Starfleet Jedi

Praeothmin wrote: Based on nothing in general, ignoring the fact that standard radiation can and does interfere with sensors on many occasions in ST...

Praeothmin, I seem to recall asking you to back up this claim, but you not providing examples or evidence of what he/she has in mind. If Trek sensors aren't bothered by stars, black hole, planets, or neutron stars normally it must not be as simple as you want it to be.

Simple flares are top of the line ECM in Star Wars.

Praeothmin wrote: And who were those with similar calculations?
Darkstar?
Picard uses 500MT for torpedoes, a number that came up from who knows where, and bases all his other calculations and estimates on that number...
I honestly have a hard time with the 500MT number just as much as I have with the 200GT ICS number fo HTLs...

They were at Spacebattles.com, and I think JMS got similar numbers here for Skin Of Evil, but the problem is the oily blob thing, and the shuttle craft provide major unknowns. 500 kilometer fireballs need a lot of energy from somewhere to form.

Similarly Pegasus has a few unknowns that could make it in the gigaton range as I recall. Then there is you own extremely conservative calcs.: http://forums.asvs.org/topic/357-revisi ... #entry2833

Then there is Rise where Picard gets similar results to vivftp and Darkstar vivftp was using Wong's asteroid calculator so the true yields should be much higher then he/she got.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Sci ... roids.html.
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=124136
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWrise.html

One thing to keep in mind with Rise is they were going for just enough boom.

Praeothmin wrote: Why do you want ST to be so muych better than it is?

You mean nerf Star Trek, misrepresent the facts like you do, and then when called on it run away?

Praeothmin wrote: Why do you absolutely refuse to give SW anything at all, even when it has shown it has it, like anti-gravity...

If G-canon says they don't have it they don't have it. I'm not one of those people who assumes big and scary mean advanced and powerful.

Lucky wrote:Praeothmin, I seem to recall asking you to back up this claim, but you not providing examples or evidence of what he/she has in mind.

While I have no specifics, I'm sure people like Mike and JMS will recall the many times we've been told "The radiation in the planet's ionosphere is interfering with our sensors", and other incidents like it...

Simple flares are top of the line ECM in Star Wars.

Right, like the DS II was jamming the Rebel's scanners with flares...

Concerning the firepower, there are instances of lower firepower as well, just as much as there are some for high firepower.
Same thing in the SW movies, where the Slave one's guns were pretty powerful, even if not ICS level of power... :)

There are both ends in ST and SW, and you always seem to take the high-end examples for Trek and the low-ends for SW.
This is why I said what I did.

You mean nerf Star Trek, misrepresent the facts like you do, and then when called on it run away?

No, I mean only using the high-end feats and ignoring the low ones, like you seem to do...
And my "running away" is simply me having a real life, and good priorities... :)

If G-canon says they don't have it they don't have it. I'm not one of those people who assumes big and scary mean advanced and powerful.

Problem with this is, G-Canon does not state they don't have it, it shows things that look like anti-grav, and the lower canon says it is.
The fact you don't want it to be doesn't change this, and doesn't mean there is no anti-grav in SW...
And I agree, big and scary does not mean advanced and powerful, but unlike you, I don't feel the discrepency between SW and ST is as big as you make it...

Praeothmin wrote: While I have no specifics, I'm sure people like Mike and JMS will recall the many times we've been told "The radiation in the planet's ionosphere is interfering with our sensors", and other incidents like it...

Then get some specifics, or stop bring it up. Do you really want to be doing the exact same thing as StarWarsStarTrek, things that go against board rules?

Praeothmin wrote: Right, like the DS II was jamming the Rebel's scanners with flares...

In "Cat and Mouse" flares are fired into space in order to make homing missiles target them instead of the ship.

Revenge of the Sith as I recall has just doing barrel roles enough to make weapons lose their lock.

The Rebels had no trouble talking to each other, or scanning stuff, and Vader had little trouble targeting the rebels. Quantify the ECM. Back up your claims.

Praeothmin wrote: Concerning the firepower, there are instances of lower firepower as well, just as much as there are some for high firepower.
Same thing in the SW movies, where the Slave one's guns were pretty powerful, even if not ICS level of power... :)

I'm sure this is some sort of logic fallacy in this.

Strange, I'm the one who argues for at least the capability of firing at least near mega-joule blasts for Star Wars fighters, and Megaton for Star Destroyers.

Praeothmin wrote: There are both ends in ST and SW, and you always seem to take the high-end examples for Trek and the low-ends for SW.
This is why I said what I did.

It's not my fault Star Wars doesn't have high high ends, and Trek has canon dial a yield weapons.

Just because Star wars is not what you think it should be does not make me a nerfer.

Praeothmin wrote: No, I mean only using the high-end feats and ignoring the low ones, like you seem to do...
And my "running away" is simply me having a real life, and good priorities... :)

Now you need to give examples of these low end examples, provide evidence.The two low ends I can think of have things about them that are odd.

Praeothmin wrote: Problem with this is, G-Canon does not state they don't have it, it shows things that look like anti-grav, and the lower canon says it is.
The fact you don't want it to be doesn't change this, and doesn't mean there is no anti-grav in SW...
And I agree, big and scary does not mean advanced and powerful, but unlike you, I don't feel the discrepency between SW and ST is as big as you make it...

Star Wars repulsor lifts are shown to actively push off the ground in Liberty on Ryloth.

Praeothmin wrote:I may have been.
Sorry if I was abrupt to anyone, I guess I displayed a lot less patience than I usually do in debates...

No need to apologise, I didn't mean to imply you've been rude to anyone. Its just that for years it seems nothing and than suddenly out of the blue you've had, what, two or three debates on weapons range? Again sorry for the misunderstanding.

lucky wrote:You mean nerf Star Trek, misrepresent the facts like you do, and then when called on it run away?

I think you're overreacting here Lucky. Praeothmin disagrees with you on certain subjects concerning Trek and Wars. He's entitled to that as much as anyone else. Nothing will be gained by acting as if he's a frothing radical.

