Starfleet Jedi

When Sisko and his shipmates arrived from the Defiant 43 soldiers holding communications relay. Most of the 43 soldiers latter be killed in final show down between the Jem'Hadar and the Federation foot soldiers. If the Jem Hadar foot soldiers attract four times with same amount of forces. The Federation would ran out foot soldiers hold Communication relay. I thinking the Federation might have used phaser drills or and some other weapon might have given them long rang.. That they either ran out of or destroy before Sisko and his shipmate arrived

Well, I'll attempt to answer your question the best I can but it's really hard to understand what you've posted.

IIRC the garrison actually started out with 150 men and was down to 43 by the time Sisko stopped by. Traditionally you need three times as many men to take an objective then the folks defending it have. So those 43 should be able to hold off 129, there's a bit of a fudge factor there, no guarantee that having four times the men would result in victory.

Personally I think that if the SF troops had anything like phaser drills they would have used them to create some better defences, so they wouldn't be hiding behind rocks.

First we most remember that they would have to take over the communications relay. This alone could have come at very heavy cost. You said yourself that "Traditionally you need three times as many men to take an objective then the folks defending it have. The Jem Hadar foot soldiers would most likely be in heavy numbers to defend it. With way they breed them. there be no reason they would be in heavy numbers to defand that communications relay. Special because it is such an important piece of equipment. I think the Federation force would have face heavy lose try to take it with just 150 men. That were out of rang attack becomes important. If the Federation foot soldiers could have weapons hit Jem Hadar foot soldiers out of range enemy fire. It would explain how they would be able to take that communications relay station. This would also explain why those mines cause them so many deaths. They very could have lost a good number of phaser drills will trying to taking that communication relay station. Possible that they also lost rest a phaser drill of them while defending that communication relay station before Sisko came.

Jasonb wrote:First we most remember that they would have to take over the communications relay. This alone could have come at very heavy cost. You said yourself that "Traditionally you need three times as many men to take an objective then the folks defending it have. The Jem Hadar foot soldiers would most likely be in heavy numbers to defend it. With way they breed them. there be no reason they would be in heavy numbers to defand that communications relay. Special because it is such an important piece of equipment. I think the Federation force would have face heavy lose try to take it with just 150 men. That were out of rang attack becomes important. If the Federation foot soldiers could have weapons hit Jem Hadar foot soldiers out of range enemy fire. It would explain how they would be able to take that communications relay station. This would also explain why those mines cause them so many deaths. They very could have lost a good number of phaser drills will trying to taking that communication relay station. Possible that they also lost rest a phaser drill of them while defending that communication relay station before Sisko came.

OK, now you've lost me entirely. I'm sorry but I cannot understand what you've posted.

From what I gather, you're of the opinion that the 150 who were garrisoning the comm relay were also the ones who initially captured it. This is, to my knowledge, not supported by the episode.

Second, a military long-range phaser device is not properly called a phaser drill. Indeed, that gets to the point of being annoying. We've seen specialized phaser emitters used for drilling in Voyager and elsewhere, but there's no reason to assume use by any party in AR-558.

Third, there is no evidence of long-range weaponry in use on the surface.

A. Both sides were jamming one another into oblivion, rendering sensors ineffective.
B. Although there were mountains to the east and west, there is no evidence I'm aware of for good firing position from those for any long-range line-of-sight weapon. The terrain of the planet was so rough, you'll recall, that craggy rock features stood like tree trunks just ahead of the entrance to the comm relay.
C. Both sides wanted the comm array, so if you don't have sensors with which to see what you're hitting or even get a decent guess, then it is quite possible that an artillery-based weapon could end up destroying the relay, defeating the purpose for both sides.

2046 wrote: C. Both sides wanted the comm array, so if you don't have sensors with which to see what you're hitting or even get a decent guess, then it is quite possible that an artillery-based weapon could end up destroying the relay, defeating the purpose for both sides.

There is no reason why the Feds couldn't have used artillery based at the relay though, apparently there is only one route in, so you could just drop a round right into the pass. Actually that brings to mind the question of why they never tried to just block it up by bringing down the sides.

