X Miranda's vs an ISD

[Mike DiCenso]

There are a few times where ships fire on another that is not at warp:


- "Balance of Terror" [TOS, Season1: ] is the first possible canidate for this since the Romulan Bird of Prey may or may not be at FTL throughout some of the battle with the Enterprise. If not warp capable, then the BoP is being strafed by the warp capable Enterprise. If warp capable, then it is a demonstation a superior warp vessel over another, somewhat slower one.


- "Journey to Babel" [TOS, Season2]: while both the Enterprise and the Orion raider are at warp, the Orion starship is capable of warp 10, while the Enterprise is obviously slower, showing the advantages of a faster warp capable ship over another, slower one, in combat.


- "Elann of Troyius": The most recognized episode because it shows a clearly at warp Klingon D-7 battlecruiser out maneuvering the crippled, impulse power only Enterprise. The Klingon ship with it's superior power generation is able to fire more powerful shots and the Enterprise's shields, because they are impulse power only, are too weak to last long against the other's weapons.

In all but BoT does the superior warp capable vessel hit with unerring accuracy, while the opposing vessel can do little in return. In BoT, the only reason the BoP is not outright destroyed or crippled in the Enterprise's opening salvos is because of it's cloaking device, which render's the Federation starship's sensors less accurate and hides it completely from visual detection.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

Mike, all your examples, except for EoT, show two Warp moving vessels shooting at each other, which is easier then shooting a stationary object while at Warp.

So we saw it only once, and we don't know how fast at Warp the D-7 Battlecruiser was going, and how fast at STL speeds the enterprize was going.
If the D-7 was going, say, at Warp 1 (c), and the enterprize at Full-Impulse (0.25c), then it would be easier to hit the Enterprize then if the D-7 cruiser was going at Warp 7 (say 200c) and the Enterprize at one-quarter impulse (0.0825c).
Yes, even in the first example, it's tough and it shows that the possibility exists, but even moreso then the range issue, it seems it's seen only once in all of ST, making it an incredible exception.

[Mike DiCenso]

BoT is very borderline. Clearly the Romulan ship is travelling at FTL speeds, but it is uncertain if the ship is doing so most of the time, or only for when the cloaking device is not engaged. Much of this confusion steming from Scotty's line of "Their power is simple impulse", and what is required to power a starship to FLT speeds in Trek.


The JtB example is noteworthy because it is possibly the first and only time a starship at warp speed is hit by an STL one. As the Orion Raider moved in to inspect the apparently dead Enterprise, their speed had dropped down to "near sublight", at which point the Enterprise fires on the raider and disables it at 70 thousand km. It also shows that the Orion probably intended to finish off the Enterprise while still at warp, abiet a very low velocity warp speed strafing run.

The subject of the "Elann of Troyius" warp strafing is well covered here. We know from Spock's dialog that at one point the Klingon battlecruiser was making "better than warp six", and from Scotty that the Enterprise could only manage 93% of impulse power.


Oh, and another probable example of warp strafing may be found in "The Changeling" [TOS, Season 2], where the Enterprise, her warp power diverted to shields is at STL speeds, and Nomad (still apparently at warp) fires it's weapons which were clocked at warp 15.
-Mike

[Mith]

Again, I agree that I underestimate the resiliance of an ISD a bit, but surely six Miranda's are not needed to take one ISD down. Remember, these things have inferior firepower to the NX.

Not really. An NX class starship only would rate around 1-10 TW per shot from her forward twin phase cannon batteries. Only the photonic torpedoes give an NX anything like megaton range firepower, and those torpedoes will be limited in numbers. The triton class spatial torpedoes and the plasma cannons the ships used early on don't even merit consideration their yeilds are so low.

ISD's on the other hand will be able to fire single and possibly double-digit kiloton shots from the myrid numbers of their small and medium TL batteries, the combined firepower of which can probably hurt medium-small Trek ships like a Miranda in short order, if enough shots can be landed.

The heavy TLs on an ISD should be much more powerful than you are giving them credit for. RSA's calculations mostly apply to the the TLs of the Republic cruiser star destroyers (a.k.a Venators). An ISD also has quite a large number of heavy TL turrets as see here in this detail photo of the Avenger Type-II ISD model from TESB. There are eight gun barrels per large battery and four such batteries overall, or 32 barrels. That's 32 x 1.5 MT = 48 megatons per broadside. The light and medium TLs might be able to amass a collective firepower that is nearly comparable. The total forward or topside arc firepower for an ISD could collectively exceed 100 MT.


