Would the Force even WORK in our galaxy?

[Mike DiCenso]

So... what does any of this have to do with the Force working in the Milky Way galaxy?
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

So... what does any of this have to do with the Force working in the Milky Way galaxy?
-Mike

Essentially?
That whether it works or not will not change the face of the battle field or give the SW universe any major advantage, because we've seen Jedi being taken down by small units of Commandos, and one competent Bounty Hunter...

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

So... what does any of this have to do with the Force working in the Milky Way galaxy?
-Mike

Essentially?
That whether it works or not will not change the face of the battle field or give the SW universe any major advantage, because we've seen Jedi being taken down by small units of Commandos, and one competent Bounty Hunter...

TK abilities are comon in ST so no advantage there.

A sword that can defelect individual bolts of energy just does not have the same effect as a AOE mortar round, nor can it deflect a nearby explosion that could engulf entire areas of the battle field if not all of it.

Everything we have seen of the jedi would make them superb black ops operatives, but their usefulness is significantly reduced in large scale engagments.

[Praeothmin]

Exactly!
A sith Assassin would be nearly unstoppable, but in a big ground engagement?
Not much...
Look at AotC, RotS and TCW, all the Jedi needed their Clones backup in order to fin fights, even small scale fights, so they would not be skirmish winners, only a good unit booster...

[KirkSkyWalker]

Again, you're forgetting that a single Sith-Master (i.e. Palpatine) could rule an entire galaxy-- including creating his own "super-apprentice" from conception to adulthood (i.e. Vader); and only other Force-users could stop him.

Palpatine recruited two Sith-apprentices-- and created Anakin to be his ultimate Sith-apprentice. And only Luke, Yoda and Obi-wan together had the ability to contest them.

I'd say that this makes a great deal of difference! We never saw Palpatine use any typical Force-powers except against anyone, except other Force-users; rather, he just used his "omniscience" through the Force, to manipulate the entire galaxy.

If they couldn't use the Force in our galaxy, then they'd have no power other than their sucky "Flash Gordon" technology-- which is literally like bringing a lghtsaber to a phaser-fight.

[Lucky]

Again, you're forgetting that a single Sith-Master (i.e. Palpatine) could rule an entire galaxy-- including creating his own "super-apprentice" from conception to adulthood (i.e. Vader); and only other Force-users could stop him.

Palpatine recruited two Sith-apprentices-- and created Anakin to be his ultimate Sith-apprentice. And only Luke, Yoda and Obi-wan together had the ability to contest them.

I'd say that this makes a great deal of difference! We never saw Palpatine use any typical Force-powers except against anyone, except other Force-users; rather, he just used his "omniscience" through the Force, to manipulate the entire galaxy.

If they couldn't use the Force in our galaxy, then they'd have no power other than their sucky "Flash Gordon" technology-- which is literally like bringing a lghtsaber to a phaser-fight.

In the land of the blind, the man with one working eye is king.

It's pretty much canon Palpatine was surrounded by people who were not the sharpest tacks in the box, and if you talk to some people they are to stupid to put their guns on higher then .0001%.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Again, you're forgetting that a single Sith-Master (i.e. Palpatine) could rule an entire galaxy-- including creating his own "super-apprentice" from conception to adulthood (i.e. Vader); and only other Force-users could stop him.

Palpatine recruited two Sith-apprentices-- and created Anakin to be his ultimate Sith-apprentice. And only Luke, Yoda and Obi-wan together had the ability to contest them.

I'd say that this makes a great deal of difference! We never saw Palpatine use any typical Force-powers except against anyone, except other Force-users; rather, he just used his "omniscience" through the Force, to manipulate the entire galaxy.

If they couldn't use the Force in our galaxy, then they'd have no power other than their sucky "Flash Gordon" technology-- which is literally like bringing a lghtsaber to a phaser-fight.

In the land of the blind, the man with one working eye is king.

It's pretty much canon Palpatine was surrounded by people who were not the sharpest tacks in the box, and if you talk to some people they are to stupid to put their guns on higher then .0001%.

Obviously that's what happens when Force-users lose their power-- i.e. they became too dependent on mysticism to develop any savvy intuition like Kirk had: which shows what would happen if the Empire attacked the Federation without the Force to call on!

So it does make hella difference.

