X Miranda's vs an ISD

[Praeothmin]

When was the NX-01 ever damaged by 500 GJ weapons? We know that the NX-01 had initially 500 GJ per shot per phase cannon, and that the NX-01 has survived hits from ships far in advance of her.

I didn't say "destroyed", but "damaged".
Surviving hits doesn't mean you survive them unscathed, as we've seen plenty of times in ST and SW.

Far in advance of the NX could only mean weapons twice as powerful, but with better engines, better shielding, life-support, etc...

or up to 10 TJ per shot from the combined phase cannon battery.

Still not 10 Megatons...

while in ST:ENT's "The Expanse", Archer orders the torpedoes yield increased from a relatively low setting up to 50%, which would mean, if you had a maximum yield of 10 megatons per torpedo, then the yield used at that time would be 5 MT, and so on.

We they fired upon a ship?
What was the effect seen?
Was the ship destroyed?

Interestingly enough, that being the case Dura's 22nd century BoP's forward shields was enough to withstand that kind of punishment when power from the aft shields was transfered to them.

You mean 23rd century.
Although the model was originally from the 23rd century, how do we know the Duras' sisters' ship wasn't built much later, with improved shields and weapons?
We know, as per ST: Gen that their model was put out of production 20 years earlier because of defective plasma relays, but who's to say that the ship wasn't the last one of its kind built?
Who's to say it hadn't been upgraded like the Excelsiors and Mirandas were?

[Mike DiCenso]

When was the NX-01 ever damaged by 500 GJ weapons? We know that the NX-01 had initially 500 GJ per shot per phase cannon, and that the NX-01 has survived hits from ships far in advance of her.

I didn't say "destroyed", but "damaged".
Surviving hits doesn't mean you survive them unscathed, as we've seen plenty of times in ST and SW.

Far in advance of the NX could only mean weapons twice as powerful, but with better engines, better shielding, life-support, etc...

Reread, please. I quite clearly said damaged, not destroyed. A few TW is not going to seriously damage or take out even an NX.

"Could only mean weapons twice as powerful"? Where do you get that assumption from? A 22nd century Klingon BoP or Raptor class was more than a match for an NX class starship, even later on after the introduction of upgrades.

or up to 10 TJ per shot from the combined phase cannon battery.

Still not 10 Megatons...

No, but the ship is capable of withstanding multiple kilotons of firepower and the shields on other, more advanced 22nd century ships have shields that can readily withstand that kind of firepower without serious damage.

while in ST:ENT's "The Expanse", Archer orders the torpedoes yield increased from a relatively low setting up to 50%, which would mean, if you had a maximum yield of 10 megatons per torpedo, then the yield used at that time would be 5 MT, and so on.

We they fired upon a ship?
What was the effect seen?
Was the ship destroyed?

1.) Yes. A 22nd Century BoP

2.) The ship was rocked badly. The crew was not expecting antimatter torpedoes.

3.) No.

Here's the scene from the second of three encounters with Dura's ship:

Bridge]

T'POL: It's Duras.
ARCHER: You've been wanting to test those new torpedoes.
REED: What yield?
ARCHER: Start low. We just want to get them off our backs.
(two torpedoes hit their target)

[Duras's ship]

DURAS: What was that?
HELM: Antimatter warheads.
DURAS: Increase shielding and target their weapon ports.

[Bridge]

REED: They're still on our backs, sir.
ARCHER: Bring the yield up. Fifty percent.

[Duras's ship]

(Explosions and damage)
DURAS: I told you to target the weapons port!
HELM: Their hull plating's been enhanced!
OFFICER: Our warp drive is failing.

[Bridge]

TRAVIS: They're dropping to impulse.
REED: Stand down weapons, sir?
ARCHER: (nods) How long will it take them to repair their engines?
T'POL: Impossible to determine.
ARCHER: Give me an educated guess.
T'POL: Three hours, possibly more.
ARCHER: What's our speed?
TRAVIS: Warp three, sir.
ARCHER: Go to four five. If we can make it to Vulcan space before they get their engines back, they'll think twice about giving us any more trouble.

There is a third encounter inside the Expanse. But more on that later.

Interestingly enough, that being the case Dura's 22nd century BoP's forward shields was enough to withstand that kind of punishment when power from the aft shields was transfered to them.

You mean 23rd century.
Although the model was originally from the 23rd century, how do we know the Duras' sisters' ship wasn't built much later, with improved shields and weapons?

