Warp-combat superiority

[KSW]

That's because the deflector dish can channel power through the warp core, as well as being, as Picard stated in First Contact, charged with antiprotons. It's also stated to be a particle emitter. Phasers are designed almost solely for the firing of nadion beams. The only reason that the phaser rifles on Voyager could fire nanites was because Tuvok modified them, and let's face it, a rifle is a helluva lot easier to modify than a starship's phaser banks.

Again, you're quibbling over technicalities, splitting hairs over which of Starfleet's technology CAN hit ships in hyperspace, claiming that the rest can't etc.

It's just ridiculous. And ship's phasers can be modified much more easily than phaser-rifles; they're quite versatile, like when they fought the Borg and cycled through frequencies upon Shelby's recommendation then and there.

And if the beam is EM particle-energy that's moving that fast, then it's already in subspace to that degree, simple as that.

[Khas]

Not so much "hit" as "force out of hyperspace".

The EM emissions were from the beams, as phaser beams give off light. And why are you still claiming that phasers are subspace weapons? If they were, Starfleet wouldn't use them, thanks to the Khitomer Accords. They're Nadion-Photon weapons.

And when you want to modify a phaser to fire nanites, a rifle is much easier to modify then a phaser bank.

[KSW]

Not so much "hit" as "force out of hyperspace".

Where do you get this? The EU?
If they fly through a star it doesn't force the ship out of hyperspace, it destroys it.

The EM emissions were from the beams, as phaser beams give off light.

That could be decay in hyperspace into normal space, otherwise you couldn't see it.

And why are you still claiming that phasers are subspace weapons? If they were, Starfleet wouldn't use them, thanks to the Khitomer Accords. They're Nadion-Photon weapons.

You're confused over semantics. Subspace weapons aren't simply every weapon that has some effect in subspace, it's completely different.

And when you want to modify a phaser to fire nanites, a rifle is much easier to modify then a phaser bank.

Who says? Did they try?

[Khas]

Not so much "hit" as "force out of hyperspace".

Where do you get this? The EU?
If they fly through a star it doesn't force the ship out of hyperspace, it destroys it.

Partially. If they fly too close to a star, they either collide with the mass shadow and are destroyed, or are forced out of hyperspace too close, and destroyed. Also, the EU isn't non-canon. It's canon as long as what's stated is supported by G- or T-Canon. However, this source comes from the novelization of The Force Unleashed II, which, should put it at T-Canon levels.

The EM emissions were from the beams, as phaser beams give off light.

That could be decay in hyperspace into normal space, otherwise you couldn't see it.

What.

And why are you still claiming that phasers are subspace weapons? If they were, Starfleet wouldn't use them, thanks to the Khitomer Accords. They're Nadion-Photon weapons.

You're confused over semantics. Subspace weapons aren't simply every weapon that has some effect in subspace, it's completely different.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Subspace_weapon

And when you want to modify a phaser to fire nanites, a rifle is much easier to modify then a phaser bank.

Who says? Did they try?

[/quote]

No, but let's consider the little fact that PHASER BANKS ARE SIGNIFICANTLY LARGER THAN PHASER RIFLES.

[KSW]

EU isn't non-canon.

Since you're writing your own rules, you're dismissed for this thread, go start your own.

[Khas]

Apparently you didn't read anything else I posted, or else you would have known that the EU is only canon when it's supported by G- and T- canon.

But I know that you'll ignore that point, call me a troll, and get butthurt, so what's the point. You do that when anyone disagrees with you in the slightest, so you might as well put the whole board on ignore, create an army of sockpuppets, and start talking to yourself.

[Picard]

Last time I checked (being quite a while, though), Lucas did not see EU as canon.

[Praeothmin]

Last time I checked (being quite a while, though), Lucas did not see EU as canon.

Which is still far from proving Hyperspace and Subspace are the same, or that ST sensors could detect ships in Hyperspace and that Phasers could hit them...

[KSW]

Last time I checked (being quite a while, though), Lucas did not see EU as canon.

Which is still far from proving Hyperspace and Subspace are the same, or that ST sensors could detect ships in Hyperspace and that Phasers could hit them...

