Starfleet Jedi

I was recently thinking again about Nemesis ramming, so I went to Darkstar's page. Enterprise-E diverted all avaliable power to engines, yet moved at pace of lumbering whale, contrary to known acceleration rates, and even previous combat. Is it possible that inertial dampening fields were down, making Enterprise opt for increasing its own mass instead of increased acceleration? Warp field could also have allowed ship to ignore shields - both ships were of similar size, and we also see Jem'Hadar bugships ramming BoP's with previous exchange of fire being sporadic at best.

Here's the critical thing of it, the E-E by this point in time had suffered horrendous damage and take particular note of the phasers being taken down to just four percent:

PICARD: Report.

DATA: We've exhausted our complement of photon torpedoes. Phaser banks are down to four percent, sir.

PICARD: What if we targeted all phasers in a concentrated pattern?

LAFORGE: The Scimitar's shields are still at seventy percent. It would make no difference, Captain.
(they watch the Scimitar through the hull breach)

TROI: What's he doing?

PICARD: He wants to look me in the eye. ...We've got him. ...He thinks he knows exactly what I'm going to do. Geordi, divert all power to the engines. Take it from life support if you have to. Give me everything you've got.

So if they don't have that much power to begin with, such that Picard is ordering even life support pumped into the effort, it seems likely then that an undamaged E-E could've done far better. But let's look at the scene on video here. At 1:27 to 1:29 the E-E has accelerated enough that she is doing around 300 meters/sec. So the following:


Conversions:

mass (m) = 3500000 ton metric = 3500000000 kilogram
velocity (v) = 300 meter/second = 300 meter/second


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution:

kinetic energy (K) = 1.575E+14 joule

Or approximately 150 TJ of kinetic energy. That's not too bad for a ship that'd taken a major beating and had lost main power at the start of the fight.
-Mike

Which is approximately 35.9 KT of Kinetic energy, so the Scimitar has a much trouble vs Kinetic impacts as an ISD...
Of course, we are talking about 35.9 KT impact on a thinner, almost blade-like surface (the E-E's saucer) compared to the broader surface of the asteroid hitting the ISD...

Asteroid hit the bridge, which is not very well armored (going by looks of it). E-E hit the Scimitar's hangar bay, and maybe few decks below it.

So if they don't have that much power to begin with, such that Picard is ordering even life support pumped into the effort, it seems likely then that an undamaged E-E could've done far better. But let's look at the scene on video here. At 1:27 to 1:29 the E-E has accelerated enough that she is doing around 300 meters/sec. So the following:

Do we have any other KE events? Beacouse they could have increased apparent mass of the ship, instead of going for better acceleration, if inertial dampeners went off-line. However, that is pure unsupported speculation at this point, which is why I am asking for these events...

Picard wrote:so I went to Darkstar's page.

...fine with that, I guess.

Enterprise-E diverted all avaliable power to engines, yet moved at pace of lumbering whale, contrary to known acceleration rates,

Have you considered the possibility that maybe the fact that the indisputable, onscreen acceleration rate should dictate the "known" (read: speculated) acceleration rate and not the other way around?

and even previous combat.

Not really. Not by any significant margin.

Is it possible that inertial dampening fields were down, making Enterprise opt for increasing its own mass instead of increased acceleration?

The Enterprise cannot increase its own mass, Picard. How would it do that? Make its hull thicker? We clearly see it stay the same. Make its material more dense? That would require the composition of the hull to magically change, which we clearly do not see. And where does this extra mass come from? Does the energy needed to add more mass to the ship not exceed the energy needed to simply ram the damn thing a little faster?

Warp field could also have allowed ship to ignore shields - both ships were of similar size, and we also see Jem'Hadar bugships ramming BoP's with previous exchange of fire being sporadic at best.

Please, this is weak speculation.

So if they don't have that much power to begin with, such that Picard is ordering even life support pumped into the effort, it seems likely then that an undamaged E-E could've done far better. But let's look at the scene on video here. At 1:27 to 1:29 the E-E has accelerated enough that she is doing around 300 meters/sec. So the following:


Conversions:

mass (m) = 3500000 ton metric = 3500000000 kilogram
velocity (v) = 300 meter/second = 300 meter/second


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution:

kinetic energy (K) = 1.575E+14 joule

Or approximately 150 TJ of kinetic energy. That's not too bad for a ship that'd taken a major beating and had lost main power at the start of the fight.