Lucky wrote:Then get some specifics, or stop bring it up. Do you really want to be doing the exact same thing as StarWarsStarTrek, things that go against board rules?

You are correct, of course.
This is what I mentioned, where Geordi mentions it as a way to mask the Pegasus from Romulan sensors, in the episode of the same name...
They could have blocked Transporter locks (again, sensors) in "The Quality of Life"...
As natural radiation has only two states, Ionizing and non-ionizing, then natural radiation in sufficient amount can interfere with ST sensors...

The word radiation is commonly used in reference to ionizing radiation only, although radio-waves are also radiation under the real definition, simply they are non-ionizing radiations...

In "Cat and Mouse" flares are fired into space in order to make homing missiles target them instead of the ship.

Revenge of the Sith as I recall has just doing barrel roles enough to make weapons lose their lock.

The Rebels had no trouble talking to each other, or scanning stuff, and Vader had little trouble targeting the rebels. Quantify the ECM. Back up your claims.

Where, exactly, did I say all the ships in SW were capable of using ECM?
I believe that for ECM to be efficient, you need a powerful jamming source, such as only capital ships can provide.
In the absence of ECM capabilities, you need defensive tools such as flares for when the enemy really does have a lock on you...

As for the jamming in RotJ, I haven't read the novel, so I don't know if the jamming method was mentioned.
But what I do know is that the first DS had a powerful magnetic shield, and that it created sufficient interference with ship sensors so that they had to look for enemies using the old eyeball mk1...
As for Vader, he worked for the bad guys, so he could have had equipment to counter his own side's ECM...
Although I'm not sure of this, since you will notice it took time for him to target ships that were, according to visuals, barely a few hundred meters in front of him, and going in a relatively straight path...

In RotJ, the again say they are being jammed, but they do not mention how.
Logic, and inferred evidence would suggest the same way they were in ANH, but it is certainly not due to flares...
Plus, the jamming must be powerful, because even the Rebel Capital ships were not able to pierce that jamming...
If it isn't ECM, what is it then?
What makes you think it cannot be ECM?

Strange, I'm the one who argues for at least the capability of firing at least near mega-joule blasts for Star Wars fighters, and Megaton for Star Destroyers.

And if you read my posts carefully over at ASVS, you'll notice I also believe in low MT for an ISD's HTLs...

As far as firepower is concerned, what are the high examples you use for ST?
"Skin of Evil", where the M/AM reserves from the shuttle probably served as the main fuel for the explosion?
"Rise", where the scaling of the asteroid is far more uncertain than the one in "Pegasus"?
"Masks", where the vaporized ice barely even creates any steam?

Most of the ultra-high end feats for ST are very debatable as well, which is why I like to use the middle ground.
I mean, it is true that the E-D's 11% stronger torpedoes in "Genesis" did not appear in the MT range at all, which in and of itself requires good mental gymnastics to reconcile with higher showings...

It's not my fault Star Wars doesn't have high high ends, and Trek has canon dial a yield weapons.

The problem is when someone decides to do "an SDN" and use only the lowest for one and the highest for the other, while ignoring the lowest for their favorite shows.
The dial-a-yield nature of ST weapons does not explain all the low showings in the shows and movies, like the Borg weapon in FC...
And TESB does show the possibility of MT MTLs and HTLs, even if in the low MT...

Let us be clear:
One-on-one, an ISD, IMO, is not a match for a GCS. We have to much information about bioth ships' capabilities to doubt that the GCS would win, even though it would take heavy damage.
But an ISD can take on 3 Mirandas with a slim hope of winning, and would mop the floor with one...

Star Wars repulsor lifts are shown to actively push off the ground in Liberty on Ryloth.

And Yoda's anti-grav chair doesn't, in RotS and AotC...

Praeothmin disagrees with you on certain subjects concerning Trek and Wars. He's entitled to that as much as anyone else. Nothing will be gained by acting as if he's a frothing radical.

That's okay, everybody's entitled to their opinion, and I do believe I may have exagerated a tad in my post over at ASVS...
I was indeed less relaxed than usual, but I'm all better now... :)

Praeothmin wrote: You are correct, of course.
This is what I mentioned, where Geordi mentions it as a way to mask the Pegasus from Romulan sensors, in the episode of the same name...
They could have blocked Transporter locks (again, sensors) in "The Quality of Life"...
As natural radiation has only two states, Ionizing and non-ionizing, then natural radiation in sufficient amount can interfere with ST sensors...

The word radiation is commonly used in reference to ionizing radiation only, although radio-waves are also radiation under the real definition, simply they are non-ionizing radiations...

Was that real that hard?

Those must be some pretty extreme/exotic cases of ionization because Stars don't cause much trouble from what I recall.

Praeothmin wrote: Where, exactly, did I say all the ships in SW were capable of using ECM?
I believe that for ECM to be efficient, you need a powerful jamming source, such as only capital ships can provide.
In the absence of ECM capabilities, you need defensive tools such as flares for when the enemy really does have a lock on you...

I gave examples that sensors aren't very good to begin with.

Praeothmin wrote: As for the jamming in RotJ, I haven't read the novel, so I don't know if the jamming method was mentioned.
But what I do know is that the first DS had a powerful magnetic shield, and that it created sufficient interference with ship sensors so that they had to look for enemies using the old eyeball mk1...
As for Vader, he worked for the bad guys, so he could have had equipment to counter his own side's ECM...
Although I'm not sure of this, since you will notice it took time for him to target ships that were, according to visuals, barely a few hundred meters in front of him, and going in a relatively straight path...

The Mark-I eyeball tends to be the best sensor system in Star Wars since it seems to have a longer range then the electronic versions. How many times do they see stuff before their sensors pick them up?

Praeothmin wrote:In RotJ, the again say they are being jammed, but they do not mention how.
Logic, and inferred evidence would suggest the same way they were in ANH, but it is certainly not due to flares...
Plus, the jamming must be powerful, because even the Rebel Capital ships were not able to pierce that jamming...
If it isn't ECM, what is it then?
What makes you think it cannot be ECM?

