Starfleet Jedi

I was lurking at SDN, and noticed that someone here posted about how hyperspace lanes took hundreds of years to put into place; of course it wasn't long before they went into a feeding-frenzy about how an ISD can take over our entire galaxy in nothing flat (Borg and Dominion included) while ignoring the topic entirely, but the obvious fact is that they can't go super-light speed on a whim, but have to have a course plotted in to a specific destination. This indicates that they would need hundreds of years to create space-lanes, and that the hyperdrive-motivators simply take advantage of these.
In comparison, Star Trek's warp-drive is just like normal impulse, but faster.
If Star Wars had subspace-sensors like Trek's, then they could avoid any danger by simply stopping, or going around any star-like object in its path; however clearly they can't, and are simply at the mercy of the lane.
It's the same in combat, as we see that SW ships can't fight at hyper-light speeds, while Trek ships can.
This says bad things about what would happen to Wars ships in the Trek galaxy.

And how they put these lanes in place? At sublight, it would take hundreds of thousands of years, so they obviously had FTL travel, but it was slower than even Voyager's maximum speed, damaged as it seemed to be (900 c).

Picard, Voyager's maximum speed was not it's maximum speed. We know that 1,000 c was just an average, which changed considerably when things like new navigation data was obtained. For example, without an special drives, or spatial anomalies, 5 years was cut from the journey home with just a simple, small adjustment in "Year of Hell, Part 1". Later that same season, in "Hope and Fear", in the real Starfleet message the Admiral says that they have sent all the data available on the Delta Quadrant to cut "a few years" off the trip. They did this likely knowing full and well about the YoH navigation improvement. Much later on, in "Q2", Q gives Janeway a data PADD with navigation data that definitely will shave a few years off as a reward for putting up with his son. So this is not simply straightening the trajectory, but actual localized improvements that can signficantly result in time being cut.

All total, with just those improvements alone, 9-15 years, possibly as high as 20 were shaved off the original 70 year estimate. Given that we have more than ample evidence of ships going in the tens of thousands of c in explored space, even in the low million c range in "The Chase", Voyager with a properly explored route could have been home in weeks or months, maybe a few years tops.
-Mike

I thought about that too, but I think there was statement along lines that "even on maximum warp, we will need 70 years to get home" or something like that. However, best solution is, when I gave it a thought, that, since they were in portion of space that was not precisely charted, they had to chart it while at warp, and that limited their warp speed (you don't want to run into star or black hole).

Problem is, Janeway rarely got Voyager going at Max Warp, usually cruising at Warp 6, and exploring every and any adjacent systems with anything remotely alien (look, this planet has clovers with 100 leaves, let's explore it)...
When they did indeed go at higher Warp, they were going faster: Warp 9.9 in the "37's" I think, which was 4 billion miles per second, or 21 333c...

"Maximum warp" appears never to refer to the actual maximum speed of the vessel, but more to the maximum sustainable speed over a given distance with given information.

Remember way back in "Where No One Has Gone Before?" The Traveler throws the Enterprise-D 2,700,000 light years away, and Geordi comments that it will take 300 years at maximum warp to get home. That's exactly 9000c, less that Tom Paris' statement from "The 37s," and way less than any estimate from "The Chase," but higher than the 1000c Voyager was expected to be able to do.

The E-D max rating was slower than Voyager's, but she was specifically designed for long-range missions, while Voyager was smaller and less self-sufficient.

Then consider the Equinox. Janeway gives the maximum speed of the class as Warp 8, then later states "without his enhanced drive his ship's only capable of Warp 6." HIS ship, not the class as a whole, just the Equinox itself. Again, regardless of the actual maximum rating of the warp drive, no charting=slower maximum speeds.

Thanks. I'll write myself a note down.