No, I mean the one from "The Expanse" [ST:ENT, Season 2]. Here's the third and very final encounter:

[Bridge]
REED: Only one left ,sir.
ARCHER: Keep firing.
T'POL: The Expanse is less than five minutes away.
TUCKER: Maybe he'll turn around like his friends.
ARCHER: I won't bet on it. Your new torpedoes aren't having the same effect as last time.
REED: Duras has transferred his aft shields forward. Our weapons can't penetrate them.
TUCKER: We just lost three antimatter injections, Captain. Any more and we're in big trouble.
ARCHER: If he's transferred his shielding forward, what's protecting his stern?
TUCKER: Does it matter? He's chasing us.
ARCHER: What's protecting his stern?
T'POL: Minimal shielding.
ARCHER: Think you can pull off an L4 at this speed?
TRAVIS: I can try, sir.
ARCHER: Then look for the densest cloud formation you can find. Captain Archer to all hands, hold on!
TRAVIS: Captain. (a big black cloud is ahead)
ARCHER: Looks good to me.
(hidden from the Klingon, Enterprise loops the loop to end up astern of Duras)

[Duras's ship]

DURAS: Where are they? (the other officers look at each other as if to say they know exactly where Enterprise is)

[Bridge]

ARCHER: Fire. (two torpedoes blow the bird of prey apart and Enterprise sails through the middle) Nice going Travis.
TRAVIS: I hope you don't ask me to do that too often, sir.
HOSHI: The Expanse is ahead, Captain.
ARCHER: Did you lose any more of those injectors?
TUCKER: No, sir. We're good to go.
ARCHER: Sure you still want to tag along?
T'POL: It's only logical.
ARCHER: Straight and steady. Mister Mayweather. Let's see what's in there.

As you can see, once the forward shields were reinforced, the 22nd century BoP could handle being hit by the photonic torpedoes fairly well. Unfortunately, it also meant that the aft flank was completely exposed, and Archer took full advantage of it, and exploited it.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Reread, please. I quite clearly said damaged, not destroyed.

Woops... *whistling innocently*... I knew that... :)

"Could only mean weapons twice as powerful"? Where do you get that assumption from?

Just re-read it, and it is true it could be taken like that.
Re-read the phrase, but replace "Could only mean" by "Could mean weapons are only".
Much better... :)

Here's the scene from the second of three encounters with Dura's ship:

When I first read Duras, I thought you meant the BoP in ST: Gen...

And although their shields were able to withstand such power, the ship was not, because it took only 2 torpedoes to destroy the BoP once the shields was minimal (meaning it still took some power out of the attack, the remaining being enough to destroy the BoP).

So although it does seem like the reinforced shields could withstand two 5 Megaton torpedoes, the (relatively) unshielded ship could not...

So I doubt very much that the Mirandas would fare that much better if their shields were to fail.
And how many torpedoes did archer fire?
I'm sure their RoF was nowhere near that of an ISD (such as we see in ANH).
There would be much more Megaton hits in the span of a minute then What Archer subjected the BoP to...

[Mike DiCenso]

Here is a video clip of the third battle. The NX-01 fires constantly at a pretty good rate. Two torpedoes per spread, each one hitting fraction of a second apart but with little effect.

There is also this to consider about TOS-era starship hull strength; in ST:ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II", the ISS Avenger pounds the shield less USS Defiant for several minutes with little visible effect on her hull. This puts the whole Enterprise-Reliant combat in TWoK in perspective considering that the weapons and technology of the Mirror Universe NX class starships were generally more powerful and advanced than their Regular Universe counterparts.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Here is a video clip of the third battle. The NX-01 fires constantly at a pretty good rate. Two torpedoes per spread, each one hitting fraction of a second apart but with little effect.

There is also this to consider about TOS-era starship hull strength; in ST:ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II", the ISS Avenger pounds the shield less USS Defiant for several minutes with little visible effect on her hull. This puts the whole Enterprise-Reliant combat in TWoK in perspective considering that the weapons and technology of the Mirror Universe NX class starships were generally more powerful and advanced than their Regular Universe counterparts.
-Mike

IMO, that's the real kicker to any ENT based comparisons. And the figures that can be derived more directly really speak to that. It doesn't seem strange at all to say TOS torpedoes are an order of magnitude more powerful than ENT torpedoes - and the 22nd century phase cannon are much weaker than photonic torpedoes, also beyond any doubt, which puts it all in perspective.

The NX class is not a powerful warship by Star Wars standards, but one or two centuries of R&D change a lot in the Trek universe.

[Praeothmin]

Here is a video clip of the third battle. The NX-01 fires constantly at a pretty good rate. Two torpedoes per spread, each one hitting fraction of a second apart but with little effect.

I looked at the video, and it appears it takes 3 torpedoes to destroy the ship.
Still, that rate of fire isn't anywhere near an ISD's Mike.
Go watch ANH again, and rewatch RotS and the Clone Wars animated series, and you'll see that the Ent's RoF isn't close to their RoF...

[Mike DiCenso]

Here is a video clip of the third battle. The NX-01 fires constantly at a pretty good rate. Two torpedoes per spread, each one hitting fraction of a second apart but with little effect.