Strange that again communications work just fine, and targeting sensors seemed to be working well.

Flares are counter measures for infrared sensors for things like missiles. They logically should not work with the sensors we see in Star Wars, but they do.

I'm just saying Star Wars sensors tend to be crap, and if that is the case we have no reason to think their ECM is very good.

Praeothmin wrote: "Skin of Evil", where the M/AM reserves from the shuttle probably served as the main fuel for the explosion?

Like I said, there are several unknowns in that case. One of which is the fact the black oily thing would be trying to protect the shuttle from the torpedo at least if it saw the torpedo coming. Mr.Pile of sludge may have made the explosion smaller for all we know.

Where are we told the shuttle had anti-matter in it? I don't recall it ever being stated what fuel shuttles use.

Praeothmin wrote: "Rise", where the scaling of the asteroid is far more uncertain than the one in "Pegasus"?

I've never heard the rise scalings to be disputed. I've heard people say, "but it wasn't vaporized", but never dispute the scalings.

Praeothmin wrote: "Masks", where the vaporized ice barely even creates any steam?

Phasers, since when have they ever been claimed to be pure DET?

Praeothmin wrote: Most of the ultra-high end feats for ST are very debatable as well, which is why I like to use the middle ground.

So you use "Rise" calculations that give about 100 megatons, or do you use Obsesion's ounce of anti-matter and the tech manuals?^_^

Praeothmin wrote: I mean, it is true that the E-D's 11% stronger torpedoes in "Genesis" did not appear in the MT range at all, which in and of itself requires good mental gymnastics to reconcile with higher showings...

So what is wrong with it, and what should it have looked like?

Why should a matter/anti-matter reaction be seen at all?

Praeothmin wrote: The problem is when someone decides to do "an SDN" and use only the lowest for one and the highest for the other, while ignoring the lowest for their favorite shows.

Just so long as you do the same thing for both sides it doesn't matter.

Praeothmin wrote: The dial-a-yield nature of ST weapons does not explain all the low showings in the shows and movies, like the Borg weapon in FC...

We have very good reasons to think it was likely damaged, and we don't know what the weapon it used was designed to do. I would expect an anti-shield weapon to be less effective on things other then shields.

Praeothmin wrote: And TESB does show the possibility of MT MTLs and HTLs, even if in the low MT...

They were using a medium/heavy gun to shoot the asteroids, and in the Malevolence trilogy we see little reason to not think the difference between light and heavy guns is not very large.

Praeothmin wrote: Let us be clear:
One-on-one, an ISD, IMO, is not a match for a GCS. We have to much information about bioth ships' capabilities to doubt that the GCS would win, even though it would take heavy damage.
But an ISD can take on 3 Mirandas with a slim hope of winning, and would mop the floor with one...

If you use the number of ships expected to be used to do a BDZ and G.O.24 it doesn't look that even.

Praeothmin wrote: And Yoda's anti-grav chair doesn't, in RotS and AotC...

When did someone suddenly pull the ground out from under Yoda's chair?

Praeothmin wrote: That's okay, everybody's entitled to their opinion, and I do believe I may have exagerated a tad in my post over at ASVS...
I was indeed less relaxed than usual, but I'm all better now... :)

sonofccn wrote: I think you're overreacting here Lucky. Praeothmin disagrees with you on certain subjects concerning Trek and Wars. He's entitled to that as much as anyone else. Nothing will be gained by acting as if he's a frothing radical.

I just don't like being called a trekkie since i don't like Star Trek in general.

He/she went to a different board, and started insulting members of this board. If he/she had just started going over the problems with Picard's results, and conclusions I would have not cared.

Lucky wrote:Those must be some pretty extreme/exotic cases of ionization because Stars don't cause much trouble from what I recall.

Those were the examples I could quickly find in writing, but there are many, many more examples of radiation impeding sensors and Tricorders during the shows...

I gave examples that sensors aren't very good to begin with

And while sensors in ST are much better than in SW, they aren't perfect either.
How many times did we see Starfleet personnel walk down a corridor, Tricorder in hand, using it to find an intruder, or their quarry, only to still be surprised by said intruder when they got close?

How many times did we see misses in battle, at spitball range, against opposing vessels?
ST: Gen gives us the BoP missing the E-D, barely a few km in front of her, and only performing a slight turning maneuver, and still the BoP missed...
DS9 has us witness the station missing non-maneuvering Klingon vessels, again at most a few km from the station, with a Hit-miss ratio close to 60% (the episode when the Klingons attack the station)...
"Sacrifice or Angels" and the Chin'toka battles also give us misses not too far away...
Trek sensors are better then SW sensors, to be sure, but they are not, nor have they ever been, perfect, and can be fooled by many means, like using the Lagrange point of a planet to escape notice, and many others...

targeting sensors seemed to be working well.

Where do you get that impression from?
They didn't seem to work that well to me in ANH, nor in RotJ...

Flares are counter measures for infrared sensors for things like missiles. They logically should not work with the sensors we see in Star Wars, but they do.

Unless they are special flares designed to fool SW sensors, which they probably are...

Let's try this differently:
If I said ST targetting sensors are crap because ST doesn't use jamming and they still miss at spitball range, what would you say to explain this?

Like I said, there are several unknowns in that case. One of which is the fact the black oily thing would be trying to protect the shuttle from the torpedo at least if it saw the torpedo coming. Mr.Pile of sludge may have made the explosion smaller for all we know.

Where are we told the shuttle had anti-matter in it? I don't recall it ever being stated what fuel shuttles use.

But he didn't display that kind of power.
As for the shuttle, it had Warp Nacelles, thus had a Warp Core, and thus needed M/AM as fuel...

I've never heard the rise scalings to be disputed. I've heard people say, "but it wasn't vaporized", but never dispute the scalings.

I have, since many of the scaling's I've seen were based off of the Torpedo's glow, and on whether or not it had grown once fired or not...

The "It wasn't vaporized", I don't mind as much, because it was the expected result, as clearly stated in dialogue...

Phasers, since when have they ever been claimed to be pure DET?