Didn't Han's ship go .5 past lightspeed? That can cross the galaxy in a long time, but it won't be making the Kessel Run in 12 par-secs anytime soon. This is also evidence for a small galaxy, since if it's only 10,000 LY across then warp-conduits could enable low-warp speed capable ships to move around rather quickly, and could be built in the history mentioned, since the Republic itself had lasted how long, 1000 years?
In any event, one would imagine that an old and establishd galactic civilization like that would have something more advanced than just flying around from place to place without some organized system.
In "Contact," for example, aliens had a wormhole-transportation sytem that enabled travel around the galaxy, and they simply told Earth how to build a ship capable of accessing it.

The Federation, meanwhile, has only been warp-capable for a few centuries, so they wouldn't have had time. However if they came to the Imperial galaxy with their warp-driven ships capable of 20,000 C, when even the fastest SW ship (i.e. the Falcon) can only do .5 past lightspeed, then I'd hate to think what would happen once they accessed this system, they'd take it over in a matter of days. In "Descent, Pt. I," the Enterprise was able to use a Borg warp-conduit, so logically they should be able to do the same here.

WhosYourData wrote:The Federation, meanwhile, has only been warp-capable for a few centuries, so they wouldn't have had time.

Not quite true. We know that Earth has only been warp-capable for a few centuries, but other Federation members, like Vulcan and Andor have been able to do so considerably longer than that. It's implied in TNG and ST:ENT very strongly that Vulcan was warp-capable thousands of years before, then lost it during the Time of Awakening when the Romulans left Vulcan to strike off on their own, and left the planet a nuked wasteland. A few centuries later, the Vulcans regained warp.

WhosYourData wrote:"Descent, Pt. I," the Enterprise was able to use a Borg warp-conduit, so logically they should be able to do the same here.

Not necessarily. While the E-D was able to access the Borg transwarp conduit, the hyperspace lanes of SW seem to work differently, and may be nothing more than well-charted paths through space. That may work for the Federation starships, if the navigational considerations translate well to warp travel.
-Mike

Cocytus wrote:"Maximum warp" appears never to refer to the actual maximum speed of the vessel, but more to the maximum sustainable speed over a given distance with given information.

Remember way back in "Where No One Has Gone Before?" The Traveler throws the Enterprise-D 2,700,000 light years away, and Geordi comments that it will take 300 years at maximum warp to get home. That's exactly 9000c, less that Tom Paris' statement from "The 37s," and way less than any estimate from "The Chase," but higher than the 1000c Voyager was expected to be able to do.

The E-D max rating was slower than Voyager's, but she was specifically designed for long-range missions, while Voyager was smaller and less self-sufficient.

Then consider the Equinox. Janeway gives the maximum speed of the class as Warp 8, then later states "without his enhanced drive his ship's only capable of Warp 6." HIS ship, not the class as a whole, just the Equinox itself. Again, regardless of the actual maximum rating of the warp drive, no charting=slower maximum speeds.

In DS9, they said it would generally take about 70 years to make the 70,000 trip from Dominion-space in the Gamma-quadrant to Federation-space in the Alpha Quadrant. That's 10,000C; so that pretty well fits with the 9000C figure above, plus any improvements made since to warp-drive and long-range sensors, navigation etc.

That would actually be 1,000 c, not 10,000 c. 70,000/70 years = 1,000. :-)
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:That would actually be 1,000 c, not 10,000 c. 70,000/70 years = 1,000. :-)
-Mike

Then that presents a serious discrepancy, doesn't it? Perhaps Jem H'dar ships are only capable of 1000c over long distances, since they're warships.

Mike DiCenso wrote:

WhosYourData wrote:The Federation, meanwhile, has only been warp-capable for a few centuries, so they wouldn't have had time.

Not quite true. We know that Earth has only been warp-capable for a few centuries, but other Federation members

But they weren't Federation members then, since the Federation exist before Earth formed it in in the 22nd century. Before that, individual pre-members didn't have the resources or organization to build such a network, which would require a large network of civilizations and star-systems, as well as a collective effort; that's why the borg collective was able to build one where others didnt'.

WhosYourData wrote:"Descent, Pt. I," the Enterprise was able to use a Borg warp-conduit, so logically they should be able to do the same here.

