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The purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 5:43 am
by Who is like God arbour
  • What's the purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation and has Kirk cheated changing the parameters of the test to make winning possible?

    What does his deed say about his character and his ability to be a commanding officer?

addition:
  • What would you do, if you would be the acting captain in that simulation?

    You are on training mission to Gamma Hydra. Sector 14, coordinates 22/87/4. Approaching Neutral Zone, all systems functioning. Suddenly you are receiving a difficult to understand distress signal: »Mayday, mayday. Kobayashi Maru, twelve parsecs out of Altair VI ... gravitic mine, lost all power. Environmental controls ... hull broached, many casualties ...«

    You are answering the signal: »This is U.S.S. Enterprise, your message is breaking up. Give your coordinates. Repeat: Give your coordinates. Do you copy?«

    The answer: »Copy, Enterprise. Sector ten ...« - The Neutral Zone - »Mayday, Enterprise, we’re losing our air, can you help? Sector ten ...«

    You can't scan the sector from your position due to high concentrations of interstellar dust and gases in that sector and ionization causing sensor interference.

    You are asking for the data of the Kobayashi Maru. The computer answers: »Kobayashi Maru, third class neutronic fuel carrier, crew of eighty-one, three hundred passengers.«
    • And now you have to decide ...

Re: The purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:03 am
by PunkMaister
Who is like God arbour wrote:
  • What's the purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation and has Kirk cheated changing the parameters of the test to make winning possible?

    What does his deed say about his character and his ability to be a commanding officer?
On what grounds are you asking this question? I do have to ask because you now seem to have an agenda.

If we go by canon we know that the fed teachers thought it was creative on his part but also as a result off course he never faced the possibility of losing or even dying which he ended up very well confronting in the Wrath of Khan.

Re: The purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 12:48 pm
by sonofccn
Who is like God arbour wrote:
  • What's the purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation and has Kirk cheated changing the parameters of the test to make winning possible?

    What does his deed say about his character and his ability to be a commanding officer?
The purpose? To imprint onto command officers that there are no win scenarios. Possibly to curb recklessness or feelings of superiority.

As for what this means regarding Kirk there are two equally valid answers.

1. Kirk is a brilliant unorthodox officer who will think outside the box for any problem and will not accept defeat.

2. Kirk is an arrogant officer who believes he knows everything and refuses to accept the possibility that sometimes you can't save your hull and crew.

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 1:17 pm
by Praeothmin
sonofccn, I think both are valid:

Kirk is a brilliant unorthodox officer (who sometimes appears arrogant) who will think outside the box for any problem (because he's sure he knows something the others don't) and will not accept defeat because he simply refuses to accept the possibility that sometimes you can't save your hull and crew...

:)

Re: The purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:19 pm
by GStone
PunkMaister wrote:On what grounds are you asking this question? I do have to ask because you now seem to have an agenda.
You're paranoid.

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 4:55 pm
by sonofccn
Praeothmin wrote:sonofccn, I think both are valid:

Kirk is a brilliant unorthodox officer (who sometimes appears arrogant) who will think outside the box for any problem (because he's sure he knows something the others don't) and will not accept defeat because he simply refuses to accept the possibility that sometimes you can't save your hull and crew...

:)
True, true. I was thinking more along the lines that the answer told you more about the person responding then it did about Kirk. :-)

Re: The purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation?

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 7:30 pm
by PunkMaister
GStone wrote:
PunkMaister wrote:On what grounds are you asking this question? I do have to ask because you now seem to have an agenda.
You're paranoid.
Bit reasonably so, I just want to make sure this is not some sort of disguised political thread or something of that nature...

Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:17 pm
by Jedi Master Spock
We've known for quite some time that Kirk cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test. It's really more of a psychological evaluation than an academic exercise. We saw a similar high-stress psych test in Wesley's entrance exam, too.

I think Kirk was aware that it wasn't really considered a test of his tactical abilities. It's an interesting look into Kirk's personality.

Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:16 am
by Mike DiCenso
Your theory would seem to match up with Spock's explanation to Kirk during the hearing about the test being about making the cadets experiance fear.
-Mike

Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 7:40 am
by Who is like God arbour
I have hoped to provoke a little bit more energetic reaction to that question. On SDN, that topic is very controversially debated:
Anguirus wrote:I think one of the unfortunate things lost in the streamlining of the story is just what a whiz kid Kirk is. I believe the authors have said that the intent is that he is one of the very top seniors at the Academy...despite only being there for three years. Assuming that all of the command-track personnel on Enterprise are breveted cadets, he is at least an adequate candidate for first officer.
  • Darth Wrong wrote:If he's such a genius cadet, why does he appear to be ignorant of the regulations concerning cheating on Academy tests? One does not get the impression that he expected to face any consequences.

    The Kobayashi Maru has always been difficult to rationalize, but to say the movie did a poor job of it is understatement. He was about to get run out of town on a rail but got saved by the bell. It's funny, but also stupid.
    • The Romulan Republic wrote:I've only seen the film once, but I thought McCoy said he would probably be let off? Now maybe McCoy was just trying to reassure Kirk, but it seemed like any discipline he received would probably be minor, not "run out of town on a rail." He was after all a decent student, and he'd already taken the test fair and square (twice), hence fulling the requirements for graduation as for as the Kobayashi Maru was concerned. His "cheating" seemed more like a prank than actually failing the requirements for graduation.

      At least, that's the impression I have based on the film. So in short, he might very well have expected to get off (helps that he's rather arrogant too). I don't think he was unaware of regulations, he just chose to ignore them (Spock refers to Kirk's tendencies in this respect near the end of the film of course, with regard to Kirk's plan being against regulations).
      Gandalf wrote:Perhaps he knew that the scenario couldn't be beaten conventionally, so he thought it necessary to beat it by attacking its validity in a courtroom setting.
      Anguirus wrote:I think the hearing was going to go Kirk's way. McCoy seemed to think so, and as per Star Trek II, a similar incident in the OTL got Kirk a commendation. I think that Kirk had a good idea that this would lead to a positive result...he didn't strike me as the type to torpedo his whole career just to make an inane point.

      Note that Kirk also seems to have an encyclopedic knowledge of Starfleet regulations as per the Delta Vega scene (citing the exact one that Spock violated). He also didn't throw a fit when he was grounded...the questionable way by which he gained access to the Enterprise was pretty much all McCoy's doing.
      • Stark wrote:Explain how. Until much later in the movie Kirk is depicted as pretty much a complete moron. McCoy saying shit doesn't mean shit, and he was getting heavily dressed down - even if he WASN'T expelled, they're not going to forget that and it'd probably hurt his career. Oops, no. lol!
        • Bounty wrote:Not by the Academy as part of a standard procedure, but by Spock filing a personal accusation. Seems like he was the only one to actually take offence at Kirk's actions; remember, the officer actually overseeing the test didn't file the complaint, it was the guy who wrote the software.

          As said before, Kirk had taken the test legitimately twice before, he cheated in a way that was blatantly obvious to anyone monitoring, and completing the test successfully isn't even a requirement to graduate. He pulled something on the level of a prank, and if it wasn't for Spock having a massive stick up his ass about his unfair test he would've gotten away with it. Once the accusation was filed the Academy couldn't ignore it, hence the "we'll look into it, you're suspended".
          • Stark wrote:LOL. The test is so 'unfair' Starfleet is happy with it, allows people to resit it, and has used it for years. Cheating is cheating, bucko, and since it's just used as part of the frankly juvenile CHEATING IS GOOD, do DUMB SHIT that through DUMB LUCK works = YOU A GENIUS bullshit it's stupid. It's pretty funny that Spock was being a cunt because the test admin laughed at his 'unbeatable test' being defeated by probably illegal tampering by a retard with the emotional age of 7.

