X Miranda's vs an ISD

[l33telboi]

What do you mean never? Didn't I just point out the example with Ion Cannon which establishes 10,000km range?

You did, yes. But it's not a spaceship, quite obviously. And you were talking about ship-to-ship combat. If you really wanted to compare ground-based defensive systems, then why not take that asteroid deflection system on Mars as an example from Trek? Effective range, Mars to Earth, minimum.

And I was only using the movies so obviously there won't be as many examples as in Star Trek.

If you want to use EU examples, then fine. I've got a few quotes of my own that might need sharing. But the mere fact that SW ships fire slow moving pulses should be enough to realize that they're going to have a very limited effective range against everything that isn't moving extremely slowly.

Not to mention that almost all of Star Trek examples involve stated ranges unlike the aforementioned SW example from which you can actually observe the range.

Why would you need to be able to see it if they say it's there? Are you saying we should distrust dialouge even if it's not contradicted by anything? That would be slightly absurd. One could basically make up entirely different plotlines for episodes and movies just by assuming that they're all talking about things that aren't related to on-screen events.

The comet deflection system also has a range that's shown, not just mentioned.

Actually I asked that 2046 provides the evidence of a single ship to ship battle which shows kiloton to megaton firepower. So even though this is not ship to ship combat I will take it however I still stand by my request to be shown that it has those effect.

The thread I mentioned earlier demonstrates that said energy is there.

The target will inevitably get heated if you hit it with sufficient energy regardless of whether it is kinetic or electrical etc. The fact that the target didn't get heated enough to create such effects limits the phaser energy.

The phasorization effect can hardly be classified as "kinetic, electrical, etc", it defies all form of logic. Besides, how would you even know if the targeted material got heated or not? It completly dissapears. What happened to it I can't say (and I doubt anyone could beyond speculation).

Like I said, given that we're dealing with some form of technology that just doesn't work in any plausible way, it's rather impossible to assign it any energy figures to it. Or even speculate how it's supposed to work.

[Praeothmin]

Situation with Tantive IV is analogous to that of the Queen's Yacht in TPM: the attacker wanted to disable the ship and used it's fire to bracket the ship's movement. Both times the attacker was able to hit a much smaller target: the main reactor on Tantive IV, hit the yacht at the exact spot that will disable the shields while causing minimal damage to the ship itself, pick off the droids. That is difficult to explain as simple luck. Secondly just because Tantive IV appears to move in the straight line that doesn't mean it's not evading by changing it's acceleration and velocity. Finally Tantive IV is 150 meters long and probably 30 meters wide. When you compare that to the 200 meters wide Miranda and look at how near the misses were you can see that all of the shots would have been hits if Miranda was placed there instead of Tantive IV.

Well, I'll have to disagree with this assessment too... :)

Most of the shots fired went over, and some to the side, but we haven't (AFAIR) seen many go under, which means that they sucked even at bracketing the Tantive IV, or that the Tantinve IV Captain was an idiot.

Let's say I'm the Tantive IV's Captain, I figure since none of the shots that hit intended destroyed us, I would quickly realize the ISD means to incapacitate my ship.
I also know I'm sure to get hit if I move in a straight line, and away from the ISD (moving in linear fashion will only increase the chances of a hit).
If I did have a ship as maneuverable as a Miranda, I would definitely try to move in a circular arc around the ISD, forcing the ship to track me to hit.
I would also definitely try to move below it, as I know most of its guns are on its dorsal side, and that an ISD has the manueverability of a thrown brick (see ESB when the 2 ISDs collide).

Even changing my acceleration (as little as was seen) wouldn't help much in a linear chase.

Had the Tantive IV been able to maneuver as a Miranda, I think it would have.
I'm not sold on the bracketing idea.

But I still agree that ST doesn't have a huge range advantage (if any) over SW... :)

[Cocytus]

Well, I guess it's time to trot out "The Wounded" again.

DATA
The Phoenix is beginning evasive
maneuvers.
(beat)
It has positioned itself outside
the weapons range of the opposing
ship.
(beat)
The Phoenix has powered up with
both phasers and photon
torpedoes.
(beat)
The Phoenix is firing photon
torpedoes.

There is absolutely no need to assume that the Pheonix closed to visual range with the Cardassian warship in order to fire torpedoes. And even if you do assume that, it would mean the Pheonix had to cover 300,000 km between Data's 2nd and 4th statemnets, making it capable of near lightspeed just on impulse. Which basically means they'd move too fast for Imperial vessels to hit anyway.

And the reason Ransom chose that particular planet in "Equinox" was it's parthogenic atmosphere, which he hoped would keep the ship concealed. So somehow the atmosphere disrupts sensors, meaning that as soon as he took his ship inside, Voyager's sensors could no longer see it clearly. So Janeway followed him in to maintain a minimum distance between the two ships and increase the chances of hitting it. If you're shooting blind, you stand a higher chance of hitting a target you know the GENERAL location of if you're closer to it.