[Mike DiCenso]

And here's the thing about this. Even if the Force somehow works in the MW galaxy, depending on when you set your Trek versus Wars battle, there's only going to be two Sith at any one time. More importantly there will only be two Sith at the height of the Empire; Palpatine and Vader. No Jedi to boost the fighting strength of the Stormtroopers, and as I noted before Palpatine rarely went into the fray, so that means mostly Vader, who can only be in one place at a time. So it's not the big factor some Warsies have made it out to be.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

And here's the thing about this. Even if the Force somehow works in the MW galaxy, depending on when you set your Trek versus Wars battle, there's only going to be two Sith at any one time. More importantly there will only be two Sith at the height of the Empire; Palpatine and Vader. No Jedi to boost the fighting strength of the Stormtroopers, and as I noted before Palpatine rarely went into the fray, so that means mostly Vader, who can only be in one place at a time. So it's not the big factor some Warsies have made it out to be.
-Mike

Again, you're missing the big picture. When did Palpatine or his apprentices ever use their Force-powers directly when taking over the galaxy, except against Jedi? Never once.
Rather, they used the Force for omniscience in order to know who to control and manipulate in secret; if they usd their Sith-powers openlyagainst non-Jedi, they'd give themselves way.
Consider: Palpatine used the Dark Side to enable him to start a civil war in order to divide the galaxy, and then conquered from within. Why couldn't he do the same in our galaxy, given all the rival factions at odds: i.e. the Borg, the Klingon and Romulan empires, the Federation etc? Using the Dark Side, he could know where and how to manipulate for his own purposes, pretending to help them win-- when in reality he's just fooling everyone.

So this is the REAL power of the Force that Vader was talking about-- compared to which the power to the destroy a planet was nothing, since the Force allowed one to rule the galaxy.

[KirkSkyWalker]

And here's the thing about this. Even if the Force somehow works in the MW galaxy, depending on when you set your Trek versus Wars battle, there's only going to be two Sith at any one time. More importantly there will only be two Sith at the height of the Empire; Palpatine and Vader. No Jedi to boost the fighting strength of the Stormtroopers, and as I noted before Palpatine rarely went into the fray, so that means mostly Vader, who can only be in one place at a time. So it's not the big factor some Warsies have made it out to be.
-Mike

Again, you're missing the big picture. When did Palpatine or his apprentices ever use their Force-powers directly when taking over the galaxy, except against Jedi? Never once.
Rather, they used the Force for omniscience in order to know who to control and manipulate in secret; if they usd their Sith-powers openlyagainst non-Jedi, they'd give themselves way.
Consider: Palpatine used the Dark Side to enable him to start a civil war in order to divide the galaxy, and then conquered from within. Why couldn't he do the same in our galaxy, given all the rival forces already at odds: i.e. the Borg, the Founders, the Klingon and Romulan empires, the Federation etc? Using the Dark Side, he could know where and how to manipulate for his own purposes, pretending to help them win-- when in reality he's just fooling everyone.

So this is the REAL power of the Force that Vader was talking about-- compared to which the power to the destroy a planet was nothing, since the Force allowed one to rule the galaxy.

[Lucky]

Again, you're forgetting that a single Sith-Master (i.e. Palpatine) could rule an entire galaxy-- including creating his own "super-apprentice" from conception to adulthood (i.e. Vader); and only other Force-users could stop him.

Palpatine recruited two Sith-apprentices-- and created Anakin to be his ultimate Sith-apprentice. And only Luke, Yoda and Obi-wan together had the ability to contest them.

I'd say that this makes a great deal of difference! We never saw Palpatine use any typical Force-powers except against anyone, except other Force-users; rather, he just used his "omniscience" through the Force, to manipulate the entire galaxy.

If they couldn't use the Force in our galaxy, then they'd have no power other than their sucky "Flash Gordon" technology-- which is literally like bringing a lghtsaber to a phaser-fight.

In the land of the blind, the man with one working eye is king.

It's pretty much canon Palpatine was surrounded by people who were not the sharpest tacks in the box, and if you talk to some people they are to stupid to put their guns on higher then .0001%.

Obviously that's what happens when Force-users lose their power-- i.e. they became too dependent on mysticism to develop any savvy intuition like Kirk had: which shows what would happen if the Empire attacked the Federation without the Force to call on!

So it does make hella difference.

You misunderstand, I think.

I was saying Palpatine did not need the force to take power because everyone else just wasn't all that smart/cunning not that that says much in his favor. What ever powers the jedi might have had weakened did not have much effect on their over all effectiveness. I find the idea that everything happens because of force powers to make Star Wars very unenjoyable, and unfounded.

Blasters are just that bad,

The droids and clones/storm troops are just that incompetent.

The people in charge are just that stupid or naive.

In spite of the series name the Star Wars universe seems to be filled with the type of people often assumed to run the UFP.

[KirkSkyWalker]

You misunderstand, I think.
.

You misunderstand, I know. The point of the story-- the moral, if you will-- was the political dilemma of choosing pragmatism over principle, and rationalizing the ethics; it wasn't about the bells and whistles of technology, which were simply there to show that this principle doesn't change.