            I'm still curious as to how anyone watching the movie can describe to me how Kirk is a good officer beyond 'cheats' and 'is saved by plot'. He's a jackass reckless moron who can't deal with failure charged with informed attributes.
            • open_sketchbook wrote:I think that's besides the point. In the Prime Universe, Kirk got a commendation from his clever solution to the test, showing his ability to think outside the box and a drive to succeed. In this universe, for all we know he was lined up for said commendation (certainly nobody seemed angry with him) until a certain arrogant "green-blooded hobgoblin" decided to put him through the ringer for beating his "perfect test".

              Honestly, I think they got Kirk's personality and actions down pretty good to the original character. Kirk has always "cheated", Coromite Maneuver, Vulcan Death Grip, etc. It's a basic part of his character and the thing that made him a successful officer that he took solutions that, while not always logical as Spock would point out, were usually the correct action, and I think that analyzing his actions without remembering that runs counter to what Kirk is supposed to represent as a character.
              Bounty wrote:Kirk's defence to being accused if cheating is admit that he cheated and pointing out that the test is rigged anyway. He didn't cheat because he didn't have the goods to pass the test, he cheated because the test cannot be passed, which he has a philosophical problem with, and he exposed that in an admittedly juvenile way. In the original universe, that got him a commendation (and was pretty much what Pike is after: someone who knows when to follow a rule and when not to if the situation calls for it). This is, in case you missed it, a theme of the movie that was explicitly explained.
              • Darth Wrong wrote:
                Bounty wrote:Kirk's defence to being accused if cheating is admit that he cheated and pointing out that the test is rigged anyway.
                The test is incredibly stupid. However, "no cheating" rules do not make an exception for badly written tests in any academic institution I have ever heard of anywhere.
                Bounty wrote:He didn't cheat because he didn't have the goods to pass the test, he cheated because the test cannot be passed, which he has a philosophical problem with, and he exposed that in an admittedly juvenile way. In the original universe, that got him a commendation (and was pretty much what Pike is after: someone who knows when to follow a rule and when not to if the situation calls for it). This is, in case you missed it, a theme of the movie that was explicitly explained.
                Except that he didn't know when to follow a rule and when not to. He risked sanction, suspension, and even potentially expulsion or career damage over something that didn't actually matter or have any significant value, and which was important chiefly because of his personal pride. How the fuck is that an example of knowing when to follow a rule and when not to? It's more an example of shitty risk/reward assessment skills.
            Darth Wrong wrote:Sorry, but if someone is suspended, that pretty much proves that it is taken seriously. The fact that someone lodges a complaint does not turn a trivial incident into an important one.
            • Bounty wrote:I agree with that. I'm just not convinced that the academy would have taken action without Spock's complaint. If the default response of the academy would have been to start procedures against Kirk, wouldn't you expect the complaint to be filed by the officer administering the test? There were two of them present, presumably actual instructors for that particular course, yet it's Spock who lodges the actual complaint - and he's part of the test as a programmer.

              Once the complaint of cheating was made it only makes sense for Kirk to get suspended, it's pretty much the worst academic offence Kirk could commit. But considering the outcome in the regular universe (with, presumably, the same test and same cheat) and the person who lodged the actual complaint, I think it was only because of Spock getting personally offended that the matter even became a disciplinary meeting.
              • Darth Wrong wrote:So? If somebody cheats on an assignment in a modern university, the professor has to lodge a complaint about the student in order to start proceedings there too. It doesn't happen automatically.
                • Anguirus wrote:Was Kirk actually suspended from the Academy, or just taken off the "cadets we are instantly making line officers" list? I don't recall it being explicitly stated, but these are rather different outcomes.
                  Kane Starkiller wrote:The thing that bugged me with this depiction of Kobayashi Maru is how straightforward Kirk's cheat was. I always imagined he found some clever exploit in the simulation similar how in current games certain actions can leave you with infinite ammo without you actually using cheats.
                  The way it was shown here Kirk might as well reprogrammed the test to display "Kirk wins! He is the smartest man in the universe!" right at the start.
                  • Kane Starkiller wrote:That's nothing like how Kirk described it in Star Trek II.
                    • Kane Starkiller wrote:Yes yes but I still imagined it was something more creative like changing some seemingly unimportant and accessible parameters like the color of the ship to some unlikely value which caused an array overflow which...well you get the idea.
                      What Kirk had done in this film doesn't remotely deserve a commendation for original thinking he described in ST2.
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                      Anguirus wrote:Why not? If no one had done it before, and there were no explicit rules against it (though I imagine they were passed afterward)...