[Praeothmin]

There is absolutely no need to assume that the Pheonix closed to visual range with the Cardassian warship in order to fire torpedoes. And even if you do assume that, it would mean the Pheonix had to cover 300,000 km between Data's 2nd and 4th statemnets, making it capable of near lightspeed just on impulse.

You're absolutely right, there's absolutely no reason to think that.
But one (or a few) examples fly right in the face of all the many (and a lot more numerous) examples where ST battles happen within spitting distance.

so when you take everything into account, we see that in a Miranda vs an ISD fight, at least 9 out of 10 times, the Miranda will close to spitting distance to fight the ISD... :)

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, I guess it's time to trot out "The Wounded" again.

DATA
The Phoenix is beginning evasive
maneuvers.
(beat)
It has positioned itself outside
the weapons range of the opposing
ship.
(beat)
The Phoenix has powered up with
both phasers and photon
torpedoes.
(beat)
The Phoenix is firing photon
torpedoes.

There is absolutely no need to assume that the Pheonix closed to visual range with the Cardassian warship in order to fire torpedoes. And even if you do assume that, it would mean the Pheonix had to cover 300,000 km between Data's 2nd and 4th statemnets, making it capable of near lightspeed just on impulse. Which basically means they'd move too fast for Imperial vessels to hit anyway.

And the reason Ransom chose that particular planet in "Equinox" was it's parthogenic atmosphere, which he hoped would keep the ship concealed. So somehow the atmosphere disrupts sensors, meaning that as soon as he took his ship inside, Voyager's sensors could no longer see it clearly. So Janeway followed him in to maintain a minimum distance between the two ships and increase the chances of hitting it. If you're shooting blind, you stand a higher chance of hitting a target you know the GENERAL location of if you're closer to it.

If the ship didn't cover that distance, the torp did it. Torps move near c now?

[Cocytus]

They don't necessarily have to "fly in the face" of those examples. We can divine logical reasons why combat occurs across shorter ranges in certain situations. Obviously for the example from "The Wounded," the Cardassian warship had surprised the Pheonix, and had the ability to, as per Worf, "dismantle its shields." So Maxwell would prefer to fight at maximum range in that case.

Take, for example, the TWOK battles. The Mutara Nebula battle occurs at short range for obvious reasons. The initial conflict occurs at short range because Khan wanted to deal a precise blow to the Enterprise, crippling her without destroying her, so he could gloat before he dealt the death blow.

The battle in Nemesis occurs across short ranges for much the same reason. Shinzon wanted specific systems on the E-E targeted. (Weapons systems and shields.) If the goal is simply to outright destroy a ship, then ST vessels can use their maximum range and lob as many torpedoes as they need. But if the goal is capture, disabling specific systems necessitates being much closer.

I suspect fleet battles occur over short ranges in order to reduce reaction time and maximize a network of supporting fire, and negate the advantages of fast, maneuverable ships (like the Defiant). If the fleet is too sparse, then fast attack ships could swarm the larger, slower heavy hitters and take them out. But if the fleet is packed fairly tightly, it establishes an interconnected web of supporting fire. It appears fleet combat in ST is a matter of attrition.

In any event, my third statement is the reason why I think the Miranda(s) would prefer to use its maximum range. An ISD is a huge, lumbering vessel, a fairly easy target to hit. The Miranda wouldn't be interested in attacking specific systems. Getting close enough to do so would get it shot to pieces fairly rapidly anyway. At that close range, the ISD can dish out far more firepower than it would absorb from the Miranda. At longer ranges, the ability of the ISD to hit the small, maneuverable starship would be greatly diminished, while the ISD would still present a large, slow target for the Miranda.

If the ship didn't cover that distance, the torp did. Torps move near c now?

This one did, apparently. The torps in "Half a Life" go even faster.

[Roondar]

Photon torpedoes consistently take 'about two seconds' to hit reach their targets, regardless of range.

Why this is so is hardly relevant, it is clearly true and that is all that matters in the end:

Photon torpedoes have shown high range and speed capability versus moving and nonmoving targets - repeatedly. There is no denying this happened because we it happens during the show!

Therefore, if you do deny that capability exists after you've been shown evidence that it in facts exists you are either really, really dumb or busy lying through your teeth. Take your pick.

[Praeothmin]

Therefore, if you do deny that capability exists after you've been shown evidence that it in facts exists you are either really, really dumb or busy lying through your teeth. Take your pick.