You're demanding I prove a negative, i.e. that they're NOT the same and that the ship's NOT impervious to phasers while in hyperspace.

Sorry it don't work that way. Either prove they're different, or we're left with the inevitable conclusion that it's like any other subspace energy.

[KSW]

Last time I checked (being quite a while, though), Lucas did not see EU as canon.

It's true, he doesn't. Unfortunately some people (like Wong) are in schizophrenic denial of this, and so have thoroughly argued ad hominem against every claim of such, using the finest mental gymnastics to "prove" it LOL

[Khas]

Last time I checked (being quite a while, though), Lucas did not see EU as canon.

Which is still far from proving Hyperspace and Subspace are the same, or that ST sensors could detect ships in Hyperspace and that Phasers could hit them...

You're demanding I prove a negative, i.e. that they're NOT the same and that the ship's NOT impervious to phasers while in hyperspace.

Sorry it don't work that way. Either prove they're different, or we're left with the inevitable conclusion that it's like any other subspace energy.

I think Lucky provided links saying that both subspace and hyperspace existed in ST.

And tell me, WHEN HAVE WE EVER SEEN A SHIP THAT WASN'T IN SUBSPACE FIRE ON ONE THAT WAS? We've seen two ships that were both in subspace (Borg transwarp hub) fight, and two ships that weren't (too many examples to list). But when have we ever seen a battle where one ship was in subspace, and the other wasn't?

Answer: We haven't. This has NEVER happened in ST at any time ever. To quote Trinoya, you're talking out your ass on a level that makes SWST look honest.

As for the mass shadows in hyperspace, I got that from the novelization of TFU 2. Which, if you remember, The Force Unleashed games are considered canon by Lucas, considering that the whole Force Unleashed project was made with input from and under the guidance of Lucas himself. And since novelizations have the same canonicity as their source materials in SW, and going by Lucas' involvement, I have every right to say that mass shadows are canon.

And for the last time: PHASERS ARE NADION WEAPONS! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

[Praeothmin]

Either prove they're different, or we're left with the inevitable conclusion that it's like any other subspace energy.

Nope, YOU stated, without a shred of proof, but a shitload of wanky assumptions that defy logic, that ST ships could detect ships in Hyperspace, saying it was the same as Subspace...
Again, without a shred of evidence...
So until you PROVE with evidence, i.e. links saying they are the same, proof Hyperdrive and Warp Drive are the same, then the only conlcusion is that they ARE NOT the same...

[KSW]

I think Lucky provided links saying that both subspace and hyperspace existed in ST.

This is semantics again, since a star's mass-presence only extends into subspace.
Thus the question is moot.
Same with sensors; if the ship in subspace is moving faster than the Falcon and isn't detected, then you can't claim it wouldn't detect the Falcon.
They call it a wormhole" for a reason: i.e. the faster the trip, the deeper the ship.
For example if a worm went into an apple on one side and came out the other side in as little time as possible, he'd go in a straight line right through; but if he went slow as possible, he'd be crawling on the surface around the apple.

Code: Select all

And tell me, WHEN HAVE WE EVER SEEN A SHIP THAT WASN'T IN SUBSPACE FIRE ON ONE THAT WAS? 

When was there ever a ship moving SLOW enough in subspace that a phaser-beam could CATCH it? This must be answered first, since if the ship was moving faster than a phaser-beam then it's another moot point.

As for the mass shadows in hyperspace, I got that from the novelization of TFU 2. Which, if you remember, The Force Unleashed games are considered canon by Lucas, considering that the whole Force Unleashed project was made with input from and under the guidance of Lucas himself.
And since novelizations have the same canonicity as their source materials in SW, and going by Lucas' involvement, I have every right to say that mass shadows are canon.

Please provide the appropriate Lucas-quote and link, otherwise it's hearsay.
Lucas worked on Indiana Jones movies too, that doesn't make them Star Wars canon.

Likewise, "mass shadow" just means graviton-field, i.e. the gravity of the star could penetrate much deeper into subspace than the mass, just like star's gravity-field normally extends into a wider area around it.
When a ship runs into a star's graviton-field at 20,000C, that's going to obviously tear the ship apart if it's close enough.