                      What I was hoping to hear in the movie but didn't would be something from Kirk, "A starship captain doesn't follow rules to protect his crew." What I did get from the movie is that they were trying to decide whether what Kirk did would be considered cheating.
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                      Darth Wrong wrote:In the original film he said "I reprogrammed it so it was possible to win the test". But that didn't really prepare us for the sheer level of brazenness he demonstrated in the new movie.
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                      Bounty wrote:Yeah, I would've liked seeing something more subtle. "Reprogramming the conditions" always sounded to me like he tweaked the odds in his favour, not just built in an "I win" buttin.
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                      Kamakazie Sith wrote:I agree. It would have been more impressive had he actually just re-programmed the test so it was possible to rescue the ship (like he stated in WOK). He could have then shown us that he was a capable starship captain by destroying those Klingon cruisers without making them possible to kill with a one shot.
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                      Darth Wrong wrote:It's entirely possible that he could have won the scenario by simply making it fair. Instead, he made it grossly unfair the other way, and then basically rubbed his supervisors' noses in it with his behaviour.

                      That would have bolstered his defense if they figured out what happened before he was assigned. He could have argued that he found unrealistic elements in the simulation and corrected them.
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                      Kamakazie Sith wrote:It seems like they were trying to add comedy to that scene, but failed to realize that the KM scenario was one of Kirks' defining moments as a great starship captain. Certainly one of the failings of this movie. However, I still think this movie is a huge step in the right direction. Now, they just need to refine their methods and become more familiar with Star Trek.
                Atlan wrote:I know I'm late to this, but...

                To me, the whole thing was a prank. Kirk was playing a practical joke. The very moment the scenario begins it's obvious he's not at all taking it serious, and there is no way in HELL he would have thought that he'd get away with it. I mean, not only was the cheat blatant in effect, the tests computers even glitched most heinously for a second or so before Kirk kicked the Klingon's behinds. He never had any intention of this being taken seriously. If he had, he would not have been so obvious about it. All he did was pull everyone's leg. Not just the examinators, but also the people in there with him.

                Now he certainly did cheat, but only someone with a stick up his behind couldn't see that Kirk was having a laugh. But once Spock lodged a formal complaint, the academy had no choise but to act upon it, and follow rules. Presumably these include suspension until the whole thing is over.
                It's quite likely that if the proceedings had not been interrupted, Kirk would have pointed all of this out, and have given Spock a hard time about not being able to spot an obvious joke.

                It's disappointing compared to him being a really smart guy and subtly circumventing the test, but all the same I had a good laugh at the scene, which presumably is what JJ was going for.
                • Stark wrote:I don't find military training a good scenario for having a laugh. He retook the tests because he's pathologically unable to deal with failure, then he broke the simulation to be a big man, and he thought he'd get away with it. Unable to learn + character flaw + damaging academy property = promotion? :)

                  Clearly, the best candidate for starship commander! I think it's sad that people honestly think his conduct is acceptable, even in a university let alone a military training facility, let alone for someone who's supposed to be a genius with COMMAND APDITUDE.