Well, ok then, the capability exists, and the reason why it isn't used more often is because in ST, all Captains are really stupid and could be out maneuvered in a fight by a 6 year old... :)

Now, we've been shown evidence that the majority of the fights in ST take place in spitting distance, or equal distance as fights in SW.
This is why I stated:

so when you take everything into account, we see that in a Miranda vs an ISD fight, at least 9 out of 10 times, the Miranda will close to spitting distance to fight the ISD... :)

Therefore, if you deny that most fights do happen at short ranges, then

you are either really, really dumb or busy lying through your teeth. Take your pick.

;)

[Roondar]

Therefore, if you do deny that capability exists after you've been shown evidence that it in facts exists you are either really, really dumb or busy lying through your teeth. Take your pick.

Well, ok then, the capability exists, and the reason why it isn't used more often is because in ST, all Captains are really stupid and could be out maneuvered in a fight by a 6 year old... :)

How about being honest and admitting we don't know the reason for the close fights instead of blindly assuming the ST captains are idiots?

There could be a gazillion reasons to choose against long range encounters. Ranging from 'lower reaction times' to 'ecm'.

Now, we've been shown evidence that the majority of the fights in ST take place in spitting distance, or equal distance as fights in SW.
This is why I stated:

so when you take everything into account, we see that in a Miranda vs an ISD fight, at least 9 out of 10 times, the Miranda will close to spitting distance to fight the ISD... :)

Therefore, if you deny that most fights do happen at short ranges, then

you are either really, really dumb or busy lying through your teeth. Take your pick.

;)

Lucky me then that I didn't do that.

Nor does it change that, despite your continued protests against it being so, some (as in, enough to make it a common occurance) fights do happen at high ranges.

Meaning: my point still stands.
Don't deny capabilities purely because you don't see them in use often. If you start doing that, we can just as easily say that 'Voyager can't fly at warp 9.9 because it only did so once' or 'The death star can't blow up worlds, because it only did so once' or 'The enterprise can't use phasers in combat because in most episodes they don't use them at all'.

The last one sums up your position perfectly by the way ;)

[Cocytus]

Let me see, there are the quantum torpedoes in "For the Uniform" hitting Solosos III from some thousands of kilometers a few seconds after firing. Then there's the torpedo in "Skin of Evil" covering 10,000 km or so in two seconds.

A majority of close range, mainly fleet style engagements does not invalidate the longer range examples, I'm sorry. Now, if you want to join us in arguing why they wouldn't use said ability in certain situations, you're welcome to. For the Equinox, Wrath of Khan and Nemesis battles, the ranges were short because the stated intention was to disable the opposing vessel, targeting a specific subsystem.

Janeway to Ransom. SURRENDER YOUR VESSEL

Surely I have made my meaning plain. I mean to avenge myself upon you, Admiral. I deprived your ship of power and when I swing around I mean to deprice you of your life. BUT I WANTED YOU TO KNOW FIRST WHO IT WAS WHO HAD BEATEN YOU

Target weapons systems and shields. I DON'T WANT THE ENTERPRISE DESTROYED

[Praeothmin]

How about being honest and admitting we don't know the reason for the close fights instead of blindly assuming the ST captains are idiots?

Then how about being honest here and admit that there is no reason for us to assume that fights vs SW vessels would be any different then fights vs ST vessels.

There could be a gazillion reasons to choose against long range encounters. Ranging from 'lower reaction times' to 'ecm'.

And those reasons would be the same when fighting against SW vessels.

ECM?
SW has got is, as per RoTJ:
Lando: "Hw can they be jamming us if they don't know we're coming?"

Lower reaction times?
Since Turbolaser bolts appear slightly faster then Phasers, and since SW also has anti-Capship torpedoes, then all the reasons for staying close to ST vessels still apply to SW vessels.

Add to that the fact that even vs slow-moving, non-maneuverable D'eridex Warbirds tha fights were still within spitting distance, and we have no reason to assume that the Mirandas would stay away from the ISD.
The closer you stay to a less maneuverable opponent, the easier it is to find blind spots and to "run circles" around it.

Lucky me then that I didn't do that.

Indeed... :)

Nor does it change that, despite your continued protests against it being so, some (as in, enough to make it a common occurance) fights do happen at high ranges.

And yet, despite yours' and Cocytus' continued protests against it being so, the majority of the fights (pretty much all those visually show, when we see the vessels firing on each other) happen within spitting distance.

Key word here being "majority", as in, "most off", "more of one then of the other", etc...
I have seen many "visual" battles in TNG, DS9, Voyager, and I don't remember any of them being at ranges greater then spitting range.

Let me reiterate:
Allowing for the fact that ST vessels have show great range capability, but also allowing for the fact that at least 8-9 out of 10 times said vessels have fought at "spitting range" from one another, then 8-9 out of 10 times, 3-5 Mirandas will be needed to take out an ISD.

