Starfleet Jedi

Could Betazoids and Vulcans, despite their mental abilities, be manipulated through use of the dark side of the Force? Palpatine, aka Darth Sidious, was a great manipulator, both with and without the use of the Force. Please give me your respectful, detailed, and organized thoughts.

If they are weak minded, why not, although weak-minded Vulcans may be hard to find...

It is doubtful that any individual from a race with telepathic abilities could be effected as a general rule.

However as we have seen there are stronger more powerful individuals than the norm within those races so it is only reasonable to assume that they have members who are substanttially weaker than the norm.

I still think that a member of a telepathic race with weak abilities would pose a bigger challenge and chance of discovery than a weak minded individual from a non telepathic race.

If you mean in the same way that Hutts and Toydarians are immune to Force mind tricks, the answer is we don't know. Otherwise it is as Kor says, it's how strong-willed the individual is.
-Mike

Well, anything's possible. However, Vulcans are incredibly unlikely given that they're typically trained to have incredible mental endurance. Betazoids on average would be extremly difficult, but I suspect there are more than a handful of Betazoids.

For other races such as Cardassians, Ferengi, and such races are probably going to be alright too. Again, it only works on the weak minded, so most people in most races aren't going to be affected.

Mith wrote:Well, anything's possible. However, Vulcans are incredibly unlikely given that they're typically trained to have incredible mental endurance. Betazoids on average would be extremly difficult, but I suspect there are more than a handful of Betazoids.

For other races such as Cardassians, Ferengi, and such races are probably going to be alright too. Again, it only works on the weak minded, so most people in most races aren't going to be affected.

The fact that Star Trek generally shows high profile people from each race means that you don't get a good sample.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Mith wrote:Well, anything's possible. However, Vulcans are incredibly unlikely given that they're typically trained to have incredible mental endurance. Betazoids on average would be extremly difficult, but I suspect there are more than a handful of Betazoids.

For other races such as Cardassians, Ferengi, and such races are probably going to be alright too. Again, it only works on the weak minded, so most people in most races aren't going to be affected.

The fact that Star Trek generally shows high profile people from each race means that you don't get a good sample.

Force power specifies 'weak minded', suggesting below average. Ie, those who are easy to influence and such or lack self-control. So yes, given this, it is rather hard to get an accurate sample. =(

On average, sans the mentally powerful races, it would probably less effective than in Star Wars, due to the overall better living conditions (ie, better education, better health, overall happiness, ect.), but you'd probably still find plenty of people it'd work against.

You'd find most of them in Quark's Bar though...

Mith wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Mith wrote:Well, anything's possible. However, Vulcans are incredibly unlikely given that they're typically trained to have incredible mental endurance. Betazoids on average would be extremly difficult, but I suspect there are more than a handful of Betazoids.

For other races such as Cardassians, Ferengi, and such races are probably going to be alright too. Again, it only works on the weak minded, so most people in most races aren't going to be affected.

The fact that Star Trek generally shows high profile people from each race means that you don't get a good sample.

Force power specifies 'weak minded', suggesting below average. Ie, those who are easy to influence and such or lack self-control. So yes, given this, it is rather hard to get an accurate sample. =(

On average, sans the mentally powerful races, it would probably less effective than in Star Wars, due to the overall better living conditions (ie, better education, better health, overall happiness, ect.), but you'd probably still find plenty of people it'd work against.

You'd find most of them in Quark's Bar though...

Qui Gon Jinn seemed certain that his Jedi trick would work on a salesman.
He tried it several times, until the other told him that Toydorians aren't affected by those Jedi mind tricks.

That said, yes, weak minded seems to suggest people who just don't have their mental defenses well rounded. It doesn't mean the person doesn't have a good IQ. It means the individual is quite gullible to some extent. Someone who's too much on the defensive, always prudent etc. seems less open to those tricks.

Qui Gon Jinn seemed certain that his Jedi trick would work on a salesman.
He tried it several times, until the other told him that Toydorians aren't affected by those Jedi mind tricks.

That said, yes, weak minded seems to suggest people who just don't have their mental defenses well rounded. It doesn't mean the person doesn't have a good IQ. It means the individual is quite gullible to some extent. Someone who's too much on the defensive, always prudent etc. seems less open to those tricks.

Salesmen have some of the sharpest ways of thinking going although the greed issue is obviously a flaw that can be exploited. I am not supprised the mind trick did not work although the comment leads me to believe it was more about a racial immunity because of the brain structure more than because of a personality type...although personality type and race are sometimes omne and the same thing in SW.

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: Salesmen have some of the sharpest ways of thinking going although the greed issue is obviously a flaw that can be exploited. I am not supprised the mind trick did not work although the comment leads me to believe it was more about a racial immunity because of the brain structure more than because of a personality type...although personality type and race are sometimes omne and the same thing in SW.

Which brings to mind the fact that Betazoids cannot read Ferengi minds because of their genetic makeup, so just as Toydarians may be immune to the Force mind tricks, certain ST races could also be.
And look at who's been fooled by the Jedi mind trick up to now:
-Stormtroopers, some of the dumbest and least diciplined soldiers seen on film;
-A "death-stick" seller, seemingly drunk or drugged up (his eyes weren't too sharp);
-Jabba's servant, not too bright either from what we could see...

Anyone else?

So Betazoids and Vulcans are highly unlikely to be affected? Interesting. What about that ability of the Force in which users of the dark side can take control of the mind and body of anybody?

Only with Cheetos can they be so influenced by the Dark Side, my young Padewan learner.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Only with Cheetos can they be so influenced by the Dark Side, my young Padewan learner.
-Mike

Young Padawan learner? That is so annoying to be refered to that title. It's like I must spend twenty-five years in training to become a Jedi Knight!

Youngla0450 wrote:So Betazoids and Vulcans are highly unlikely to be affected? Interesting. What about that ability of the Force in which users of the dark side can take control of the mind and body of anybody?

Mind and body? They really never showed that much. If you mean manipulation, it could work, but it would require massive amounts of conditioning to work against a Betazoid and it's going to fail outright with 90% of Vulcans. It would also require that the Sith Lord be capable of shielding his mind from a Betazoid...and they read minds about easily as we breath air and they do so without any apparent ethical issues (though it is suggested they can restrain themselves). It's just hard to tell because it's a non-issue with them.

Mith wrote:

Youngla0450 wrote:So Betazoids and Vulcans are highly unlikely to be affected? Interesting. What about that ability of the Force in which users of the dark side can take control of the mind and body of anybody?

Mind and body? They really never showed that much. If you mean manipulation, it could work, but it would require massive amounts of conditioning to work against a Betazoid and it's going to fail outright with 90% of Vulcans. It would also require that the Sith Lord be capable of shielding his mind from a Betazoid...and they read minds about easily as we breath air and they do so without any apparent ethical issues (though it is suggested they can restrain themselves). It's just hard to tell because it's a non-issue with them.

Palpatine shielded his mind against the Jedi, I'm sure he could do it against Betazoids as well.