                  That said, this is clearly the fratboy attitude Abrams expected from his audience, the ROFFLE GOOD JOKE KIRK response. If only those squares at the Academy would loosen up and learn how to really jive!
                  • Atlan wrote:
                    Stark wrote:I don't find military training a good scenario for having a laugh. He retook the tests because he's pathologically unable to deal with failure, then he broke the simulation to be a big man, and he thought he'd get away with it. Unable to learn + character flaw + damaging academy property = promotion?
                    I'm sorry, did we see the same movie?
                    I just pointed out that there was no way at all that he'd get away with doing what he did, and that it didn't look as if he'd even tried. If there is a character flaw here it's that he thinks that he can use university property for practical jokes, not that he is ZOMG! Unable to deal with FAILURE!
                    Stark wrote:Clearly, the best candidate for starship commander! I think it's sad that people honestly think his conduct is acceptable, even in a university let alone a military training facility, let alone for someone who's supposed to be a genius with COMMAND APDITUDE.

                    That said, this is clearly the fratboy attitude Abrams expected from his audience, the ROFFLE GOOD JOKE KIRK response. If only those squares at the Academy would loosen up and learn how to really jive!
                    Yeah, this explanation of yours would work if it wasn't so obvious that all he did was have a laugh. He WASN'T trying to win. For all we know he did excellently in his first two tests.
                    Now before you blow a fuse, I'm NOT saying that what he did was right. He certainly should have recieved some kind of punishment. Uni and/or Military Academy is not the place to joke around, and certainly not with the machinery of an official test.
                    But you're basically being Spock here, all officious and ramrod straight, "how DARE kirk cheat to win, he should be EXPELLED!", while it is obvious that winning was not what he was going for. If he had cheated like this and gone for winning as the end goal, then he should have been kicked out, no question. But you cannot possibly look at that scene and conclude that he was being serious about it.
                  Darth Wrong wrote:Since when does "I'm just having a laugh" constitute a valid justification for:

                  A) Breaking and entering into a government computer system
                  B) E-Vandalism
                  C) Wasting simulator time and the time of more than a dozen people for what is essentially a personal prank

                  Please explain this to me, jackass.
                  • Atlan wrote:I never said that it is a valid justification for the above.

                    I pointed out that the accusation of academic cheating is unjust.
                    • Darth Wrong wrote:So if you cheat but you make a big joke out of it all, then you're not cheating? Precisely what definition of "cheating" do you use?
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                      Bounty wrote:He never had the intent to pass the test for any sort of academic credit?

                      Since he made his cheating so blatantly *obvious* it seems extremely unlikely he thought he'd get away with it, and if he knew he wasn't going to do this unnoticed he did it because he wanted attention drawn to the test being unwinnable. So yes, he "cheated", but not with the intent of getting any sort of personal gain out of it.

                      If he'd sabotaged a compulsory test and tried to cover his tracks; yes, that would have been ground for severe disciplinary action. And he should still be in trouble for hacking the simulator. But as a formal charge, I doubt cheating would have stood up very long.

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                      Atlan wrote:The Joys of living in another time zone...

                      Thank you Bounty, for making my position abundantly clear.

                      It didn't, to me, look as if Kirk was trying to get academic credit out of this. All it is to him is a joke or a way of calling attention to the KM test. It can easily be argued that it was a bad/inappropriate joke, and it can certainly point to a lack of responsibility to do something like this with SF Academy equipment and manpower, but as Bounty points out, academic cheating it wasn't.
                      Havok wrote:To add to that, how can you cheat on a test that there is effectively now way to pass? I think we can all agree the test isn't even a pass or fail situation, but an evaluation of reactions and behaviors. That being said, it is reasonable to assume that the information Starfleet wanted about Kirk was gained from his first pass on the KM, and possibly even the second. It is also reasonable to assume that they were just humoring Kirk by letting him take the test a third time, since clearly the cadets know there is no way to pass it, and the instructors as well as the cadets (Uhurah) were just going through the motions and obviously expected the same out come that every other cadet ever, had gotten.

