly and how high it heated the E-D's hull, and it's unusual luminosity as seen from the planet's surface, among other factors.
-Mike

Mith wrote:Actually, the navigator deflector dish would push any sort of particles out of the way. In regards to nadion particles, the TNG TM does offer an explanation for how phasers work, but it isn't official or binding. Other than that, we really do have little idea on how they work.

Then provide quotes, or shut-up about a book others may not have handy. I'm having trouble reading your mind.

Mith wrote:As far as plasma being a problem for shields, there is some evidence for this. The most apparent is that ships can't stay in star corona for very long. This isn't too surprising given that we also know that certain ion storms of unknown strength is a danger to starships.

The problem isn't the plasma normally, and they wouldn't be able to use impulse and warp if plasma was a threat like you are thinking.

Desent and Reliics have strange stars in them.

Mith wrote:As far as this goes for weapons, the issue isn't all that bad considering that we don't see that many species making use of such weapons, but those thar do are devastating.

Most remotely quantifiable weapons in Star Trek have something to do with suddenly changing the electromagnetic properties of the target. The electromagnetic force screws with sub-space just as much as gravity.

Lucky wrote:

Mith wrote:Actually, the navigator deflector dish would push any sort of particles out of the way. In regards to nadion particles, the TNG TM does offer an explanation for how phasers work, but it isn't official or binding. Other than that, we really do have little idea on how they work.

Then provide quotes, or shut-up about a book others may not have handy. I'm having trouble reading your mind.

How about no? Just where the fuck do you get the idea that I'll post the information after a response like that? Find someone who likes being treated like trash.

Mith wrote:Actually, the navigator deflector dish would push any sort of particles out of the way. In regards to nadion particles, the TNG TM does offer an explanation for how phasers work, but it isn't official or binding. Other than that, we really do have little idea on how they work.

Lucky wrote:Then provide quotes, or shut-up about a book others may not have handy. I'm having trouble reading your mind.

Mith wrote: How about no? Just where the fuck do you get the idea that I'll post the information after a response like that? Find someone who likes being treated like trash.

How about the rules of this site obligate you to?

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2 wrote: To this end, the following simple specific rules should be kept in mind and followed at all times:

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Obey all rules specific to the forum section. Some forum sections have additional rules.

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I let your rude behavior towards me slide when you failed to even reply to a PM I sent you.

I let your rude behavior slide when you ignored a reply I made to one of your posts in this thread: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=4&t=6346

Now I won't shut up and take your unforgivable rudeness in a post, and you get angry? You've repeatedly sited the TM as a relevant source, but haven't provided the information.

On top of that, you have basically broken rules 1, 2, 3, and 6 by not posting the quotes you are talking about.

Lucky wrote:How about the rules of this site obligate you to?

I wasn't making a claim of any sort, but rather an off-hand comment. Rather than asking politely for a quote, you downright insulted me.

So no, I will not give you the information and you can just find it on your own. Take it as some sort of concession if you like, Idon't care.

I let your rude behavior towards me slide when you failed to even reply to a PM I sent you.

I rarely if ever really check my PMs and when I do I don't often respond too quickly. Nor are you in front of the line of who I will respond to. Nor do I consider myself or anyone else required to respond to them.

I let your rude behavior slide when you ignored a reply I made to one of your posts in this thread: http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=4&t=6346

Because I'm such an active poster here, right? Sorry, I really don't care that Ididn't respond to you in a thread. It's not like I always respond to people who respond to me.

Now I won't shut up and take your unforgivable rudeness in a post, and you get angry? You've repeatedly sited the TM as a relevant source, but haven't provided the information.

Not posting a quote on something in a casual cinversation, especially when it it is not asked for beforehand isn't rude. I'm not sure where you were raised, but there is no sociall context where I would be required to give such information. OP asked where they explained such information and I answered. You responded by posting a demeaning and demanding post. Shockingly, Ididn't respond well to it.

