The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

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KirkSkyWalker
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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:58 am

The Dude wrote:Look shit for brains, I'm ex-military..
But neither an officer nor a gentleman, obviously. That type usually is former.
I'm also not a Picard fan, rather a TOS fan but 9/11 should have no bearing on Trek,
Au contraire; it was written by pre-9/11 liberals, and reflected their pacifistic arrogance-- the type I'm taking issue with right now, and which led to 9/11.
I guess I shouln't discuss the Flying Tigers leading to Pearl Harbor, either, or any other real-world examples.
its a fictional universe and while I don't agree completely with everything Roddenberry tried to do, I appreciate that the show was a direct result of his experiance in WWII.
Well here's a Newsflash: that episode was written years after the Great Bird re-joined the galaxy... and decades after he flew over the cuckoo's nest.
And a hundred years from now, 9/11 will be a footnote, theres no reason for it to affect Trek or its fans. The universe departed from our time line decades back
Again, au contraire; those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them-- Karl Marx proved this 2500 years post-Socrates.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by The Dude » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:01 pm

Ahh fuck it, these guys are never worth arguing with.

sonofccn
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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by sonofccn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:58 pm

Okay my two cents:

First off had I been in Picard shoes I'd would not have alerted the Romulans to the succesful construction of a phase-cloak. No need to give them ideas or grant them a feather in thier cap to drive more concessions at the bargaining table. Since Pressman is breaking the treaty I report him, over secured channels, and let the high brass behind close doors decide how to proceed.

Second KirkSkywalker as must as I agree the TNG were a helluva lot softer than Kirk shouting "liberal pacifistic arrogance" because the Federation won't go to war with the Romulans over blowing up the Enterprise is going too far. There are valid reasons for the two powers not to get into a slugging match. Namely the two could destroy each other. Now that shouldn't mean you can't play to win the game, like Kirk did to steal a cloaking device,but it also means you can't go to war over every trick your enemy pulls.

Oh and lastly:
WILGA wrote:And contrary to some Americans, who do not seem to have a problem with abducting, mistreating and killing people as long as they aren't American citizens, members of Starfleet usually have a problem with being forced to kill other sentient beings, regardless of their affiliation.
If it isn't too much trouble could you keep such expressions to the political forum? I nearly got whiplash the way you veered from talking about starfleet to "some Americans" and than back again with no real reason or merit for the departure. Thank you.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:12 pm

The Dude wrote:Look shit for brains, I'm ex-military..
KirkSkywalker wrote:But neither an officer nor a gentleman, obviously. That type usually is former.
May I kindly direct the two of you to the rules about civility? And perhaps the entire political discussion to the "Other" forum section?

Thank you.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by The Dude » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:14 pm

Wait...WILGA should keep politics to the appropriate forum but we have to listen to Kirk Skywalker bash liberals and go on about how Star Trek should be Space 24 because of 9/11?

How does that make any sense?

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:23 pm

The Dude wrote:Wait...WILGA should keep politics to the appropriate forum but we have to listen to Kirk Skywalker bash liberals and go on about how Star Trek should be Space 24 because of 9/11?

How does that make any sense?
"Entire political discussion" is not intended to be exclusive of what KSW might have to say about politics.

Although, thinking about it, talking about how Star Trek should or should not be Space 24 might be nicely suited to "Reviews and Critiques."

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by sonofccn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:26 pm

The Dude wrote:Wait...WILGA should keep politics to the appropriate forum but we have to listen to Kirk Skywalker bash liberals and go on about how Star Trek should be Space 24 because of 9/11?

How does that make any sense?
You as well as Mike already commented upon Kirk Skywalker's tangent regarding 9/11. No one had so far remarked upon WIlGA's...shall we say more blunt comment.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:30 pm

Jedi Master Spock wrote:
The Dude wrote:Wait...WILGA should keep politics to the appropriate forum but we have to listen to Kirk Skywalker bash liberals and go on about how Star Trek should be Space 24 because of 9/11?

How does that make any sense?
"Entire political discussion" is not intended to be exclusive of what KSW might have to say about politics.

Although, thinking about it, talking about how Star Trek should or should not be Space 24 might be nicely suited to "Reviews and Critiques."
Pshaw, who needs torture when you've got the Vulcan mind-probe?
I'm simply saying that it was Picard's type of wimpy politically-correct policies of soft-touch appeasement during the Clinton-years when the show originally aired, that led to the 9/11 attacks.

This is relevant, since this type of thinking was being piously preached by Berman and the writers of the series through this plot-premise; so this type of perfect-world pacifism is clearly pre-9/11 thinking.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by The Dude » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:42 pm

KirkSkywalker wrote:
Pshaw, who needs torture when you've got the Vulcan mind-probe?
I'm simply saying that it was Picard's type of wimpy politically-correct policies of soft-touch appeasement during the Clinton-years when the show originally aired, that led to the 9/11 attacks.

This is relevant, since this type of thinking was being piously preached by Berman and the writers of the series through this plot-premise; so this type of perfect-world pacifism is clearly pre-9/11 thinking.
No it doesn't. ST doesn't even follow our timeline, it's not meant to be a political commentary on the failings of the United States. If you want stuff that follows that line, watch nBSG.