                      It seems pretty clear that Kirk was attacking the test itself and the ideas behind it and not trying to score points or get better grades.
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                      Darth Wrong wrote:What the fuck kind of lame argument is this? The test is unimportant, so it's not cheating when you cheat at it? That's not how cheating is defined, kiddies. And quite frankly, I think the only reason you're focusing on this made-up narrow definition of "academic cheating" is because you're desperate to find some way to blunt the charges against his character. Otherwise it comes off as pure nitpicking.
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                      Knife wrote:I'm not so sure. In lots of vocations, there are 'checks in a box' you have to have that is not necessary dependent on how you do on that box. You can fail miserably at doing CPR on a dummie as long as you can recite 30:2 on chest compressions to breaths. You still get the card and nobody knows how you'll do with real CPR untill you jump ontop of your first dying body and do so. You still get the card and the card is all a lot of places want for employment or whatever.
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                      Darth Wrong wrote:I don't see what lax requirements like that have to do with the notion that something which is obviously considered cheating by the Academy is somehow not cheating because it was voluntary and he was "just kidding". Hell, Kirk himself didn't even deny that it was cheating; he simply tried to pull a Tu Quoque fallacy on Spock.
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                      Stark wrote:Indeed, the whole sequence is played as 'renegade vs constricting rules', where Kirk is a hero for not just going along through the soulless machinery of education and that's why he's the best captain ever. I really struggle to see any deep thought or agenda behind his actions, even in the suspension scene. It's possible to give him all these motivations, but I'm not sure how much of that is in the movie and how much is in the minds of TOS fans.

                      And regardless his conduct was retarded anyway; but the point of the academy sequence seems to be 'rules r bad mang'.
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                      DaveJB wrote:The movie should have driven home the point that reality doesn't resemble either Spock's "DIE DIE DIE" scenario, nor Kirk's "Rock 'Em Sock 'Em" reprogramming of the test. In real life you can achieve a victory against the odds, but still encounter situations where you can't truly achieve victory, as evidenced by the Kelvin's crew escaping albeit at the cost of Kirk Sr's life, and the Enterprise stopping Nero, but not before Vulcan and 99.9% of its population got swallowed up by a black hole.

                      (Plus there's the fact that TWOK and TSFS had already built their premises on showing that there were scenarios you couldn't truly win at, but hey...)
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                      Stark wrote:Well the stupidity is even highlighted in ST, where Kirk's must-win mentality prompted him into conflict on the bridge because he wanted to commit suicide getting killed by Nero. Turns out no-win scenarios are actually pretty common.
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                      Darth Wrong wrote:I've written before on TOS Kirk's massively overrated tactical prowess. I grind my teeth whenever some idiot refers to him as a "tactical God" or some other such worshipful nonsense. When he says "I don't believe in the no-win scenario" I can only interpret this as proof that he has studied zero military history. Every strategic retreat in history has been prompted by a commander who realized he was facing a no-win scenario.

                      Of course, there have been officers in real-life who had Kirk's attitude toward the no-win scenario. General Custer comes to mind.
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                      Stark wrote:Well that's Patrick's point I think - in TWOK, it was MEANT to be pompous, character-flaw stuff and was exposed as such. There's a diference between being positive, dynamic and aggressive and just being black-and-white dog-with-a-bone tunnel-vision madness, and that's what Kirk learnt.

                      It's just 20 years of nerds missed the point.
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                      Knife wrote:Fair enough, but I really call the bullshit flag on how academic the test was rather than an institutional trial. Should there have been a sanction? Sure. Not like cheating on your math test though.
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                      Darth Wrong wrote:You know, there is one way to salvage the Kobayashi Maru as a starship captain's test, and that's to make it a test of the starship captain's discretion. A good captain will accept that he can't win, and choose to save the lives of his crew. The test could be designed so that you lose marks for failing to rescue the transport, but you lose more marks for failing to rescue the transport and getting yourself killed. The lesson to be learned is that you can't win every scenario, but you can minimize your losses.

                      Unfortunately, Spock decided it was about "fear", which is utterly idiotic.