While TIE fighter and bomber firepower does not seem very impressive, a few gigawatts at best, the fighters can be used as a sufficent distraction, or proton torpedoes can be used to whittle a little bit away at the Miranda's shields.
-Mike

Actually, photonic torpedoes range up to around 40 megatons, so it's about a 3 isoton weapon.

[Mith]

The Miranda isn't that maneuverable.
It is more maneuverable then any ship it's size in the SW universe though, but it would still get hit a few times just by the sheer amount of shots being fired in its general direction.

2046 has already beaten me to it (I forgot all about this), but the Miranda is fairly manuverable. Enough so that they chose it to protect the Defiant's flank. If they weren't able to keep up with her enough to the point that it would horribly slow down one of their better warships, the point would be moot and a waste. In essence, Sisko would have had to be a bit of a twit to assign them to his flanks.

No they weren't.
The Mirandas I'm talking about are the ones in SoA where they follow the Defiant as escorts in the enemy fleet.
We see them fly around, twist and turn, and then get it by a few shots that completely destroy them.
And this is at the beginning of the fight, the Defiant hadn't even taken a shot yet.

This is also the Dominion, who fire 10 isoton charges (compared to Voyager's 6.25 standard class VI warheads) just to scare people (the ship). This is already ignoring the fact that the Miranda would probably be more heavily armed than Voyager (torp wise at least) because of the recent war. That Miranda took a shot from a Galor (a more advanced and modern ship) and then a ten isoton shot from a Dominion cruiser.

Compared to the speed and maneuverability displayed by the Mirandas in SoA, the Tantive was indeed going at a mere "crawl"... :)

Actually, the display we got of a similar class ship in Ambush might suggest that the Tantive IV could be more manuverable, but it may have been damaged.

[Praeothmin]

2046 has already beaten me to it (I forgot all about this), but the Miranda is fairly manuverable. Enough so that they chose it to protect the Defiant's flank. If they weren't able to keep up with her enough to the point that it would horribly slow down one of their better warships, the point would be moot and a waste. In essence, Sisko would have had to be a bit of a twit to assign them to his flanks.

Since the Defiant wasn't all-out maneuvering, and was going pretty much in a straight liine trying to break through, the Mirandas were quite capable of following (we see them do so quite easily).
But ewe have yet to see them maneuver like the Defiant does in the alternate universe to evade the fire of the huge Klingon ship, or when it maneuvers through DS9's pylons pursuing Klingon BoPs, or when it twists and turns in many DS9 battle scenes vs the Dominion.

Sorry Mith, while I agree the Mirandas are quite maneuverable (as I stated many times), you will never convince me they are good enough to evade all the fire coming from an ISD.

This is already ignoring the fact that the Miranda would probably be more heavily armed than Voyager (torp wise at least) because of the recent war. That Miranda took a shot from a Galor (a more advanced and modern ship) and then a ten isoton shot from a Dominion cruiser.

No argument here, and I was also recently shown that we do not indeed know the extent of the battle when we see them get destroyed, so they may be a little more resistent then I had originally estimated, but they are still not lone ISD killers...

Actually, the display we got of a similar class ship in Ambush might suggest that the Tantive IV could be more manuverable, but it may have been damaged.

When and where has that been seen?

[Mith]

Since the Defiant wasn't all-out maneuvering, and was going pretty much in a straight liine trying to break through, the Mirandas were quite capable of following (we see them do so quite easily).
But ewe have yet to see them maneuver like the Defiant does in the alternate universe to evade the fire of the huge Klingon ship, or when it maneuvers through DS9's pylons pursuing Klingon BoPs, or when it twists and turns in many DS9 battle scenes vs the Dominion.

Sorry Mith, while I agree the Mirandas are quite maneuverable (as I stated many times), you will never convince me they are good enough to evade all the fire coming from an ISD.

I'm not claiming that the Miranda is as as maneuverable as the Defiant, but I am saying that she is probably more maneuverable than most of the other ships; enough so that she could evade a fairly decent amount of firepower. And nor do I recall me saying that the Miranda did. Its heavier weapons, perhaps, but all firepower would be somewhat difficult, given the amount of weapons firing.

No argument here, and I was also recently shown that we do not indeed know the extent of the battle when we see them get destroyed, so they may be a little more resistent then I had originally estimated, but they are still not lone ISD killers...

I think here is where we are coming to the problem. I don't see these ships as being up to par enough to firmly stand against 23rd century UFP ships.

But the fact is that they very much are; we've seen that most Imperial warships can only give out two megatons per HTL (one per beam). The NX-01 had torpedoes with 40 MT warheads. While I doubt they could in any day hope to match the Empire in a war or even in a 1 vs 1 scenario, it is fairly telling of how well said ship would do well against a Miranda class warship.

