The UFP vs. The Romulan Star Empire

[Mike DiCenso]

Um, "concessions" regarding blowing up ships? NO, I don't think so, that's an act of war and treachery which voids ALL treaties.

So you want them to be plunged into a bloody war which could last years and cost potentially billions of lives over one incident? The Romulans didn't go to war with the Federation after the "Deadly Years" incident, or the "Enteprise Incident", even though tehy had just cause to do so.

Yeah, it "really" does. If they fail, then it just goes on the records as a captain gone bonkers, and the Federation's not responsible; and if they succeed and get the cloaking device, then it's an act of espionage which gives the Federation a military advantage, so it doesn't matter if they don't like it.

Nonsense, a violation is a violation, especially here. This means you are being hypocritical; it's okay if the Federation does it, but it's wrong if the Romulans do a little. Come on. That's why neither side went to war after all this time because both sides know they're messing with each other like this, and it's not worth billions of lives and possibly both sides being left badly weakened and left at the mercy of other powers.

But this was back before Starfleet became a whimpering litter of neutered lapdogs who tremble in fear to the point of attacking each other to avoid outside trouble.

That's BS. The Federation didn't go to war with the Romulans over the violation by the warbird in "Balance of Terror" in 2267, which killed uncounted Starfleet outpost personel and destroyed several major military assets (the Enterprise her crew nearly was one of them), they certainly won't go to war over a botched attempted sabotage of one starship. And both sides have plenty they could claim justification for war, but don't do it for good reasons.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

[
If you recall, Kirk was ordered to feign insanity, in order to immunize the Federation from account for his actions if he failed; meanwhile Spock was ordered to pretend to be a traitor to the Federation as well, and essentially seduce the Romulan admiral.

This would actually show the importance of not screwing up with the treaty, although I don't know if it was already signed back then.

We don't know for certain if it pretains at all to the original treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan War in the 22nd century, although "The Defector" seems to strongly indicate that it is the original treaty and the prohibition of Federation cloaking technology development would then be an amendement added sixty years prior to the events of "The Pegasus" that apparently kept another major conflict from breaking out.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

Um, "concessions" regarding blowing up ships? NO, I don't think so, that's an act of war and treachery which voids ALL treaties.

So you want them to be plunged into a bloody war which could last years and cost potentially billions of lives over one incident?

"One incident?" Like Pearl Harbor was "one incident!"

The Romulans didn't go to war with the Federation after the "Deadly Years" incident, or the "Enteprise Incident", even though they had just cause to do so.

False-- those were NOT acts of war, just trespassing and espionage.
Blowing up a flagship under pretense of distress, meanwhile-- that's a little different.

Yeah, it "really" does. If they fail, then it just goes on the records as a captain gone bonkers, and the Federation's not responsible; and if they succeed and get the cloaking device, then it's an act of espionage which gives the Federation a military advantage, so it doesn't matter if they don't like it.

Nonsense, a violation is a violation, especially here.This means you are being hypocritical; it's okay if the Federation does it, but it's wrong if the Romulans do a little.

No, it means that there's a major difference between simple acts of trespassing and intelligence-gathering, and direct treachery and war by blowing up flagships.

[KirkSkyWalker]

[
If you recall, Kirk was ordered to feign insanity, in order to immunize the Federation from account for his actions if he failed; meanwhile Spock was ordered to pretend to be a traitor to the Federation as well, and essentially seduce the Romulan admiral.

This would actually show the importance of not screwing up with the treaty, although I don't know if it was already signed back then.

We don't know for certain if it pretains at all to the original treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan War in the 22nd century, although "The Defector" seems to strongly indicate that it is the original treaty and the prohibition of Federation cloaking technology development would then be an amendement added sixty years prior to the events of "The Pegasus" that apparently kept another major conflict from breaking out.
-Mike

Thus making it "Star Trek: The LAST Generation" since they was completely neutered, as evidenced by that wimp Picard.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Thus making it "Star Trek: The LAST Generation" since they was completely neutered, as evidenced by that wimp Picard.

Picard didn't create the treaty, he upheld it. How bad of him.

[Mike DiCenso]

"One incident?" Like Pearl Harbor was "one incident!"

Oh please, stop with the melodramatics, man. The attempted sabotage of the E-D is nothing compared to an equivalent situation in ST as the attack on Pearl Harbor, which would be far closer to the Romulan's attack on the Federation Neutral Zone outposts in 2267 since Pearl Harbor was a sneak attack on a major military installation, and the sinking of numerous captial ships.

No, it means that there's a major difference between simple acts of trespassing and intelligence-gathering, and direct treachery and war by blowing up flagships.