Star Trek, meanwhile, held the philosophy that civilization can progress beyond such dilemmas in the future-- just as it can progress technologically; for example when Khan, a 20th century popular sovereign ruler came into Kirk's time, he soon found that his tactics of elite imperialism wouldn't work anymore, since mankind had progressed beyond them. However Star Trek was about the future, while Star Wars was more of an epic-drama about age-old political more's.

I was saying Palpatine did not need the force to take power because everyone else just wasn't all that smart/cunning not that that says much in his favor. What ever powers the jedi might have had weakened did not have much effect on their over all effectiveness. I find the idea that everything happens because of force powers to make Star Wars very unenjoyable, and unfounded.

Blasters are just that bad,

The droids and clones/storm troops are just that incompetent.

The people in charge are just that stupid or naive.

You mean Jar-Jar? Palpatine carefully arranged for that-- he needed an idiot-senator who'd do whatever he needed, while he got Padme out of the way, at the same time setting her up with Anakin to make him more suseptible to the Dark Side.
It's not the first time that a ruthless conniving tyrant appointed a "useless idiot" to power-- in fact Papa Joe Stalin built his empire on doing just that, as did many others.

In spite of the series name the Star Wars universe seems to be filled with the type of people often assumed to run the UFP.

So you're saying that everything that the series claimed is untrue, with regard to the Dark Side clouding the judgment of the Jedi Council, and rendering then unable to use the Force.

As for Star Wars people being stupid for being fooled by the Sith, the same thing happened right here under the Whigs. Iit's easy to criticize, when it happens to someone else in 20/20 hindsight of fiction; meanwhile ironically you yourself probably fail to recognize identically ruthess politicians who use "The Dark Side" of politics under the same rationalizations of pragmatism, whether their first name is Palpatine or Abraham; both lied out o both sides of their ass in the finest traition of Machiavelian prgamatism.

[Lucky]

You misunderstand, I think.
.

You misunderstand, I know. The point of the story-- the moral, if you will-- was the political dilemma of choosing pragmatism over principle, and rationalizing the ethics; it wasn't about the bells and whistles of technology, which were simply there to show that this principle doesn't change.

Star Trek, meanwhile, held the philosophy that civilization can progress beyond such dilemmas in the future-- just as it can progress technologically; for example when Khan, a 20th century popular sovereign ruler came into Kirk's time, he soon found that his tactics of elite imperialism wouldn't work anymore, since mankind had progressed beyond them. However Star Trek was about the future, while Star Wars was more of an epic-drama about age-old political more's.

No, in fanon the UFP is a spineless, peace at any cost "space hippies" who have no idea what a real war is, or how to properly fight one because the series tries to work things out diplomatically, and avoid blood shed. The wars are near constant from what I've seen of Trek, but in the background.

The worlds in Star Wars on the other hand is far more like the fanon UFP. They think three million soldiers is a large army for a Galactic power like the Republic to have. 10,000 jedi was all that was really needed to police at least 100,000 worlds.

I was saying Palpatine did not need the force to take power because everyone else just wasn't all that smart/cunning not that that says much in his favor. What ever powers the jedi might have had weakened did not have much effect on their over all effectiveness. I find the idea that everything happens because of force powers to make Star Wars very unenjoyable, and unfounded.

Blasters are just that bad,

The droids and clones/storm troops are just that incompetent.

The people in charge are just that stupid or naive.

You mean Jar-Jar? Palpatine carefully arranged for that-- he needed an idiot-senator who'd do whatever he needed, while he got Padme out of the way, at the same time setting her up with Anakin to make him more suseptible to the Dark Side.
It's not the first time that a ruthless conniving tyrant appointed a "useless idiot" to power-- in fact Papa Joe Stalin built his empire on doing just that, as did many others.

I meant the senators we see in general. I seem to recall a group of them wanting to cut military spending when the fighting was at it's worst during the clone wars, and if they had written the bill that put Palpatine in charge carefully his legal reign would have ended with the clone wars.

In spite of the series name the Star Wars universe seems to be filled with the type of people often assumed to run the UFP.

So you're saying that everything that the series claimed is untrue, with regard to the Dark Side clouding the judgment of the Jedi Council, and rendering then unable to use the Force.

I don't recall anything being said about the Dark Side clouding the judgment of the Jedi Council. I recall it being said the dark side was somehow weakening the jedi, but not to a point that they could not do their jobs. At worst it seemed to make long term precog very difficult if not impossible.

As for Star Wars people being stupid for being fooled by the Sith, the same thing happened right here under the Whigs. Iit's easy to criticize, when it happens to someone else in 20/20 hindsight of fiction; meanwhile ironically you yourself probably fail to recognize identically ruthess politicians who use "The Dark Side" of politics under the same rationalizations of pragmatism, whether their first name is Palpatine or Abraham; both lied out o both sides of their ass in the finest traition of Machiavelian prgamatism.