[/QUOTE]When and where has that been seen?[/quote]

Ambush? The Star Wars episode? I believe the ship that he used was similar to the Tantive IV...

[Praeothmin]

enough so that she could evade a fairly decent amount of firepower.

So we agree she wouldn't evade everything... :)

But the fact is that they very much are

Perhaps in Torpedo Firepower, not in resistance.
It doesn't matter that we don't know how long they were fighting, they didn't appear very damaged, and yet went down after only one or two shots each, meaning they aren't that though...

T

he NX-01 had torpedoes with 40 MT warheads.

At their top yields, yet how many times are they mentioned as used at those yields against other ships?

Ambush? The Star Wars episode?

You mean the series?
Haven't seen it, I didn't get the chance yet.

[Mith]

So we agree she wouldn't evade everything... :)

I wasn't trying to indicate otherwise. =)

Perhaps in Torpedo Firepower, not in resistance.
It doesn't matter that we don't know how long they were fighting, they didn't appear very damaged, and yet went down after only one or two shots each, meaning they aren't that though...

Perhaps, but even if we assume that only ten megatons were used for enemy torpedoes, that does put them at a fairly significant advantage.

At their top yields, yet how many times are they mentioned as used at those yields against other ships?

Even if we presume that they are using half of that figure, it's still 10x stronger than what an Imperial turret can put out. Granted, the NX-01 series is too small and probably too vulnarble to take up a fight against an ISD, but she might give them a bloody nose (if she's lucky).

You mean the series?
Haven't seen it, I didn't get the chance yet.

If the second episode is any indication of the common level of quality, it might actually be a decent, if not good series. Anakin is actually much more realistic...despite the fact that his face appears to have been carved out wood, the actor playing him is much less wooden than the one who played him in the movies.

[Praeothmin]

Perhaps, but even if we assume that only ten megatons were used for enemy torpedoes, that does put them at a fairly significant advantage.

The problem I have with this is:
Why should we assume 10 Megatons?
Who says it isn't 1 Megaton?
100 kilotons?
Although we know how powerful a torpedo can be, we have never had a clear indication of how powerful they are when fired at a ship...

Unlike the hand phasers, which the settings were often stated, and from which we can derive good power figures, it's always hard to estimate the power of a torpedo according to the effects seen.
If the ship it hits explodes, is it just the torpedo, or did the A/M in the Warp core have anything to do with it?
If a huge whole in the side appears, only the torpedo, or a power coupling also?

it's still 10x stronger than what an Imperial turret can put out.

Where was that calculated?
By whom?

If the second episode is any indication of the common level of quality, it might actually be a decent, if not good series.

Good to know, because I intended to by it when it came out on DVD.
I know, I'm a compulsive SW buyer... ST too I have to add... nBSG... Blade... Ok, I'm a compulsive DVD buyer, period... :)

despite the fact that his face appears to have been carved out wood, the actor playing him is much less wooden than the one who played him in the movies.

Come on, it wasn't that hard being better... :)

[Mith]

The problem I have with this is:
Why should we assume 10 Megatons?
Who says it isn't 1 Megaton?
100 kilotons?
Although we know how powerful a torpedo can be, we have never had a clear indication of how powerful they are when fired at a ship...

Unlike the hand phasers, which the settings were often stated, and from which we can derive good power figures, it's always hard to estimate the power of a torpedo according to the effects seen.
If the ship it hits explodes, is it just the torpedo, or did the A/M in the Warp core have anything to do with it?
If a huge whole in the side appears, only the torpedo, or a power coupling also?

Then why give us the yield? If a torpedo can perform a 40 megaton blast (it was stated that this was the max yield of the torpedo...so why not use the antimatter since it's already there?), then why not use a significant amount of that yield? Why not at least use 20 megatons? Are you really suggesting that they waste 4,900 kilotons to damage a ship rather than vaporizing by using something closer to 2,000 kilotons? Your argument makes no sense. Surely, we can believe that not all of them are at the max yield, but why say it wastes the vast majority of the antimatter?

Where was that calculated?
By whom?

2046 did it on his site (ST vs SW), where he gave calculations from the novel which stated that the long energy beams could vaporize an entire town (only the large ones would have a chance of being seen from space). He calculated it to a megaton. Higher estimations is 1.5 megatons at the most. That's two to three megatons per turret.

Granted, the SW could still down an NX-01 ship, given that her broadside would be about 36 megatons, pluse fighters and bombers, but it wouldn't be an easy fight.