Nowhere, not by you or me, but Masks is still often used as a high showing for firepower in ST.
What are the ones you use?

So you use "Rise" calculations that give about 100 megatons, or do you use Obsesion's ounce of anti-matter and the tech manuals?^_^

Rise is in dispute since scaling is uncertain, the Tech manual isn't canon and has many incidents disputing it, and Obsession has ST's Über AM used in an explosive of some kind, and is truly an outlier since the explosion was incredible...

So what is wrong with it, and what should it have looked like?

Why should a matter/anti-matter reaction be seen at all?

Not the explosion itself, but the effects it had on the asteroids.
Depending on the size of the asteroid, it may have been in the high KT, and perhaps even in the low MT, which fits with "Pegasus", but is not "Rise" or "Skin Of Evil" material...

As for SW, we know from TESB's AT-AT firing on the shield generators that Blaster Cannons, and most likely TLs since they are pretty much the same type of weapons, have adjustable power settings, just like ST, so while TESB does give us mid KT to low MT depending on scaling, this isn't a high-end showing, as the power could have been at 10% of full power for all we know...

And in RotS, and TCW, we have very high ROF for SW ships, which may come at the expense of Firepower...
If yours shots have less time to charge for you to shoot them more often, it is only logical that they cannot then have enough time to charge to full power.
This can be logically concluded in that in the OT, the ROF was much lower, and shots seemed a bit more powerful...

Just so long as you do the same thing for both sides it doesn't matter.

That is what I try to do, and that is what I felt (perhaps wrongly) that you weren't doing...

We have very good reasons to think it was likely damaged, and we don't know what the weapon it used was designed to do. I would expect an anti-shield weapon to be less effective on things other then shields.

Just as I don't by the "They were dialed down because the Jedi were close by" excuse for the poor AotC showings, I don't buy this for the FC showing.
The Borg clearly wanted to destroy the Phoenix and all the humans involved in order to stop Earth from ever becoming a space-faring behemoth, and yet their shots were pitiful, to say the least.
While I do see this instance as an outlier because of higher showings, this does show us far less powerful weapons than those high MTs and low GTs some people argue for ST...

If you use the number of ships expected to be used to do a BDZ and G.O.24 it doesn't look that even.

While similar, the GO24 isn't exactly a BDZ...
This is what Scotty says, in "A Taste of Armageddon":

This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified,
and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes,
the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages

So the most populated centers of tha planet are to be destroyed, which in turn would be catastrophic for any planet.
Imagine 250 Torpedoes, even at 1-2 MT each, fired at the 250 most populous areas on Earth, plus one Phaser shot per Torpedo burst...
The ravages would be terrible, and while human life would not cease, it would have been dealt one hell of a blow, and I am pretty sure almost half would perish...
Civilization as we know it would be devastated, World economy destroyed, firestorms would be ravaging the ecosystems...
BDZ, if I remember correctly, also add "all fisheries, animal and plant life"...
So while it takes more than 1 ship to perform, their objective is much "grander", in a way...

When did someone suddenly pull the ground out from under Yoda's chair?

This actually made me think:
There's no way you can refute the existence of anti-grav in SW without first explaining how gravity works?
We think in ST it has to do with particles called "gravitons", but how do they work?
And by that, I am not talking about it's effects (bodies being attracted to one another), but how do they achieve the effects we see in both universes?
Without that explanation, you have no basis for saying "the speeder falls, so it's not anti-gravity"...

I just don't like being called a trekkie since i don't like Star Trek in general.

He/she went to a different board, and started insulting members of this board.

Calling someone a Trekkie isn't an insult.
I didn't call you an idiot, an imbecile, or anything like that.
I don't think you are.
I called you a Trekkie for the reasons I gave in my previous posts: I feel you wank ST to much and weaken SW more than you should...
I probably should have said that I "perceived this to be the case", because it comes from my perceptions of your way of debating, but it never was meant as an insult...

Actually Praeothmin, I seem to recall a TNG episode (can't remember the name, it was the one with that one-gendered race), that mentioned that shuttlecraft use nuclear fusion as a power source.

Also, just because a ship has warp nacelles, doesn't mean that it needs M/AM reactions to power it. Romulan ships use tiny black holes for power.

Khas wrote:Actually Praeothmin, I seem to recall a TNG episode (can't remember the name, it was the one with that one-gendered race), that mentioned that shuttlecraft use nuclear fusion as a power source.

Also, just because a ship has warp nacelles, doesn't mean that it needs M/AM reactions to power it. Romulan ships use tiny black holes for power.

But we are not talking about a romulan ship, but a Federation shuttle, and we know the Federation uses M/AM in their Warp engines, so unless it is specified the TNG shuttles use Fusion, popcicles or even raisin bran as fuel, we'll have to go with M/AM... :)

Praeothmin wrote: Those were the examples I could quickly find in writing, but there are many, many more examples of radiation impeding sensors and Tricorders during the shows...

Your only example is unquantifiable in it's own setting, and would at worst mean that a Star Wars ship pointing it's ion engines at a UFP ship, or turning on it's shields might make scanning something difficult.

Praeothmin wrote: And while sensors in ST are much better than in SW, they aren't perfect either.

That's like comparing WW-II sensor tech to modern stuff.

Praeothmin wrote:How many times did we see Starfleet personnel walk down a corridor, Tricorder in hand, using it to find an intruder, or their quarry, only to still be surprised by said intruder when they got close?

All the times that come to mind involve unquantifiable things like the guy being made untraceable with standard sensors..

Praeothmin wrote: How many times did we see misses in battle, at spitball range, against opposing vessels?

And

R2-D2 was at Vulcan

Phasers can be fired out torpedo tubes

Micro meteoroids are the size of baseballs and larger

Yes the visuals in Star Trek are oh so trust worthy. We must trust them above all else^_^

Praeothmin wrote: ST: Gen gives us the BoP missing the E-D, barely a few km in front of her, and only performing a slight turning maneuver, and still the BoP missed...