I just don't see a reason to attribute the events to a supernatural force when things could have just as easily been done in a mundane way.

There is no reason to assume magic when the mundane fits just as well, or better.

[KirkSkyWalker]

No, in fanon the UFP is a spineless, peace at any cost "space hippies" who have no idea what a real war is, or how to properly fight one because the series tries to work things out diplomatically, and avoid blood shed. The wars are near constant from what I've seen of Trek, but in the background.

Maybe under Picard, when Star Trek definitely devolved into leftist morals of elite "doormat" pacifism, and condescending, touchy-feely preaching that it's "the lesser of two evils" blah blah blah like they were talking down to the audience in a "Barney" manner as if they were 2-year old children. Disgusting.

However under the original Trek, Kirk represented a moral of using force when necessary, but only when the objective was toward preserving populism vs. dictatorship. That's why when Khan tried to "save humanity" by taking over the Enterprise with his army, no one would follow him; even though the senior officers admired him from the past (in a way that Spock found shocking and disturbing), they were still against his ways in the present out of a belief in individual freedom.
For this reason, the Federation likewise does not allow conscription; when McCoy says "I was drafted" in STI:TMP, he was being facetious, according to Roddenberry in the novelization.

The worlds in Star Wars on the other hand is far more like the fanon UFP. They think three million soldiers is a large army for a Galactic power like the Republic to have. 10,000 jedi was all that was really needed to police at least 100,000 worlds.

The worlds policed themselves, the Jedi were just there to keep peace between them. However here it was more like 1984, where a small illuminati "Big Brother" Jedi could watch over everyone-- and dispatch the Jedi to "resolve" any problems.

You mean Jar-Jar? Palpatine carefully arranged for that-- he needed an idiot-senator who'd do whatever he needed, while he got Padme out of the way, at the same time setting her up with Anakin to make him more suseptible to the Dark Side.
It's not the first time that a ruthless conniving tyrant appointed a "useless idiot" to power-- in fact Papa Joe Stalin built his empire on doing just that, as did many others.

I meant the senators we see in general. I seem to recall a group of them wanting to cut military spending when the fighting was at it's worst during the clone wars, and if they had written the bill that put Palpatine in charge carefully his legal reign would have ended with the clone wars.

Again, this was all Palpatine's doing, by using the Dark Side to keep the Jedi from seeing what he was up to; however it's exactly what happened in the history of real-world politics, via "divide and conquer" strategy of a covert dictator destabilizing peace and creating fear on one hand, while agitating for war on the other.It's an age-old story.

So you're saying that everything that the series claimed is untrue, with regard to the Dark Side clouding the judgment of the Jedi Council, and rendering then unable to use the Force.

I don't recall anything being said about the Dark Side clouding the judgment of the Jedi Council.

Then you're about the only one who doesn't: it was like the central theme of Eps. II and III.

As for Star Wars people being stupid for being fooled by the Sith, the same thing happened right here under the Whigs. Iit's easy to criticize, when it happens to someone else in 20/20 hindsight of fiction; meanwhile ironically you yourself probably fail to recognize identically ruthess politicians who use "The Dark Side" of politics under the same rationalizations of pragmatism, whether their first name is Palpatine or Abraham; both lied out o both sides of their ass in the finest traition of Machiavelian prgamatism.

I just don't see a reason to attribute the events to a supernatural force when things could have just as easily been done in a mundane way.

There is no reason to assume magic when the mundane fits just as well, or better.

I didn't "assume" anything, it was stated quite clearly and expressly in the dialogue of the Jedi Council. I have no idea how you could have missed that central theme; it's like watching "The Crying Game" and not knowing that THAT WOMAN IS A MAN, BABY!

[Mike DiCenso]

For this reason, the Federation likewise does not allow conscription; when McCoy says "I was drafted" in STI:TMP, he was being facetious, according to Roddenberry in the novelization.

Um, no that's not quite right. On pages 85-86 of the ST:TMP novelization Bones is genuinely angry at being forced back, and even more upset when he finds out that the idea for drafting him was Kirk's idea, not Nogura's. What the novelization says is this:

"The time was long past when men could be forced to serve on naval vessels. Nogura's "drafting" of McCoy (at Kirk's request) had little more authority than moral persuasion. But McCoy had come this far, perhaps only out of curiosity, and Kirk did not intend to lose him now."

So Nogura did send out a conscription order after a fashion, though it held no real authority, and McCoy went along with it, but he was still genuinely pissed off at that. But more so he was pissed off with Kirk for coming up with such a thing to get him to come back.
-Mike