No, it's not, but it's also unimpressive. If the Enterprise's full output at the time was only 150 TJ over several seconds, a single, 1% power phaser beam or photon torpedo (using your calcs) should have shattered the ship and killed its crew.

Which is approximately 35.9 KT of Kinetic energy, so the Scimitar has a much trouble vs Kinetic impacts as an ISD...
Of course, we are talking about 35.9 KT impact on a thinner, almost blade-like surface (the E-E's saucer) compared to the broader surface of the asteroid hitting the ISD...

Remember that the stated acceleration rate for ISDs (by sourcebooks not written by Saxton, often times minimalist ones) is 1700 G's. Based on their ability to circumnavigate Endor and decelerate right behind the Rebel fleet within seconds, it is much higher.

SWST wrote:

Me wrote:Which is approximately 35.9 KT of Kinetic energy, so the Scimitar has a much trouble vs Kinetic impacts as an ISD...
Of course, we are talking about 35.9 KT impact on a thinner, almost blade-like surface (the E-E's saucer) compared to the broader surface of the asteroid hitting the ISD...

Remember that the stated acceleration rate for ISDs (by sourcebooks not written by Saxton, often times minimalist ones) is 1700 G's. Based on their ability to circumnavigate Endor and decelerate right behind the Rebel fleet within seconds, it is much higher.

What the hell does it have to do with the impact?????

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:...fine with that, I guess.

I don't see any problem here. I don't have movie accessible right now, and my guess is that most if not all Youtube videos with it have been eradicated. Besides, I'm currently using mobile internet. Crappy speed.

Have you considered the possibility that maybe the fact that the indisputable, onscreen acceleration rate should dictate the "known" (read: speculated) acceleration rate and not the other way around?

Story > dialogue > visuals, not the other way 'rond. Check TMP for values.

Refit Enterprise went from Earth to Jupiter in 1.8 hours. That is about 2852 G's.

Not really. Not by any significant margin.

That I agree on.

The Enterprise cannot increase its own mass, Picard. How would it do that? Make its hull thicker? We clearly see it stay the same. Make its material more dense? That would require the composition of the hull to magically change, which we clearly do not see. And where does this extra mass come from? Does the energy needed to add more mass to the ship not exceed the energy needed to simply ram the damn thing a little faster?

They can manipulate mass, that much is clear. They have mass lightening devices.

Besides, it shows that you don't understand some basics you should.

Total amount of energy in universe is constant; it cannot be changed by any means at all. However...

Matter is also type of energy. Energy in waiting, I'd say. Matter can be converted into energy, and vice-versa (E = mc^2).

Gravitation works by warping timespace – actually, it is result of massive object warping timespace around it, drawing other objects toward it. Given that they have warp drives, which can warp timespace, means that, for Federation, mass manipulation is easy enough.

Please, this is weak speculation.

It is, I can't and I won't deny that. But ignoring dozens of other incidents when we see shields glow just beacouse of this one is unacceptable.

No, it's not, but it's also unimpressive. If the Enterprise's full output at the time was only 150 TJ over several seconds, a single, 1% power phaser beam or photon torpedo (using your calcs) should have shattered the ship and killed its crew.

There is SIF. SIF of one ship may cancel SIF of another. As I said before, ignoring everything seen before Nemesis just due to that one badly written movie is wrong. Yet, some try to do it, else Darkstar wouldn't have had to write that page.

Remember that the stated acceleration rate for ISDs (by sourcebooks not written by Saxton, often times minimalist ones) is 1700 G's. Based on their ability to circumnavigate Endor and decelerate right behind the Rebel fleet within seconds, it is much higher.

Did they circumnavigate Endor, or were waiting there? Or made tactical jump?

Besides, it's off-topic. If you want, create a thread titled "Endor circumnavigation", "Star Wars acceleration", "Star Wars vs Star Trek acceleration" or something to that effect.