Are you the ships just aren't that large that they looked close? Star Trek Ships change size for no reason after all. Visuals are never wrong for any reason.^_^

Cool the UFP uses ECM.^_^

Seriously the misses we see the ships with weapons like the Klingons tend to use seems to be a form of aiming used in the real world when using machine guns.

Praeothmin wrote: DS9 has us witness the station missing non-maneuvering Klingon vessels, again at most a few km from the station, with a Hit-miss ratio close to 60% (the episode when the Klingons attack the station)...

Are the misses? How do you know the target just wasn't off screen, or the shot did exactly what it was suppose to?

Praeothmin wrote: "Sacrifice or Angels" and the Chin'toka battles also give us misses not too far away...

I seem to recall screwed VFXs in those battles. Perhaps a clip and time stamp to make sure I'm looking at what you mean?

Praeothmin wrote: Trek sensors are better then SW sensors, to be sure, but they are not, nor have they ever been, perfect, and can be fooled by many means, like using the Lagrange point of a planet to escape notice, and many others...

Yes ECM is a wonderful thing, but it's to bad Star Wars has nothing like Star Trek sensors systems. Heck it seems like Star Wars is stuck at WW-II ranges and sensor tech...

Praeothmin wrote: Where do you get that impression from?
They didn't seem to work that well to me in ANH, nor in RotJ...

They never had trouble hitting their targets in ROTJ. The only thing they couldn't see was if the shield was up or not, and after the trap was sprung we see no sign of problems with sensors.

In ANH the misses seemed to be human error to me.

Given the general shown performance of the tech ANH and ROTJ don't really stand out as poor showings.

Praeothmin wrote: Unless they are special flares designed to fool SW sensors, which they probably are...

That burn? Sounds like thermite to me.

Praeothmin wrote: Let's try this differently:
If I said ST targetting sensors are crap because ST doesn't use jamming and they still miss at spitball range, what would you say to explain this?

Sounds like stupidly good ECM to point where even visual sensors can't be trusted, or VFX screw ups.

Since Star Wars targeting sensors tend to be the Mark one eye ball what's your point?

Praeothmin wrote: But he didn't display that kind of power.

We don't know what mister oily blob could do. It seems like it had little problems blocking transporters, and warping space and time like when it took Riker inside it's self. It certain was not made out of mundane matter. It was as I recall describes as a psychic or spiritual being made of "evil", it would be right at home as a Sailor Moon big bad.

The only thing we know it could not do was leave the planet under it own power, and we don't know why.

Praeothmin wrote: As for the shuttle, it had Warp Nacelles, thus had a Warp Core, and thus needed M/AM as fuel...

What model of shuttle does not have Nacelles?
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:F ... le_classes

Maybe I'm forgetting something, but why does the shuttle need anything more then impulse?

Since when is anti-matter needed to use a warp drive?

Praeothmin wrote: I have, since many of the scaling's I've seen were based off of the Torpedo's glow, and on whether or not it had grown once fired or not...

That's what always happens when torpedos are fired in Star Trek. The glow always grows. You can tell the glow grows after firing with the naked eye.

How much the glow grows seems different every time, but the glow is always bigger then the torpedo.

I'd compare the results of the Rise scalings to Apocalypse Rising:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... hilit=Mith

The torpedo in Rise seemed to be set to explode on contact going by the visuals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH08YtGUw4U

Praeothmin wrote: The "It wasn't vaporized", I don't mind as much, because it was the expected result, as clearly stated in dialogue...

Well the "it wasn't vaporized" is the only complaint I ever heard.

Praeothmin wrote: Nowhere, not by you or me, but Masks is still often used as a high showing for firepower in ST.
What are the ones you use?

I prefer the tunneling about 3000 kilometer in 19 seconds.

The problem is that Star Trek energy weapons all seem to work through exotic means, and that means you can only get an effective yield. That is why people try to figure out the yields of more DET weapons like photon torpedos.

Praeothmin wrote: Rise is in dispute since scaling is uncertain, the Tech manual isn't canon and has many incidents disputing it, and Obsession has ST's Über AM used in an explosive of some kind, and is truly an outlier since the explosion was incredible...

But obsession is easily quantified, and everything did exactly what was expected. It certainly speaks highly of the power generation capabilities of Warp cores.

Praeothmin wrote: Not the explosion itself, but the effects it had on the asteroids.
Depending on the size of the asteroid, it may have been in the high KT, and perhaps even in the low MT, which fits with "Pegasus", but is not "Rise" or "Skin Of Evil" material...

Pegasus demands that there be nothing recognizable as a ship left, and they had no idea where in the exotic asteroid the ship was.

Wasn't the Pegasus asteroid reused in the Voyager episode "Phage"? They at least look similar.

Praeothmin wrote: As for SW, we know from TESB's AT-AT firing on the shield generators that Blaster Cannons, and most likely TLs since they are pretty much the same type of weapons, have adjustable power settings, just like ST, so while TESB does give us mid KT to low MT depending on scaling, this isn't a high-end showing, as the power could have been at 10% of full power for all we know...

The At-At's gun set off a chain reaction in TESB.

Praeothmin wrote: And in RotS, and TCW, we have very high ROF for SW ships, which may come at the expense of Firepower...
If yours shots have less time to charge for you to shoot them more often, it is only logical that they cannot then have enough time to charge to full power.
This can be logically concluded in that in the OT, the ROF was much lower, and shots seemed a bit more powerful...

Well since you bring up SW:TCW, in the Destroy the Malevolence arc Obi-Won orders full power to the heavy guns, something like two thirds of the guns stop shooting, and the rate of fire isn't really changed.

I wonder what kind of a yield we could get off the Malevolence if we assume armor similar the armor on the Invisible Hand? We know the upper limits for the armor on the Invisible Hand since it kind of burnt up on reentry in Ep.III.

Praeothmin wrote: That is what I try to do, and that is what I felt (perhaps wrongly) that you weren't doing...

Different canon policies dictate how you analyze a series, and that can leave you with having almost only the visuals to go by. The truth is I don't like like using just visuals to quantify what a group in a series is capable of since I really don't trust visual effect to be correct 100% of the time.