This whole "liberals! liberals! liberals!" bunk is just a total red herring.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:43 pm

WILGA wrote:KirkSkywalker is correct when he says that the attempted destruction of the Enterprise can be considered a casus belli.
        • Although one should also consider how far the lonely decision of a Romulan captain of a Romulan ship can be attributed to the whole Romulan Empire.
Assuming the Romulan captain was acting alone, engaging an act of interstellar war in violation of orders, when their entire philosphy is based on duty to the Empire ("Balance of Terror"). It's far more likely that it was under orders from above, and ordered to deny it-- like Kirk was, in "The Enterprise Incident--" and where's the evidence that it wasn't?
I think that's a fair question.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:24 pm

KirkSkywalker wrote:I'm simply saying that it was Picard's type of wimpy politically-correct policies of soft-touch appeasement during the Clinton-years when the show originally aired, that led to the 9/11 attacks.
And many people don't agree with you.
I personnaly would not have done the same thing, but I understand Picard's intentions when doing it.
Sooner or later, when Pressman faces court-martial charges, or even a simple dismissal if Starfleet wants to keep this secret, the Romulans would find out about this, and would want to know more.
And in this case, we are in the political debate arena, and we have no proof of anything, except how Starfleet did indeed seem to approve of Picard's choice because he received no sanction at all...

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by The Dude » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:34 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
And many people don't agree with you.
I personnaly would not have done the same thing, but I understand Picard's intentions when doing it.
Sooner or later, when Pressman faces court-martial charges, or even a simple dismissal if Starfleet wants to keep this secret, the Romulans would find out about this, and would want to know more.
And in this case, we are in the political debate arena, and we have no proof of anything, except how Starfleet did indeed seem to approve of Picard's choice because he received no sanction at all...
Indeed, Picard was bound legally to report the treaty violation (he didn't have to tell the Romulan's. I would have just zipped out of the system and let them find out via diplomatic channels). He shouldn't have received serious sanction for his actions.

That said, theres no reason to go to war over it either. The Romulan's will find out eventually that the project actually failed, they only had one working copy and they could probably wrangle some diplomatic concessions out of the Feds. We also see a few times in TNG that the Feds have the ability to detect cloaked ships, so their not operating at a severe disadvantage. Later on when they find the Romulans doing something similar, they get to demand concessions from them.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:07 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
KirkSkywalker wrote:I'm simply saying that it was Picard's type of wimpy politically-correct policies of soft-touch appeasement during the Clinton-years when the show originally aired, that led to the 9/11 attacks.
And many people don't agree with you.
I personnaly would not have done the same thing, but I understand Picard's intentions when doing it.
Sooner or later, when Pressman faces court-martial charges, or even a simple dismissal if Starfleet wants to keep this secret, the Romulans would find out about this, and would want to know more.
And in this case, we are in the political debate arena, and we have no proof of anything, except how Starfleet did indeed seem to approve of Picard's choice because he received no sanction at all...
If Picard had just kept quiet then the whole issue would have been kept secret, and dealt with internally by Starfleet. In contrast, by airing Starfleet's dirty laundry to the Romulans, Picard:
1) informed the Romulans that the Federation had possession of asuccessfully working phase-cloak-- and had already accomplished it for over a decade;
2) used the phase-cloak, thereby violating the treaty right before their eyes; and
3) brought up questions for the Romulans, as to whether Picard was truly being honest, or just playing some sort of mind-game trickery in which he was ordered to make this claim, order to clear the Federation by having Presman take the fall--possibly in which they didn't even have a phase-coak, but were engage in some game which made it look like they did. The Romulans woudn't know if he was teling the truth, just because he actually was telling it.
In short, to borrow a phrase, Picard "acted stupidly," placing his own sense of personal honor before his duty to the good of the Federation.
Likewise, what was Picard's evidence that the Admiral was acting against Starfleet orders?
The Treaty itself? Officers can be ordered to violate treaties all the time, it doesn't give them the right to arrest the official who issues the order. A simple call to Starfleet HQ would have done the job-- and would have been proper, in order to verify the order-- and receive proper instruction on the matter if it wasn't.
However it seems that Picard is the actual head of Starfleet, and can take it upon himself to make top-level decisions on his own discretion, jumping the heads of Starfleet command themselves.

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by KirkSkyWalker » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:14 pm

The Dude wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:
And many people don't agree with you.
I personnaly would not have done the same thing, but I understand Picard's intentions when doing it.
Sooner or later, when Pressman faces court-martial charges, or even a simple dismissal if Starfleet wants to keep this secret, the Romulans would find out about this, and would want to know more.
And in this case, we are in the political debate arena, and we have no proof of anything, except how Starfleet did indeed seem to approve of Picard's choice because he received no sanction at all...
Indeed, Picard was bound legally to report the treaty violation (he didn't have to tell the Romulan's. I would have just zipped out of the system and let them find out via diplomatic channels). He shouldn't have received serious sanction for his actions.

That said, theres no reason to go to war over it either. The Romulan's will find out eventually that the project actually failed, they only had one working copy and they could probably wrangle some diplomatic concessions out of the Feds. We also see a few times in TNG that the Feds have the ability to detect cloaked ships, so their not operating at a severe disadvantage. Later on when they find the Romulans doing something similar, they get to demand concessions from them.

The Romulans didn't have to find about it at all, it could have been dealt with entirely by Starfleet internal affairs; or, if they decided, they could have issued a disclosure of the matter, and had the Federation issue a formal apology to the Romulans.

However Picard had no business making all those decisions for the Federation; but it was the Seventh and last season, and clearly Berman and the writers were getting a swelled head with their idealism-- and beginning to lose some of their marbles as well.

"It's just a show, and I should really just relax."

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Re: The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

Post by The Dude » Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:17 pm

Yeah, I think you ought to.

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