Tresspassing is good enough to start a war as Spock says in BoT:

The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established thi entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of wars Neutral Zone,

The Enterpise Incident was more than simple "intelligence-gathering"; it was outright violation of territory, kidnapping of a high-ranking officer, and theft.

Thus making it "Star Trek: The LAST Generation" since they was completely neutered, as evidenced by that wimp Picard.

Picard upheld the treaty as Oragahn said, it is what he was expected to do. Kirk's Federation and Stafleet did not got to war over the BoT massacure, there is no reason to expect them to go to war over anything else, short of a full-out invasion. In any case, just as with The Enterprise Incident, the Romulans in all cases could have claimed that in BoT and "The Next Phase" that the commanders of those ships were acting without knowledge of Romulan government and military. Also the Romulan science vessel was not pretending distress, they really had suffered an accident, but took the opportunity to destroy a Federation vessel on their own initiative. Thus the Romulan government could deny their actions.
-Mike

[The Dude]

Why do I get the impression that the point of the show flew over this lads head?

[Mike DiCenso]

Flew over? Perhaps active denial.
-Mike

[KirkSkyWalker]

Wow, amazing-- they continue to think that way even after 9/11.

[Who is like God arbour]

KirkSkywalker is correct when he says that the attempted destruction of the Enterprise can be considered a casus belli.

• • • • Although one should also consider how far the lonely decision of a Romulan captain of a Romulan ship can be attributed to the whole Romulan Empire.
        
        Imagine a captain of a US ship decides for whatever reason to attack a Russian ship. The US gouvernment swears believably that this decision was not approved. Then it may not be a casus belli but a crime and the Russian government could maybe demand the extradition of the responsible US captain for criminal prosecution.
        
        In Star Trek, there were similar situations:
        
        • In the movie » Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country «, what Kirk has allegedly done was not attributed to the Federation and Kirk was prosecuted for it.
        • In the TNG episode » The Wounded «, what Captain Maxwell has done, was not attributed to the Federation - after Picard has assured Gul Macet that Captain Maxwell is not following orders and acting on its own.
        • In the DS9 episode » Defiant «, what Lieutenant Thomas Riker has done was not attributed to the Federation.
        Although Starfleet officers have (allegedly) done things that could be considered a casus belli, if what they have done could have been attributed to the Federation, it was not considered a casus belli because it could not be attributed to the Federation.

But in that moment, it is the decision of the Federation if a between the Romulans and the Federation existing peace treaty (Treaty of Algeron) should be rescinded, what would put both affiliations in a state of war.

In such a situation, many things have to be considered. Not only, if the attempted destruction of the Enterprise is a good enough justification to begin a war, but also what the Federation could possibly gain in such a war and what loose.

Such a war would not only mean, that many Federation ships will be lost and Federation citizen will die, but also that the Federation citizen (especially Starfleet members) are forced to kill Romulans.

And contrary to some Americans, who do not seem to have a problem with abducting, mistreating and killing people as long as they aren't American citizens, members of Starfleet usually have a problem with being forced to kill other sentient beings, regardless of their affiliation.

And the Federation as such is not able to expand by conquest. Not only is it against their ideology, but also against their political structure. The Federation consists of members, who have a home planet and colonies. But each planet they could possibly conquer in a war can not become a member of the Federation - at least for a long time. Neither could such a planet become a colony of a member of the Federation.
The Federation as such would have to hold the plant occupied indefinitely.

Insofar, the question, why the Federation should decide to rescind the peace treaty and go to war over this incident, is a justified question.

KirkSkywalker, you should answer that question.

[Mike DiCenso]

KirkSkywalker, you should answer that question.

He's been asked to do so, and so far has failed to do so.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

Wow, amazing-- they continue to think that way even after 9/11.

Appeal to Emotion and possible Ad Hominem noted.
-Mike

[The Dude]

What the blue hell does 9/11 have to do with anything? Guess what, it was only a wake up call for America. The rest of us have been dealing with terrorism for decades, without going nuts I might add.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Wow, amazing-- they continue to think that way even after 9/11.

Appeal to Emotion and possible Ad Hominem noted.
-Mike

What the blue hell does 9/11 have to do with anything? Guess what, it was only a wake up call for America. The rest of us have been dealing with terrorism for decades, without going nuts I might add.

Yep, still the same elitist, pseudo-intellectual soft-touch appeasement; no point in debating that brick wall (i.e. Picard-fans).

[The Dude]

Look shit for brains, I'm ex-military. I'm also not a Picard fan, rather a TOS fan but 9/11 should have no bearing on Trek, its a fictional universe and while I don't agree completely with everything Roddenberry tried to do, I appreciate that the show was a direct result of his experiance in WWII.

And a hundred years from now, 9/11 will be a footnote, theres no reason for it to affect Trek or its fans. The universe departed from our time line decades back.