And for the last time: PHASERS ARE NADION WEAPONS! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

They're also fired by a warp or transwarp conduit to allow them to go FTL.
And get it through YOUR head that if the fed is capable of doing something, consider it DONE rather than quibble over technicalities. Starfleet crews aren't dunces, when it comes to adapting technology they rival the Borg!

[KSW]

Either prove they're different, or we're left with the inevitable conclusion that it's like any other subspace energy.

Nope, YOU stated, without a shred of proof, but a shitload of wanky assumptions that defy logic, that ST ships could detect ships in Hyperspace, saying it was the same as Subspace...
Again, without a shred of evidence...

Translation: my logical explanation flew over your head like planes over gophers, and so you trampled it into the mud like pearls before swine.

Since you've failed to prove they're different when challenged, you forfeit.

[Khas]

I think Lucky provided links saying that both subspace and hyperspace existed in ST.

This is semantics again, since a star's mass-presence only extends into subspace.
Thus the question is moot.
Same with sensors; if the ship in subspace is moving faster than the Falcon and isn't detected, then you can't claim it wouldn't detect the Falcon.
They call it a wormhole" for a reason: i.e. the faster the trip, the deeper the ship.
For example if a worm went into an apple on one side and came out the other side in as little time as possible, he'd go in a straight line right through; but if he went slow as possible, he'd be crawling on the surface around the apple.

If they're mentioned as different things, which they were in ST, then it's just being dishonest to say that hyperspace and subspace are one and the same.

Code: Select all

And tell me, WHEN HAVE WE EVER SEEN A SHIP THAT WASN'T IN SUBSPACE FIRE ON ONE THAT WAS? 

When was there ever a ship moving SLOW enough in subspace that a phaser-beam could CATCH it? This must be answered first, since if the ship was moving faster than a phaser-beam then it's another moot point.

At 1:16, right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw5x6kW2 ... re=related Besides, even normal warp drive doesn't put a ship into subspace. Hell, a ship at warp doesn't even truly move! It merely uses subspace to create a space-time "bubble" around it that contracts in the front and expands in the back, much like the theoretical Alcubierre drive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

As for the mass shadows in hyperspace, I got that from the novelization of TFU 2. Which, if you remember, The Force Unleashed games are considered canon by Lucas, considering that the whole Force Unleashed project was made with input from and under the guidance of Lucas himself.
And since novelizations have the same canonicity as their source materials in SW, and going by Lucas' involvement, I have every right to say that mass shadows are canon.

Please provide the appropriate Lucas-quote and link, otherwise it's hearsay.
Lucas worked on Indiana Jones movies too, that doesn't make them Star Wars canon.

Not this again. If you want evidence: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force_Unleashed
We went over this a year ago, KSW. I provided links of people who worked on TFU telling us that Lucas worked on it. Here's a video with an interview with Hayden Blackman that includes him mentioning Lucas' involvement in TFU: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwVpZGgWdWk

Likewise, "mass shadow" just means graviton-field, i.e. the gravity of the star could penetrate much deeper into subspace than the mass, just like star's gravity-field normally extends into a wider area around it.
When a ship runs into a star's graviton-field at 20,000C, that's going to obviously tear the ship apart if it's close enough.

You lose points for failing to know how gravity works in the real world. IRL, gravitons - if they exist - only convey gravity on the subatomic scale. On the large scale, gravity is conveyed by matter distorting space-time, as per Einstein's Theory of General Relativity. It's still mass-shadows.

And for the last time: PHASERS ARE NADION WEAPONS! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

They're also fired by a warp or transwarp conduit to allow them to go FTL.
And get it through YOUR head that if the fed is capable of doing something, consider it DONE rather than quibble over technicalities. Starfleet crews aren't dunces, when it comes to adapting technology they rival the Borg![/quote]

Now you're just making stuff up. While it is true that they get their power from plasma conduits that get their power from the warp core, that's only because the warp core is also the main reactor for a starship. There's no such thing as a warp conduit, and a transwarp conduit is a region of subspace that behaves like a wormhole. Not a power relay on a starship. And I'm pretty sure the Borg vastly outrank the Federation when it comes to adapting tech.