                      PS. Mind you, they totally undercut this by using the same name for the simulation over a 20 year period, so that everyone knows it's a no-win scenario. It would work far better as a scenario that they just spring on you during one of many simulations, most of which are normal winnable scenarios.
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I have not quoted SDN to complain about them but because I have found their debate very interesting. I hope, that some of these quotes may be an inspiration for you.

Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 7:22 pm
by PunkMaister
Ah so you do have an agenda after all Wilga :)

Posted: Sat May 30, 2009 10:53 pm
by Jedi Master Spock
Well, it really goes back to the question of why Starfleet Academy gives the test. The reason why there was so much discussion of it on SDN is that Wong has a lot of difficulty with the idea that the "test" is, in fact, a psychological evaluation rather than an academic one. That, and he is looking for opportunities to gripe about the new ST movie and Captain Kirk.

I agree with the complaint that Kirk's cheat was surprisingly unsubtle, but in retrospect, it's Kirk. Kirk does brazenly outrageous things from time to time, and it's not terribly surprising that he was less gracious as a younger man. (It may not even be the same cheat he applied in the main timeline, but that's another story).

Kirk's "never say die" mentality is a classic heroic attitude. He's what we might call Chaotic Good in D&D terms - perhaps a lying, cheating bastard, but a lying cheating bastard who does good. Once you realize the Kobayashi Maru test is another psychological test, and that Kirk seems to have realized that, there isn't all that much to gripe about. It does illustrate one of his greatest character flaws - which, as we have seen, is also a great strength.

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:01 am
by Who is like God arbour
Who says that the main purpose of that simulation is to test a cadet? Could it be possible that the main purpose is training; that the cadets are supposed to learn to do their job even in a hopeless situation?

Yes, one could object, that such a simulation does not really creates the hopelessness, a real situation would create, because the cadets are knowing that they won't die in a simulation. But such objection does miss the purpose of drill. Usually in training, there is never a real danger for life. And when there is a real danger for life, one is supposed to do what one has learned in training. And if the training was good, one does not even start to think about the dangers but reacts intuitive.

If the simulation is indeed a no-win simulation, that could mean, that not the choice, the acting captain is making, is relevant (as long as it is not totally unjustifiable) but if he or she keeps cool, gives clear and reasonable orders and reacts accordingly to the standing operation procedures. If he or she is not able to learn to do it in a simulation, how is he or she supposed to do it in a case of a real emergency? And if he or she has done it often enough in simulations, one can only hope that he or she will be able to do it in a case of a real emergency. But there is, as always, no guarantee. All one can do is train and hope for the best.

Certainly, the cadets are observed and maybe get graded. But it is possible, that, besides the training purpose, the psychological insight in the character of a cadet is more important than the grade.

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 1:32 pm
by Kane Starkiller
But why would any cadet not keep a cool head?
1) It's a simulation so everyone knows their lives are not in jeopardy regardless of whether there are 5 or 5000 Klingon ships attacking.
2) Everyone knows what Kobayashi Maru is and that it's unbeatable so there is no pressure to actually pass the test.

Really this should be the most relaxing and casual test on the Academy rather than some kind of dreaded ordeal it's been portrayed as.

Posted: Sun May 31, 2009 2:46 pm
by Mr. Oragahn
Knowing crap about that test...
Darth Wong wrote: Except that he didn't know when to follow a rule and when not to. He risked sanction, suspension, and even potentially expulsion or career damage over something that didn't actually matter or have any significant value, and which was important chiefly because of his personal pride. How the fuck is that an example of knowing when to follow a rule and when not to? It's more an example of shitty risk/reward assessment skills.
Or a sign that no matter the gain and how an authority deems an issue rather minor, as the end result of the test is of little importance for graduation as long as it's passed by the rules), Kirk has principles and doesn't ignore them because said issue might unworthy of any attention and has been going that way for years.

That said, I really wonder the point of that test if it's that hard. Perhaps to teach a lesson that at times you're fighting against greater odds, so much it may seem you cannot win, but you still need to follow orders?
Or the lesson is elsewhere, perhaps a social and emotional test. In which case Kirk fails.