On top of that, you have basically broken rules 1, 2, 3, and 6 by not posting the quotes you are talking about.

To be frank, you're full of shit.

I've msde no subtantial claim other than answer a question as to what source offered such an answer-and Ido remember being rather clear in stating that the canon status of the TMs was at best questionable. That really justbleaves the same basic shrug that everyone else gave.

So once again, I refuse to post the quote. I'm under no obligation that I can see and even if I were, I'm not going to anyway simply because of how you treated me.

Have a nice day.

Mith, Lucky. The both of you knock it off.
-Mike

Lucky wrote:

Mike DiCenso wrote:That and we have no clue what the heck nadion particles are or what they do, other than they make up at least part of the phaser beam components. Or are a by-product of the phaser beam, at any rate.
-Mike

They are fictional subatomic particles.

My problem has always been that plasma composed of neutrons, protons, and electrons is some of the most common stuff in the universe. Just going to warp would mean they would crash head first into the stuff while traveling faster then light. They should be immune to the stuff much like they need to be and are immune to photons. If plasma can be made out of more exotic things then protons, electrons, and neutrons there is no problem however.

Technically, their FTL tech doesn't have them crash into stuff at stupid speeds. The warping effect would make those particles "hit" the ship at the speed at which she flew before activating warp, as the particles would come close to the warp bubble.
The ship just distorts its own local space. I guess an abuse of warp travel in all directions would seriously screw the fabric of space and explain all the odd stuff in Trek. :)

Ah, menstruation. You never get used to it.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Technically, their FTL tech doesn't have them crash into stuff at stupid speeds. The warping effect would make those particles "hit" the ship at the speed at which she flew before activating warp, as the particles would come close to the warp bubble.
The ship just distorts its own local space. I guess an abuse of warp travel in all directions would seriously screw the fabric of space and explain all the odd stuff in Trek. :)

Broken Bow wrote: TUCKER: Beautiful. Lock it off right there. (wipes a fingerprint off the warp console) 

REED: I believe you missed a spot. Commander Tucker, Ensign Travis Mayweather. He just arrived. 

TUCKER: Our space boomer. 

TRAVIS: How fast have you gotten her? 

TUCKER: Warp four. We'll be going to four five as soon as we clear Jupiter. Think you can handle it? 

TRAVIS: Four point five. 

REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist. 

TUCKER: Keep your shirt on, Lieutenant. Your equipment'll be here in the morning.

Crashing into stuff while at warp is a problem, and always has been. The first time we see this problem is in one of the TOS episodes with Harry Mud.

Lucky wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote: Technically, their FTL tech doesn't have them crash into stuff at stupid speeds. The warping effect would make those particles "hit" the ship at the speed at which she flew before activating warp, as the particles would come close to the warp bubble.
The ship just distorts its own local space. I guess an abuse of warp travel in all directions would seriously screw the fabric of space and explain all the odd stuff in Trek. :)

Broken Bow wrote: TUCKER: Beautiful. Lock it off right there. (wipes a fingerprint off the warp console) 

REED: I believe you missed a spot. Commander Tucker, Ensign Travis Mayweather. He just arrived. 

TUCKER: Our space boomer. 

TRAVIS: How fast have you gotten her? 

TUCKER: Warp four. We'll be going to four five as soon as we clear Jupiter. Think you can handle it? 

TRAVIS: Four point five. 

REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist. 

TUCKER: Keep your shirt on, Lieutenant. Your equipment'll be here in the morning.

Crashing into stuff while at warp is a problem, and always has been. The first time we see this problem is in one of the TOS episodes with Harry Mud.

It's not a real warp drive then. The object moving in the warp would not be moving at FTL relative to any object entering its own warp field. And that's the least of the problems of a "realistic" warp drive.
The warp drive in Trek is solely aimed at lightening the ship (which is an effect that is documented in Trek), and only then particles are a danger.