Praeothmin wrote: Just as I don't by the "They were dialed down because the Jedi were close by" excuse for the poor AotC showings, I don't buy this for the FC showing.
The Borg clearly wanted to destroy the Phoenix and all the humans involved in order to stop Earth from ever becoming a space-faring behemoth, and yet their shots were pitiful, to say the least.
While I do see this instance as an outlier because of higher showings, this does show us far less powerful weapons than those high MTs and low GTs some people argue for ST...

Given the E-E was badly damaged after going back in time the same way the sphere did, and the Borg time ship had barely escaped an exploding cube being damaged to some degree is likely. The Borg had also not planed on the E-E chasing it.

It may well have been a case of the Borg only using just enough boom to get the job done since the plan worked until the E-E followed the sphere.

I'd just say there are to many unknowns to properly quantify the event.

Praeothmin wrote: While similar, the GO24 isn't exactly a BDZ...
This is what Scotty says, in "A Taste of Armageddon":

[quote=" "A Taste of Armageddon""] This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified,
and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes,
the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages

So the most populated centers of tha planet are to be destroyed, which in turn would be catastrophic for any planet.
Imagine 250 Torpedoes, even at 1-2 MT each, fired at the 250 most populous areas on Earth, plus one Phaser shot per Torpedo burst...
The ravages would be terrible, and while human life would not cease, it would have been dealt one hell of a blow, and I am pretty sure almost half would perish...
Civilization as we know it would be devastated, World economy destroyed, firestorms would be ravaging the ecosystems...
BDZ, if I remember correctly, also add "all fisheries, animal and plant life"...
So while it takes more than 1 ship to perform, their objective is much "grander", in a way...
[/quote]
"The entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed"

That sounds like some of the more extreme interpretations of a Base Delta Zero, and while ignoring fisheries it would include all land based plant and animal life.

One can't forget what happened to the planet iOrelious IX, Iota Geminorum IV , or what was attempted in The Die Is Cast. When a Trek power says destroy they can mean what happened to Alderaan.

They could have very well meant there would be nothing above water after the Enterprise was done with the planet. It only took about 19 seconds for the E-D to drill through about 3000 kilometers of planet remember.^_^

I find it utterly hilarious how over the top silly Star Trek can be at times.

Praeothmin wrote: This actually made me think:
There's no way you can refute the existence of anti-grav in SW without first explaining how gravity works?
We think in ST it has to do with particles called "gravitons", but how do they work?
And by that, I am not talking about it's effects (bodies being attracted to one another), but how do they achieve the effects we see in both universes?
Without that explanation, you have no basis for saying "the speeder falls, so it's not anti-gravity"...

There are a lot of unknowns.

Well we have real world models that actual fit well with at least some of what we see in Star Wars that involves things like ioncraft, and some of the description of Star Wars anti-gravity sounds like maglev tech taken to the extreme.

Star Trek's anti-gravity tech is at least partly related to the warp drive which works by warping space/time with gravity.

Praeothmin wrote: Calling someone a Trekkie isn't an insult.
I didn't call you an idiot, an imbecile, or anything like that.
I don't think you are.
I called you a Trekkie for the reasons I gave in my previous posts: I feel you wank ST to much and weaken SW more than you should...
I probably should have said that I "perceived this to be the case", because it comes from my perceptions of your way of debating, but it never was meant as an insult...

I consider calling someone a trekkie or a warsie to be an insult. They aren't something I would call someone I am referring to in a respectful manner as they have to me connotations of irrational behavior/poor mental health, and as I have stated neither Star Wars nor Star Trek make it on my list my favorite series.

Calling someone a trekkie or warsie is not an insult, but a simple declaration of one's party affiliations when concerned with the debate.

Now, calling someone a TrekTard or a WarsFag, on the other hand.......

Lucky wrote:That's like comparing WW-II sensor tech to modern stuff.

If you say so, but since you did not provide evidence that ST sensors are so much superior than SW's, it's just your opinion, and I disagree with it...

All the times that come to mind involve unquantifiable things like the guy being made untraceable with standard sensors..

There's a DS9 episode where Kira is in an old Bajoran shack, looking for an old Bajoran terrorist, who wasn't hiding behind magnetic doors, wasn't genetically engineered to escape notice, and she was tracking him using a Tricorder, and he still surprised her...
And this is more in line with most of the examples I remember...

R2-D2 was at Vulcan

Phasers can be fired out torpedo tubes

Micro meteoroids are the size of baseballs and larger

Yes the visuals in Star Trek are oh so trust worthy. We must trust them above all else

So this will be your excuse everytime we see a miss in ST?
Bad VFX, even though we nver see ships suddenly changing size in the middle of battle, even though these battles do not show us ships firing Phasers out the Torpedo tubes, even though Torpedo effects and Phaser effects do not change from one scene to another?

Then I make the same call for SW.
After all, the MF constantly changes size when comparing the exterior to the interior, and it even grows up to 60-70 meters at one point in TESB, the ISD in ANH fires from its underside where there are no guns, AT-AT are either 20 or 30 meters high depending on TESB or RotJ, etc, etc...

Sorry Lucky, but the VFX excuses for misses in ST is not valid...

Are the misses? How do you know the target just wasn't off screen, or the shot did exactly what it was suppose to?

Look at the battle on youtube, from "Way of the Warrior", and you will see that the misses are indeed misses, because they continue past ships to where there are no ships to target...

Yes ECM is a wonderful thing, but it's to bad Star Wars has nothing like Star Trek sensors systems. Heck it seems like Star Wars is stuck at WW-II ranges and sensor tech...

So does ST smetimes, and in TCW, SW sensors are not so bad either.
In ANH, the DS has no problem detecting the approaching fighters, in TESB, the Rebels have no problems detecting the Imperial fleet outside of the system, and in RotJ, as you yourself has said, thay seemed to be able to target well enough, although it's not perfect either...

They never had trouble hitting their targets in ROTJ. The only thing they couldn't see was if the shield was up or not, and after the trap was sprung we see no sign of problems with sensors.