Praeothmin wrote:

SWST wrote:

Me wrote:Which is approximately 35.9 KT of Kinetic energy, so the Scimitar has a much trouble vs Kinetic impacts as an ISD...
Of course, we are talking about 35.9 KT impact on a thinner, almost blade-like surface (the E-E's saucer) compared to the broader surface of the asteroid hitting the ISD...

Remember that the stated acceleration rate for ISDs (by sourcebooks not written by Saxton, often times minimalist ones) is 1700 G's. Based on their ability to circumnavigate Endor and decelerate right behind the Rebel fleet within seconds, it is much higher.

What the hell does it have to do with the impact?????

I'm kind of curious about that, too. The Nemesis impact scene is not being compared to anything else, and Picard did not start this as a specific Versus debate thread. So can we kindly keep this to the subject at hand?
-Mike

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:No, it's not, but it's also unimpressive. If the Enterprise's full output at the time was only 150 TJ over several seconds, a single, 1% power phaser beam or photon torpedo (using your calcs) should have shattered the ship and killed its crew.

What? How do you figure that? The E-E was severely damaged after being sneak attacked by the Scimitar which knocked out the warp core in the first volley. And we're not talking about the ship's power generation per say, we're talking that they managed to accelerate a big multi-million ton ship to nearly sonic speed.

The only reason the E-E wasn't blown to bits in the first seconds of fighting the way the two warbirds were was because Shinzon desperately needed Picard alive in order to effect the transfusion which would in turn save his own life. See, there's this thing called "context" which I notice you go greatly out of your way to avoid.

as Praeo correctly points out, the Scimitar's hanger bay is still taking a very concentrated 150 TJ by the knife-edge E-E saucer section regardless of how many seconds of thrust by the E-E's impulse engines were required. In fact, given that the E-E was still accelerating when it hit the Scimitar, it probably dealt quite a bit more than that.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:
I'm kind of curious about that, too. The Nemesis impact scene is not being compared to anything else, and Picard did not start this as a specific Versus debate thread. So can we kindly keep this to the subject at hand?
-Mike

so the Scimitar has a much trouble vs Kinetic impacts as an ISD...

That being said, I will stop after I respond to Picard here.

Picard wrote:

Story > dialogue > visuals, not the other way 'rond. Check TMP for values.

So if a man tells you that he is 6 foot 2, yet you see him and he is clearly 6 foot 1, you will trust the dialogue.

Of course, if story > visuals, that would mean that nitpicking the Death Star's visual effects to override the story (that the massive battlestation can blow up a planet)/authorial intent (do you honestly think that Lucas sat down and decided to make the superlaser a giant chain reaction weapon?) is invalid.

Refit Enterprise went from Earth to Jupiter in 1.8 hours. That is about 2852 G's.

By your own claim that dialogue > visuals, Spock claims that an overloaded impulse drive engine would yield around 100 megatons. This is not enough to go from Earth to Jupiter in 1.8 hours.

They can manipulate mass, that much is clear. They have mass lightening devices.

Besides, it shows that you don't understand some basics you should.

Total amount of energy in universe is constant; it cannot be changed by any means at all. However...

Matter is also type of energy. Energy in waiting, I'd say. Matter can be converted into energy, and vice-versa (E = mc^2).

Gravitation works by warping timespace – actually, it is result of massive object warping timespace around it, drawing other objects toward it. Given that they have warp drives, which can warp timespace, means that, for Federation, mass manipulation is easy enough.

Still conjecture, and more than conjecture is needed to override conservation of energy, Picard.

It is, I can't and I won't deny that. But ignoring dozens of other incidents when we see shields glow just beacouse of this one is unacceptable.

Simple. The shields were either down or very weak.

There is SIF. SIF of one ship may cancel SIF of another. As I said before, ignoring everything seen before Nemesis just due to that one badly written movie is wrong. Yet, some try to do it, else Darkstar wouldn't have had to write that page.

You don't honestly think that Nemesis is the only example of slow ramming ships penetrating hulls and shields, do you?

Did they circumnavigate Endor, or were waiting there? Or made tactical jump?