Good to know, because I intended to by it when it came out on DVD.
I know, I'm a compulsive SW buyer... ST too I have to add... nBSG... Blade... Ok, I'm a compulsive DVD buyer, period... :)

Tell me about it.

Come on, it wasn't that hard being better... :)

True, I've only seen the kid who played Eragon do worse. Heh, I can just see it now:

William Shatner's School of Acting

*The room is full of actors who played Eragon, Anakin Skywalker, Snails, and the entire cast of the Dungeons and Dragons movie*

William Shatner: You...people are terrible...get...the hell...out of my...school! KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

[Praeothmin]

Then why give us the yield? If a torpedo can perform a 40 megaton blast (it was stated that this was the max yield of the torpedo...so why not use the antimatter since it's already there?), then why not use a significant amount of that yield?

Then if it is always used at its maximum, then why does it have a variable yield at all?
Remember that before they had the photonic torpedoes, the NX was damaged by 500 Gigajoule weapons, and "standard" torpedoes...
Far below the 40 Megatons of the torpedoes.

Why not use the 40 Megaton capacity?
Perhaps because not even the firing ship would be able to resist the weapon at fighting range.
Even in TNG, it is said to be dangerous to fire torpedoes at maximum yield on ships close by, because of the shockwave.


Heck, in ST II we saw a Miranda being taken out by decidely sub-Megaton weapons.
I know they've been upgraded for the Dominon war, but I doubt that they have been made 10 times tougher then before.

In fact, it might be that the AM that fuels the torpedoes comes from the ship's entire AM reserve.
Although we know ST can create much AM, it might still have a limited supply per ship, depending on the size of the containers, and the power of the forcefields holding the AM.
Perhaps by using the maximum amount of AM per torpedo, the ships power levels and reserves would get used up pretty fast.

Basically, there is certainly a reason why the maximum yield isn't used, just as there is a result why Tricobalt torpedoes aren't used vs ships despite them being very powerful...

Granted, the SW could still down an NX-01 ship, given that her broadside would be about 36 megatons, pluse fighters and bombers, but it wouldn't be an easy fight.

As I stated above, don't forget that the NX used to fight vs ships shooting in the Gigajoule range, a far cry from the Megatons the ISD can fire.
And don't forget that the ISD is 20 years in the future compared to the Ships 2046 used for his calculations.

In 20 years in ST, we went from the E-D to the Defiant, Intrepid, Sovereign and Prometeus.
In SW, in a few years we saw the Acclamators, the Venators, and a lot of other vehicules.
So perhaps an ISD has twice the power of a Venator, like, say, 2 Megatons per cannon, for a total of 72 Megatons... :)

It's honestly tough to tell...

[Mike DiCenso]

Actually, photonic torpedoes range up to around 40 megatons, so it's about a 3 isoton weapon.

That is a very extremely optimistic upper end yield for a photonic torpedo. More likely 10-30 megatons would be realistically what you would need to put a 3 kilometer crater into modest sized asteroid. Also it is being very generous to assume that all of the explosion's energies are going to be directed at the ISD. At best 50-60% will be directed into the ISD from a dedonation against the hull or shields. An NX could get lucky, if she can land a torpedo inside a hanger bay, engine or garbage disposal chute, but that would take some fancy flying.

Oh the other hand, if the ISD can land enough hits with it's TL cannons, it can deliver far more energy efficently per square meter than a photonic torpedo's dedonation can.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Then if it is always used at its maximum, then why does it have a variable yield at all?
Remember that before they had the photonic torpedoes, the NX was damaged by 500 Gigajoule weapons, and "standard" torpedoes...
Far below the 40 Megatons of the torpedoes.

When was the NX-01 ever damaged by 500 GJ weapons? We know that the NX-01 had initially 500 GJ per shot per phase cannon, and that the NX-01 has survived hits from ships far in advance of her. However at the end of "Silent Enemy", the cannons were boosted via improvised overload to 10 times their normal maximum yield, or up to 10 TJ per shot from the combined phase cannon battery.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Why not use the 40 Megaton capacity?
Perhaps because not even the firing ship would be able to resist the weapon at fighting range.
Even in TNG, it is said to be dangerous to fire torpedoes at maximum yield on ships close by, because of the shockwave.

Actually, that was a full-yield, full-spread of torpedoes as stated in TNG's "The Nth Degree", and while in ST:ENT's "The Expanse", Archer orders the torpedoes yield increased from a relatively low setting up to 50%, which would mean, if you had a maximum yield of 10 megatons per torpedo, then the yield used at that time would be 5 MT, and so on. Interestingly enough, that being the case Dura's 22nd century BoP's forward shields was enough to withstand that kind of punishment when power from the aft shields was transfered to them.
-Mike