Starfleet Jedi

Considering the episode "TNG: Half a life" (They try to increase the life of a star by "increasing the Helium fusion rate within its core" using 10 modified photon torpedoes, however they are unable to stabilize it and the effect increases until the sun novas).

Can we then say that the federation has the ability to modify photon torpedoes to cause novas even though that was not their ultimate intention.

Personally i say yes due to the fact the reaction the torps caused "increasing the Helium fusion rate within its core" was not dependant on the sun being low on fuel although considering their ultimate intention (to revive a sun in a habitated system low on fuel) it was just the reason they used a sun low on fuel in the experiment. In fact a sun that was not low on fuel would over heat and explode quicker considering the torpedoes stated effect.


The only argument i have heard that was against it was from some seriously foaming at the mouth warsies who started raving about how if the fed had that tech they would have blown up sun after sun in the dominion war ect ect. I pointed out that firstly their personal opinion on the politics of the federation in regards genocide by making suns go nova was hardly substantive argument, and that even if we did allow observations and personal opinions on politics to be considered in the argument then we would conclude that the federation would not use them.

Other examples of them having the ability to effect suns were shown in DS9 where they successfully relit a dead star and this time actually managed to stabilize it, also admitedly a verbal comment on how a modified torpedo could explode a type 6 proto star in voyager, and obviously Generations (however the torp tech in Generations may or may not be considered lost tech depending on how much info you think data and geordie got while scanning sorins trilithium torpedo).

Let's agree to change your question a little bit.

Instead of asking, if Starfleet has the ability to cause novae, we should only ask, if Starfleet has the ability to cause a for the surrounding star system detrimental, violent explosion of its star through which the star itself may be destroyed or not.

Because a nova is a cataclysmic nuclear explosion caused by the accretion of hydrogen onto the surface of a white dwarf star, which ignites and starts nuclear fusion in a runaway manner. The white dwarf star itself is not destroyed by such a nova. And the term nova is not to be confused with supernova. A supernova is a stellar explosion that is more energetic than a nova and and can be triggered in several ways, which are fundamental different from what happens at a nova. To discuss, if Starfleet has the ability to cause supernovae would necessitate the discuss if it really does so by emulating a natural phenomenon that usually cause a supernova.

But I assume, that this is not really what you want to know. You only want to know, if Starfleet has the ability to cause a for the surrounding star system detrimental, violent explosion of its star through which the star itself may be destroyed or not - and if that ability can be used as a weapon (maybe in a war against an Empire from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away).

Who is like God arbour wrote:Let's agree to change your question a little bit.

Instead of asking, if Starfleet has the ability to cause novae, we should only ask, if Starfleet has the ability to cause a for the surrounding star system detrimental, violent explosion of its star through which the star itself may be destroyed or not.

But I assume, that this is not really what you want to know. You only want to know, if Starfleet has the ability to cause a for the surrounding star system detrimental, violent explosion of its star through which the star itself may be destroyed or not - and if that ability can be used as a weapon (maybe in a war against an Empire from a long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away).

That may or may not be what im asking as you seem to be over complicating what im saying, maybe you should watch TNG: half a life, DS9: Second Sight and decide for yourself what abilities you feel it gives the federation in regards to effecting various types stars.

I would say yes, we can conclusively say the Federation has the means to trigger a supernova, and in fact has several ways. The Federation should certainly have a record of Dr. Timicin's torpedo modifications.

As for Generations, the technology required to cause the effect seen in the film is certainly not lost, I would say. Soran was using Federation solar probes on a Federation observatory when he destroyed the Amargosa star. His second probe appears custom-built but utilized the same technology nonetheless. Now consider: we know from "Starship Mine" that trilithium resin is a byproduct of Federation warp engines. It was what Kelsey and her gang were trying to steal. Note also DS9 "By Inferno's Light," in which the Founder double for Dr. Bashir attempts to ingnite a supernova in the Bajoran sun using a bomb made of "trilithium, tekasite and protomatter." It appears both the Dominion and Soran separately reached the same conclusion as to the most effective method to destroy a star.

The Federation has easy access to the trilithium, which comes in a resin form from their own engines. It was mentioned in "Starship Mine," and used by Captain Sisko to poison Solosos III in "For the Uniform." Protomatter was used in the Genesis Device, Professor Seyetik's experiment from "Second Sight," and was found in a nebula by Voyager in "Mortal Coil." Whatever tekasite is, it wasn't mentioned as being a component of Soran's device, and yet it worked just fine.

So yes, the Federation absolutely has the ability to destroy stars. Whether or not it would ever use it is an entirely different debate.

Edit: And welcome to the board :)

Yeah, I'm not sure that the Feds really want to start exploding stars. It doesn't much jive with their ethic and it would likely cause an arms race, look at the Klingons in STII/IV when they found out about Genesis.