While the E-D was able to access the Borg transwarp conduit, the hyperspace lanes of SW seem to work differently, and may be nothing more than well-charted paths through space. That may work for the Federation starships, if the navigational considerations translate well to warp travel.
-Mike

Again, I'd fear to think that such an advanced pan-galactic civiization would have no more organized transport-system than simply improved maps.
And how would the Trade Federation seek to control the lanes, then? Copyright the maps?

WhosYourData wrote: Then that presents a serious discrepancy, doesn't it? Perhaps Jem H'dar ships are only capable of 1000c over long distances, since they're warships.

Or they don't have a well-charted path to the Alpha and Beta quadrants. See my previous posting on Voyager's use of navigational data to shave at least 5-10 years off it's journey that way.

WhosYourData wrote: But they weren't Federation members then, since the Federation exist before Earth formed it in in the 22nd century. Before that, individual pre-members didn't have the resources or organization to build such a network, which would require a large network of civilizations and star-systems, as well as a collective effort; that's why the borg collective was able to build one where others didnt'.

So? The fact that warp drive existed and space was explored and exploited by those members is important. What joining together into the Coalition of Planets, and later the Federation does is allow more freedom of movement amongst the member worlds, and a sharing of technologies and knowledge. Remember that in "Broken Bow" and throughout the rest of ST:ENT that the Vulcan starcharts were absolutely critical to the NX-01's mission.

WhosYourData wrote: Again, I'd fear to think that such an advanced pan-galactic civiization would have no more organized transport-system than simply improved maps.
And how would the Trade Federation seek to control the lanes, then? Copyright the maps?

Maybe. We just don't know how this works. We know that it is possible to mine those lanes and prevent their use. The Federation might be able to do something similar via the cloaked mines seen in DS9, or the gravitic mines first mentioned in "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan".
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

WhosYourData wrote: Then that presents a serious discrepancy, doesn't it? Perhaps Jem H'dar ships are only capable of 1000c over long distances, since they're warships.

Or they don't have a well-charted path to the Alpha and Beta quadrants. See my previous posting on Voyager's use of navigational data to shave at least 5-10 years off it's journey that way.

Yes, but that's all it could expect to save, they weren't getting there in a matter of days. A shortcut can only get so short, before you have to go faster to make a difference. Conduits would make that happen.

WhosYourData wrote: But they weren't Federation members then, since the Federation exist before Earth formed it in in the 22nd century. Before that, individual pre-members didn't have the resources or organization to build such a network, which would require a large network of civilizations and star-systems, as well as a collective effort; that's why the borg collective was able to build one where others didnt'.

So? The fact that warp drive existed and space was explored and exploited by those members is important. What joining together into the Coalition of Planets, and later the Federation does is allow more freedom of movement amongst the member worlds, and a sharing of technologies and knowledge. Remember that in "Broken Bow" and throughout the rest of ST:ENT that the Vulcan starcharts were absolutely critical to the NX-01's mission.

Yes but again Vulcan was still only one planet, it's a matter of organization and resources.

WhosYourData wrote: Again, I'd fear to think that such an advanced pan-galactic civiization would have no more organized transport-system than simply improved maps.
And how would the Trade Federation seek to control the lanes, then? Copyright the maps?

Maybe. We just don't know how this works. We know that it is possible to mine those lanes and prevent their use. The Federation might be able to do something similar via the cloaked mines seen in DS9, or the gravitic mines first mentioned in "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan".
-Mike

DS9 simply surrounded a small wormhole with mines, you can't do that with a route.
Gravitic mines also only apply in the minefield itself. There's no way to mine space, it's just too big; it would have to be a conduit.

There is also this line from TNG "The Price."

When the two Ferengi are stranded on the other side of the Barzan Wormhole (and later found by Voyager in "False Profits") Daimon Goss demands to know where his men are, and Picard tells him to "set his coordinates for the Delta Quandrant. He might run into the in 80 years or so."