If they were waiting there, the Rebel fleet would have seen them beforehand. And the novelization quote clearly debunks that a tactical jump was used:

The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go.

Besides, it's off-topic. If you want, create a thread titled "Endor circumnavigation", "Star Wars acceleration", "Star Wars vs Star Trek acceleration" or something to that effect.

Fair enough.

We see the refit pull away from earth in TMP and it accelerates to a good % of c very rapidly.

The E-E in Nemesis was under constant force of its engines so while it did not move fast (as doing so would kill the entire crew on impact) the force from the engines increasing to compensate for the resistance of hull to hull impact meant it pushed into the scimitar to the required depth.

Imagine a truck with bundles more power available than it needs to move at 100mph but only using enough to keep it moving at 100mph, it hits resistance like a wall and instead of slowing it just increases its power-output to keep it moving at the same speed through what is resisting it.

This is the most reasonable explanation for what happened in that scene as we know a fed ship has the power to reach high percentages of c so keeping the velocity low but the force constant no matter the resistance met gives them the ability to do what we saw.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:So if a man tells you that he is 6 foot 2, yet you see him and he is clearly 6 foot 1, you will trust the dialogue.

No, beacouse he's lying then. But you're strawmaning, again. Last I checked, living people are not VFX that is limited by technology, and it doesn't have anything to do with way movies etc. are made.

Of course, if story > visuals, that would mean that nitpicking the Death Star's visual effects to override the story (that the massive battlestation can blow up a planet)/authorial intent (do you honestly think that Lucas sat down and decided to make the superlaser a giant chain reaction weapon?) is invalid.

Strawman. Noone denied that Death Star can blow up planets. Only quoestion is how.

By your own claim that dialogue > visuals, Spock claims that an overloaded impulse drive engine would yield around 100 megatons. This is not enough to go from Earth to Jupiter in 1.8 hours.

Funny. I wasn't aware that we actually spent time sitting 1.8 hours, waiting for E-Nil to go from Earth to Jupiter. Or you're bullshitting, which seems the case now.

Besides, you are forgetting one nice thing called warp field. Meaning that weaker impulse engines can achieve better acceleration, beacouse there is less mass to move when warp field is active.

Still conjecture, and more than conjecture is needed to override conservation of energy, Picard.

Federation manipulating mass is a fact. Just take a look at pilot episode of DS9, when they move title station from Bajor to the wormhole.

Or am I to assume that you don't know what you're talking about?

Simple. The shields were either down or very weak.

Very weak shields should still show glow, so they were down. I'm only troubled at why would Shinzon lower them, but even with my idea, shields still should be glowing at impact.

You don't honestly think that Nemesis is the only example of slow ramming ships penetrating hulls and shields, do you?

Yes. All others I can remember that actually penetrated hulls involved warp cores exploding, and rammings were generally not attempted against shielded ships.

Picard wrote:Asteroid hit the bridge, which is not very well armored (going by looks of it). E-E hit the Scimitar's hangar bay, and maybe few decks below it.

So if they don't have that much power to begin with, such that Picard is ordering even life support pumped into the effort, it seems likely then that an undamaged E-E could've done far better. But let's look at the scene on video here. At 1:27 to 1:29 the E-E has accelerated enough that she is doing around 300 meters/sec. So the following:

Do we have any other KE events? Beacouse they could have increased apparent mass of the ship, instead of going for better acceleration, if inertial dampeners went off-line. However, that is pure unsupported speculation at this point, which is why I am asking for these events...

Federation ships manipulate gravity by manipulating gravitons. That means they can increase gravity without manipulating mass.

The mass manipulation technology we see seems to rarely be used, and not more efficient then normal propulsion.

I said "Increase apparent mass", which is weight

Picard wrote:I said "Increase apparent mass", which is weight

Where do we see anything to indicate this ability?

We see warp ramming is a viable tactic when the E-D faced the Borg as I recall.

We know the Federation uses anti-gravity thrusters.

Face it Star Trek does not excel in all technologies. Unlike Star Trek Star Wars and 40K have practical and efficient mass manipulation tech.