The Federation has a lot of technology that can destroy stars or wreck planets, but as Dude said, their ethics always (well, almost always) keep sthem from using it.
Just look at cloning, the Voyager batman-armor and transphasic torpedoes, etc...

Don't get me started on Voyagers armor-of-physics-be-damned...
I could be here all night!

Ayyway, isn't not blowing up stars and/or planets a good thing? You'd have to be pretty crazy to want to waste such a huge amount of resources. All you'd accomplish is that the other parties start using the same crap on you!

Not blowing up stars and planets is a very good thing.
But that's what we're saying:
The Federation does not have that Tech because they didn't devellop it further, to the point of making weapons, and those they have they wouldn't use, because its against their ethics...

Examples of banned, but still possible technologies are things like the isolytic burst subspace weapons seen in use by the Son'a in ST:Insurrection. Apparently the Second Kitomer accords ban their use. Beyond the Klingons and Federation, it is difficult to say which other Alpha and Beta quadrant powers are held to this treaty as the Son'a either did sign, but secretly kept some for use, or were not signatory to it at all.
-Mike

The Dude wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure that the Feds really want to start exploding stars. It doesn't much jive with their ethic and it would likely cause an arms race, look at the Klingons in STII/IV when they found out about Genesis.

The incidents and immense fallout surrounding the creation and (accidental) use of Genesis might have been what prompted the Romulans to force the Federation to sign to the amended Treaty of Algeron which prohibits the Federation from developing and using cloaking technology. With Romulus destroyed now in the Prime Timeline, and the existance of the Romulan Star Empire in serious question, there is nothing to hold the Federation back from making conventional cloaks and developing phase cloaks.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

The Dude wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure that the Feds really want to start exploding stars. It doesn't much jive with their ethic and it would likely cause an arms race, look at the Klingons in STII/IV when they found out about Genesis.

The incidents and immense fallout surrounding the creation and (accidental) use of Genesis might have been what prompted the Romulans to force the Federation to sign to the amended Treaty of Algeron which prohibits the Federation from developing and using cloaking technology. With Romulus destroyed now in the Prime Timeline, and the existance of the Romulan Star Empire in serious question, there is nothing to hold the Federation back from making conventional cloaks and developing phase cloaks.
-Mike

But there's also no need for the Federation to devellop such items, simply because their worst ally/enemy is no longer a threat...

Well we do know that at least one starfleet captain has no problem using at least one kind of WMD if it serves him and balances a act done by a enemy.

I love this review its very entertaining:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqdFYQDSB5E

Mr worf prepare a high yield torpedo, and write on it "DONT FUCK WITH THE SISKO".......ROFLMAO.

The reviewer also gives a few other good one including my favorite DS9 episode of all time "In the pale moonlight"..

Praeothmin wrote: But there's also no need for the Federation to develop such items, simply because their worst ally/enemy is no longer a threat...

Hardly. The Federation has other very dangerous enemies out there, and having phase cloaks and transphasic torpedoes ready for future dealings with the Borg are now critical. Plus there may be vengful remnants of the Romulan Star Empire who will probably take a similar attitude towards losing Romulus as Nero and his crew did.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

Praeothmin wrote: But there's also no need for the Federation to develop such items, simply because their worst ally/enemy is no longer a threat...

Hardly. The Federation has other very dangerous enemies out there, and having phase cloaks and transphasic torpedoes ready for future dealings with the Borg are now critical. Plus there may be vengful remnants of the Romulan Star Empire who will probably take a similar attitude towards losing Romulus as Nero and his crew did.
-Mike

But then why weren't they develloped during the DW, when they needed them the most?
The cloaks, I can understand, they were still at peace with the Romulans, but the transphasic Torpedoes and Batmobile armor?
They would've helped greatly in that war, yet we didn't see them...
Imagine a Defiant with the armor and Torpedoes...

Praeothmin wrote:But then why weren't they develloped during the DW, when they needed them the most?
The cloaks, I can understand, they were still at peace with the Romulans, but the transphasic Torpedoes and Batmobile armor?
They would've helped greatly in that war, yet we didn't see them...
Imagine a Defiant with the armor and Torpedoes...

Those technologies were brought to Voyager by the future Admiral Janeway, and Voyager did not return to the Alpha Quadrant until the Dominion War was over.

Granted, the technology proved pretty easy to reengineer to fit Voyager (except the incompatible stealth technology) but they were relying on Admiral Janeway's expertise. The alternate timeline they came from also featured a Borg Collective that was both 23 years more advanced and had not had its transwarp network destroyed.

Now, we could well ask why Starfleet engineers back home were not thinking along similar lines, but it can hardly be considered an indictment of Starfleet R&D that they did not come up with technologies 23 years ahead of their time.