The Dude wrote:There is no reason why the Feds couldn't have used artillery based at the relay though, apparently there is only one route in, so you could just drop a round right into the pass. Actually that brings to mind the question of why they never tried to just block it up by bringing down the sides.

1. The Federation troop remnants were the ones least likely to have artillery. They were undermanned and undersupplied in an area where Starfleet was stretched thin.

Even if we assume they ought to have had artillery when the garrison began, a reduction below 1/3rd strength via combat et cetera over however long they were there plus the Houdini mining could quite easily be indicators of a destroyed, disabled, or simply out-of-ammo artillery weapon.

2. There is no indication of straight sides to the pass. We never see the ravine in question. All we do see is a spot near the Jem'Hadar camp.

Not only that, but the Federation could have also used up the remaining artillery to ward off previous assaults on the compound. They had been reduced to a third of their former strength by continuous attempts by the Dominion to retake the compound. They could have either expended all of the remaining artillery weapons, as well as any heavy weapons that they had brought with them, or the Dominion could have destroyed such weapons during one of the assaults.

That's not what I am saying, Robert claimed that artillery could not be used by either side because it could damage the rely. Which is simply incorrect, there is no reason why the side holding the rely could not use it. If they possessed it.

Now brining down the sides of the pas is easily doable with what they have; phasers which in INS we see blow the inside of a cave wall up and out. The sides of a ravine or pass do not have to be vertical either to do it. We routinely demolish the sides of such things today.

They could also have left the opening there so they knew where the Jem Hadar would most likely strike from.

This is similar in idea to how local law enforcement sometimes lets areas of organised crime exist without interfering too much since taking it down would push the known stuff underground where you might not be able to find it anymore (even though they would have the means to do so, it's not always in their advantage).

Or perhaps they needed the pass themselves for some reason not named in the episode.

The point being that the existance of that pass per se does not prove either bad tactics or lack of artillery capability.

The Dude wrote:That's not what I am saying, Robert claimed that artillery could not be used by either side because it could damage the rely. Which is simply incorrect, there is no reason why the side holding the rely could not use it. If they possessed it.

You're taking my words out of context. Don't do that . . . I hate that.

Obviously, those firing out and away from the array could theoretically use ballistic artillery, if they had it, and if they had any clue where to shoot.

The opening post had to do with the use of long-range weaponry being used to initially capture AR-558, and thus my reply is on the same topic.

Thus, the point I was originally making was in regards to attacking the compound. Of my point "Third {...}", subpoint A could go both ways, depending on how you read it, but B and C (the latter being the one you're on about) both clearly have to do with firing on the array compound.

I hope that's cleared up for you now.

2046 wrote:

The Dude wrote:That's not what I am saying, Robert claimed that artillery could not be used by either side because it could damage the rely. Which is simply incorrect, there is no reason why the side holding the rely could not use it. If they possessed it.

You're taking my words out of context. Don't do that . . . I hate that.

Obviously, those firing out and away from the array could theoretically use ballistic artillery, if they had it, and if they had any clue where to shoot.

The opening post had to do with the use of long-range weaponry being used to initially capture AR-558, and thus my reply is on the same topic.

Thus, the point I was originally making was in regards to attacking the compound. Of my point "Third {...}", subpoint A could go both ways, depending on how you read it, but B and C (the latter being the one you're on about) both clearly have to do with firing on the array compound.

I hope that's cleared up for you now.

Perhaps you should be a little more clear the next time Robert but yes, all cleared up now. *insert smiley face*

Remember binoculars they used got better view Jem Hadar camp. With that piece equipment they used photon grenades or other artillery. On low setting would not threat rely station at all. Talk about using them in TNG: "Legacy"). Said setting low setting to stun them rather then kill them. So they could have been used to help talk rely station. With out risk of damage it.

All they had was line of sight, and by the time they had it they were within firing range of a patrol. That is competance on the part of the Jem'Hadar.

Second, the comm array had a cave entrance, so how do you expect to wipe out adversaries who are holding the comm array via flash-bangs, which is basically the setting of photon grenade you're aiming for? Sure, you can turn it up a few notches, but then you risk damage to the prize.

Your persistence on the issue simply makes as little sense as many of your sentences.