There is also this to consider about TOS-era starship hull strength; in ST:ENT's "In a Mirror, Darkly, Part II", the ISS Avenger pounds the shield less USS Defiant for several minutes with little visible effect on her hull. This puts the whole Enterprise-Reliant combat in TWoK in perspective considering that the weapons and technology of the Mirror Universe NX class starships were generally more powerful and advanced than their Regular Universe counterparts.
-Mike

IMO, that's the real kicker to any ENT based comparisons. And the figures that can be derived more directly really speak to that. It doesn't seem strange at all to say TOS torpedoes are an order of magnitude more powerful than ENT torpedoes - and the 22nd century phase cannon are much weaker than photonic torpedoes, also beyond any doubt, which puts it all in perspective.

The NX class is not a powerful warship by Star Wars standards, but one or two centuries of R&D change a lot in the Trek universe.

The point is not that the NX class is a powerful ship by SW standards, it is merely showing the rapid progress in starship firepower and defensive capabilites made in the 115 years between the ENT and TOS-eras. The rapid R&D is an important factor here as it demonstrates how vibrant the Federation is as an organization over the more stagnant Galactic Republic, and it's successor the Galactic Empire. The dichotomy between the two powers I think is made plain in that the Federation moved away from building big ships as it's individual members did before it's formation, and concentrated on improvements in technology and quality on smaller and then moderate-sized designs. In contrast, all that the GR, CIS, and GE did was make things bigger. Often very unwieldy designs that could be taken out by striking at some particular flaw or the other as illustrated by the demise of the Death Star in the Galactic Civil War and the defeat of the Malevolence in the earlier Clone War.

Much of this divergence in ship design philosophy is touched upon here in the "Construction of ships in both verses" thread.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Here is a video clip of the third battle. The NX-01 fires constantly at a pretty good rate. Two torpedoes per spread, each one hitting fraction of a second apart but with little effect.

I looked at the video, and it appears it takes 3 torpedoes to destroy the ship.
Still, that rate of fire isn't anywhere near an ISD's Mike.
Go watch ANH again, and rewatch RotS and the Clone Wars animated series, and you'll see that the Ent's RoF isn't close to their RoF...

I think you have missed much of my point, Praeothmin. The rate of fire of the NX-01 is not an issue here, it is to demonstrate that a relatively advanced ship of the 22nd century, in this case a small BoP, could withstand multiple megatons, though at the cost of transferring aft shield power to the front facing arc to do so. Which gets to the next point. If a small ship of the mid-22nd century could withstand that kind of punishment, then the much more advanced starships of the late 23rd century should be able to handle considerably more.

Until "In a Mirror, Darkly", we never had an idea just how much more advanced that was. Now we know that ships which can cakewalk over an NX class starship's 1-10 TJ phase cannons, and megaton yield torpedoes are defeated by a Constitution class ship of the 2260's with extreme ease. That in turn puts the potential of a Miranda taking on an ISD into better perspective. A Miranda should be able to take quite a few hits before succumbing to an ISD. A few shots will not do it.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

I think you have missed much of my point, Praeothmin. The rate of fire of the NX-01 is not an issue here, it is to demonstrate that a relatively advanced ship of the 22nd century, in this case a small BoP, could withstand multiple megatons, though at the cost of transferring aft shield power to the front facing arc to do so. Which gets to the next point. If a small ship of the mid-22nd century could withstand that kind of punishment, then the much more advanced starships of the late 23rd century should be able to handle considerably more.

I think the problem is that I was pressed for time and thus didn't express myself clearly, because your point was clear.

Here are the problems I have with this:
-RoF. It is valid, because, even if the reinforced shields of a 22nd century BoP can withstand a few megatons once every few seconds, how long will they last againts similar firepower, but with an incredibly more potent RoF.

-Once unshielded, the BoP did not last long against those same weapons.
In fact, the first torpedo did considerable damage, and the second had already finished it off. The third was overkill...

Until "In a Mirror, Darkly", we never had an idea just how much more advanced that was. Now we know that ships which can cakewalk over an NX class starship's 1-10 TJ phase cannons, and megaton yield torpedoes are defeated by a Constitution class ship of the 2260's with extreme ease.

In truth Mike, the NX did not fire photonic torpedoes at the Defiant, and even there, without shields, the Defiant was getting pounded (we could see damage being dealt).
Also, when the Defiant became active in turn, and fired upon the NX, you'll notice that the first few blast apparently are repelled by the polarized hull plating.
We don't see instant penetration like we've seen in some DS9 battles, or as in "All Good Things..." when the E-D's super Phaser goes through the Klingon ship.

Once again Mike, your point was made quite clearly, but it isn't convincing enough.

Don't forget that an ISD also has shields that allow it to fight for prolonged periods of time against enemies with an equivalent Fire Power as its own.
Don't forget that the RoF of the ISD will allow it to blanket the area of space around it with a huge fields of Turbolasers, many of which will be hard to evade.

I must say though, that you have succeeded in making my final estimate vary.
I know firmly believe that no more then 3 Mirandas will be needed to take down an ISD (with heavy damage to the Mirandas, one possibly destroyed).
I hope you're happy... :)