Targets which were visually visible, and in the case of ISDs, were massive enough to aim for visually...

Sounds like stupidly good ECM to point where even visual sensors can't be trusted, or VFX screw ups.

Since Star Wars targeting sensors tend to be the Mark one eye ball what's your point?

So now ECM in ST is not a bad explanation?

And in ANH, Vader wasn't using his eyeball mark one, neither was Luke...

We don't know what mister oily blob could do. It seems like it had little problems blocking transporters, and warping space and time like when it took Riker inside it's self. It certain was not made out of mundane matter. It was as I recall describes as a psychic or spiritual being made of "evil", it would be right at home as a Sailor Moon big bad.

The only thing we know it could not do was leave the planet under it own power, and we don't know why.

Yet he couldn't deflect the torpedo, or detonate it prematurely...
But I agree, there are so many uncertainties, that there are no reliable firepower figure to be obtained from that episode...

What model of shuttle does not have Nacelles?
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Category:F ... le_classes
Maybe I'm forgetting something, but why does the shuttle need anything more then impulse?
Since when is anti-matter needed to use a warp drive?

The "Skin of Evil" shuttle had Warp Nacelles, meaning a Warp Drive, meaning a Warp Core, albeit a small one...

But obsession is easily quantified, and everything did exactly what was expected. It certainly speaks highly of the power generation capabilities of Warp cores.

Except there exists no other "Obsession" example in ST, making it a very rare outlier...

The At-At's gun set off a chain reaction in TESB.

That's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that it is just as Canon in SW that their weapons have adjustable settings...

Well since you bring up SW:TCW, in the Destroy the Malevolence arc Obi-Won orders full power to the heavy guns, something like two thirds of the guns stop shooting, and the rate of fire isn't really changed.

While the issue may not be the recharge time, there definitely is an energy generation issue then, something that limits how many guns can fire at the same time...
Why do you think 2/3rds of the guns stopped firing?
Because they used all their energy to keep the ROF the same for the guns on maximum...

The truth is I don't like like using just visuals to quantify what a group in a series is capable of since I really don't trust visual effect to be correct 100% of the time.

Neither do I, but what I do though is, if I use visuals and dialogue to evaluate in ST, I must do the same in SW to be an honest debater...

Given the E-E was badly damaged after going back in time the same way the sphere did, and the Borg time ship had barely escaped an exploding cube being damaged to some degree is likely. The Borg had also not planed on the E-E chasing it.

It may well have been a case of the Borg only using just enough boom to get the job done since the plan worked until the E-E followed the sphere.

I'd just say there are to many unknowns to properly quantify the event.

These excuses don't make any sense.
Even if you're damaged, if you can fire torpedoes, you should be able to fire them fully loaded, and if your goal is to utterly destroy an enemy that's been a thorn in your side for so long, you don't just "use enough boom to get the job done", you use all you've got to destroy them, period...
There are no unknowns, there are bad excuses to exclude this incident from the debate, while TOS's "Obsession" is used over and over to show how powerful the Federation is...

There are a lot of unknowns.

Well we have real world models that actual fit well with at least some of what we see in Star Wars that involves things like ioncraft, and some of the description of Star Wars anti-gravity sounds like maglev tech taken to the extreme.

Star Trek's anti-gravity tech is at least partly related to the warp drive which works by warping space/time with gravity.

In other words, you cannot refute SW has anti-gravity...

I consider calling someone a trekkie or a warsie to be an insult.

Ah, well in that case, I apologize if I've insulted you, because, as Airlocke pointed out, to most of the Debaters here, being called a Trekkie or a Warsie mostly shows which side you debate on, and is not an insult at all...

An example that shows SW sensors aren't as bad as some would make them, since in TCW movie, Separatists Sensors are able to detect Anakin, the Hutt, and Ashoka in the Tatooine desert...

So, three distinct life forms on an entire planet... Not too bad I would say...

(Thanks Darkstar, as the info comes from the "No Letters Home" site)

Praeothmin wrote: If you say so, but since you did not provide evidence that ST sensors are so much superior than SW's, it's just your opinion, and I disagree with it...

I'm feeling a bit lazy, so here's a list someone else already made.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWcompare.html#Sensors

Praeothmin wrote: There's a DS9 episode where Kira is in an old Bajoran shack, looking for an old Bajoran terrorist, who wasn't hiding behind magnetic doors, wasn't genetically engineered to escape notice, and she was tracking him using a Tricorder, and he still surprised her...
And this is more in line with most of the examples I remember...

That example sounds like the guy Kira was looking for would have taken steps to hide from sensors, and would know how to hide from sensors, or he wouldn't be old.

Praeothmin wrote: So this will be your excuse everytime we see a miss in ST?
Bad VFX, even though we nver see ships suddenly changing size in the middle of battle, even though these battles do not show us ships firing Phasers out the Torpedo tubes, even though Torpedo effects and Phaser effects do not change from one scene to another?

I'm sorry, but the visual effects teams for Star Trek at time don't seem to have done more then give the script a quick glance. I can't trust an analysis based on visuals only for Star Trek they are that bad, and you handed me a perfect example in Way Of The Warrior.

The Ship to ship combat shown on screen at times has nothing to do with what is happening, or contradicts it.

Praeothmin wrote: Then I make the same call for SW.
After all, the MF constantly changes size when comparing the exterior to the interior, and it even grows up to 60-70 meters at one point in TESB, the ISD in ANH fires from its underside where there are no guns, AT-AT are either 20 or 30 meters high depending on TESB or RotJ, etc, etc...

Sorry Lucky, but the VFX excuses for misses in ST is not valid...

Sadly for you the VFX are just nowhere near as bad, and the scripts, and novelizations that show the same thing are canon.It's not uncommon to have people looking out the bridge windows at the enemy, and for them to be out of range.

Keep in mind that one person was heavily involved in all the Star Wars(G-and T-canon).

Praeothmin wrote: Look at the battle on youtube, from "Way of the Warrior", and you will see that the misses are indeed misses, because they continue past ships to where there are no ships to target...

I suggest you watch the episode yourself. The episode is a mess.. It's almost as if the guys making the visuals didn't read the script.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElK8OJMI2lQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiFy4WEA ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nq7TBAJ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj8ehacJ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5jyRDsJ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD5HD1B0 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQxrX-JbJCQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuFEmku1584&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxz9zpP- ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm8-EARJ ... re=related

Praeothmin wrote: In ANH, the DS has no problem detecting the approaching fighters,

Can we even tell at what range the fighters are detected?

Praeothmin wrote: in TESB, the Rebels have no problems detecting the Imperial fleet outside of the system,

And you can quantify this event.

If we were talking Star Trek we would be talking light years.

Praeothmin wrote: and in RotJ, as you yourself has said, thay seemed to be able to target well enough, although it's not perfect either...

And Targeting is always done with in visual range.

Praeothmin wrote: Targets which were visually visible, and in the case of ISDs, were massive enough to aim for visually...

Something being big and right in front of them doesn't mean they can target it.

Praeothmin wrote: So now ECM in ST is not a bad explanation?

Going by Way of The Warrior VFX, screw ups works just fine for me, but you ignored my other explanation for the pulse weapons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_your_fire
Why use this method in universe is beyond me, but it does have a certain cool factor visually.

Praeothmin wrote: And in ANH, Vader wasn't using his eyeball mark one, neither was Luke...

The Empire does have crappy targeting systems. It's no wonder droids suck.

The targeting system Luke was using was for the torpedos I thought?

Praeothmin wrote: Yet he couldn't deflect the torpedo, or detonate it prematurely...
But I agree, there are so many uncertainties, that there are no reliable firepower figure to be obtained from that episode...

Isn't it implied he caused the shuttle to crash?

The only thing you can do is scale the visuals which are all to often not reliable in Star Trek.

Praeothmin wrote: The "Skin of Evil" shuttle had Warp Nacelles, meaning a Warp Drive, meaning a Warp Core, albeit a small one...

How do you know the shuttle had warp capability? I really don't care what the nacelles look like. Are we ever shown or told that the model of shuttle can go to warp?

Why must there be an anti-matter reactor for warp travel?

Praeothmin wrote: Except there exists no other "Obsession" example in ST, making it a very rare outlier...

Well they never take warp core fuel, and use it as a bomb again. The anti-matter is clearly processed in some way before it is used in the warp core from what I recall from the dialog.

Why they don't use the warp core fuel as a weapon we don't know.

Praeothmin wrote: That's not what I'm saying.
What I'm saying is that it is just as Canon in SW that their weapons have adjustable settings...

Which begs the question: why keep them dialed down so low? It's not like they killed the defenders at Hoth.

I'm not sure there are any other instances of dial a yield?

Praeothmin wrote: While the issue may not be the recharge time, there definitely is an energy generation issue then, something that limits how many guns can fire at the same time...
Why do you think 2/3rds of the guns stopped firing?
Because they used all their energy to keep the ROF the same for the guns on maximum...

Well, the two thirds is kind of a guess since I never bothered to count how many guns were firing. It seemed like the guns on the front two thirds of the ship stopped firing, and only the rear big guns continued to fire at what seemed like the same rate of fire.

What ever the problem is they can't fire their heavy guns at full power while they are also firing their light and medium guns.

Praeothmin wrote: Neither do I, but what I do though is, if I use visuals and dialogue to evaluate in ST, I must do the same in SW to be an honest debater...

The problem with Star Trek is the visuals at time directly contradict what the characters say, and we have no reason to doubt the characters like in Way Of The Warrior. They say target the lead ships, but the visuals show, but the visuals show that to be impossible because the station is in the center of a swarm of ships, and earlier when

With Star Wars we get very little verbal information, but the novelizations and scripts are canon if slightly lower then the movies so we know at least what was intended to be shown. Star Wars is made to be WW-II or earlier by design.

Praeothmin wrote: These excuses don't make any sense.
Even if you're damaged, if you can fire torpedoes, you should be able to fire them fully loaded, and if your goal is to utterly destroy an enemy that's been a thorn in your side for so long, you don't just "use enough boom to get the job done", you use all you've got to destroy them, period...
There are no unknowns, there are bad excuses to exclude this incident from the debate, while TOS's "Obsession" is used over and over to show how powerful the Federation is...

The Borg didn't fire torpedos. They fired some sort of pulse weapon like a disruptor.

The only weapons the E-E had working was torpedos, but I don't recall the Borg getting access to the weapons systems of the E-E.

Your trying to use human logic to explain the Borgs actions which will in the end fail. The only thing we can be certain of is the Borg are only doing a half assed job of trying to assimilate the Earth/UFP.

Praeothmin wrote: In other words, you cannot refute SW has anti-gravity...

Star Wars might have true anti-gravity, but it would be reffered to with the same terms as the maglev and ionocraft to the point that the person on a Star wars street doesn't know what their really talking about.

Most people in the real world would mistake maglev and ionocraft as anti-gravity because they are uneducated on the topic.

Praeothmin wrote: Ah, well in that case, I apologize if I've insulted you, because, as Airlocke pointed out, to most of the Debaters here, being called a Trekkie or a Warsie mostly shows which side you debate on, and is not an insult at all...

Lets just say that when I hear the terms Trekkie and Warsie it brings to mind disturbing images of people who have taken being fans of a series to an unhealthy extreme. Maybe I lurked at Stardestroyer.net for to long.

Praeothmin wrote:An example that shows SW sensors aren't as bad as some would make them, since in TCW movie, Separatists Sensors are able to detect Anakin, the Hutt, and Ashoka in the Tatooine desert...

So, three distinct life forms on an entire planet... Not too bad I would say...

(Thanks Darkstar, as the info comes from the "No Letters Home" site)

The problem is how did they know it was Anakin Skywalker, Ahsoka Tano, and the Hutt? For all we know they just used infrared sensors, and noted that it was most likely them since they would standout like sore thumbs in the cold desert.