Cocytus, yes, we have seen many fights where the intent was to capture the enemy or disable it, which does not, in any way, nullify all the other times (the majority of times) where the fights were to damage heavily and which fights were also in "spitting range".

Roondar, Cocytus, let me offer you the same compromise I've offered 2046, and let's simply agree to disagree.
I haven't convinced (and probably never will), and you haven't convinced me (and probably never will).

So let's all just be happy with our respective thick-headedness... :)

[Cocytus]

Fine, then.

You can't possibly prove your "9 out of 10" assertion. You're trying to apply statistics to something as arbitrary as human decision making. I was only arguing the technological aspect.

Well, ok then, the capability exists

Thanks. That was all I really cared about. Oh, and if you want a visual scene with a starship firing at longer ranges, I suggest you check out "Non Sequitur." A Nebula class starship fires on the runabout Yellowstone from beyond visual range. (Paris states it to be 5,000 km) The initial shot is a miss (warning shot or outright miss, pick whichever suits you), but hardly a unforgivable miss considering a Runabout would be pretty tiny from 5,000 km.

[Praeothmin]

(Paris states it to be 5,000 km) The initial shot is a miss (warning shot or outright miss, pick whichever suits you), but hardly a unforgivable miss considering a Runabout would be pretty tiny from 5,000 km.

By accepting tha capability, I also accept the ability to target and hit at those ranges.
My assertion has always been that the majority of the fights, for whatever reason, happened at spitball ranges.

Which brings us to:

You can't possibly prove your "9 out of 10" assertion.

And you're right, I can't, short of watching avery ST episode ever aired back to back and taking notes (which I will definitely not do :) ).
I believe I had stated that I was going from the fights I remembered seing recently.
But again, you're right, I can't.
It could be 7 out of 10, or 8.66 out of 10, for all I know.

You're trying to apply statistics to something as arbitrary as human decision making. I was only arguing the technological aspect.

Technological aspects which we had no reason to believe were different when opposing SW to ST.
All that remained then was a statistical analysis of the visual evidence.

But again, it's one I can't prove, as you stated...

[Mike DiCenso]

Thanks. That was all I really cared about. Oh, and if you want a visual scene with a starship firing at longer ranges, I suggest you check out "Non Sequitur." A Nebula class starship fires on the runabout Yellowstone from beyond visual range. (Paris states it to be 5,000 km) The initial shot is a miss (warning shot or outright miss, pick whichever suits you), but hardly a unforgivable miss considering a Runabout would be pretty tiny from 5,000 km.

There is also "Basics, Part I" where the Kazon fire on Voyager from over 4,000 km with photon torpedoes, and "Flashback", where the Excelsior is fired apon and hit by klingon torpedoes from beyond visual range (this is actually portrayed in the FX).
-Mike

[Roondar]

How about being honest and admitting we don't know the reason for the close fights instead of blindly assuming the ST captains are idiots?

Then how about being honest here and admit that there is no reason for us to assume that fights vs SW vessels would be any different then fights vs ST vessels.

There could be a gazillion reasons to choose against long range encounters. Ranging from 'lower reaction times' to 'ecm'.

And those reasons would be the same when fighting against SW vessels.

ECM?
SW has got is, as per RoTJ:
Lando: "Hw can they be jamming us if they don't know we're coming?"

Lower reaction times?
Since Turbolaser bolts appear slightly faster then Phasers, and since SW also has anti-Capship torpedoes, then all the reasons for staying close to ST vessels still apply to SW vessels.

Add to that the fact that even vs slow-moving, non-maneuverable D'eridex Warbirds tha fights were still within spitting distance, and we have no reason to assume that the Mirandas would stay away from the ISD.
The closer you stay to a less maneuverable opponent, the easier it is to find blind spots and to "run circles" around it.

Lucky me then that I didn't do that.

Indeed... :)

Nor does it change that, despite your continued protests against it being so, some (as in, enough to make it a common occurance) fights do happen at high ranges.

And yet, despite yours' and Cocytus' continued protests against it being so, the majority of the fights (pretty much all those visually show, when we see the vessels firing on each other) happen within spitting distance.

Key word here being "majority", as in, "most off", "more of one then of the other", etc...
I have seen many "visual" battles in TNG, DS9, Voyager, and I don't remember any of them being at ranges greater then spitting range.

Let me reiterate:
Allowing for the fact that ST vessels have show great range capability, but also allowing for the fact that at least 8-9 out of 10 times said vessels have fought at "spitting range" from one another, then 8-9 out of 10 times, 3-5 Mirandas will be needed to take out an ISD.

Cocytus, yes, we have seen many fights where the intent was to capture the enemy or disable it, which does not, in any way, nullify all the other times (the majority of times) where the fights were to damage heavily and which fights were also in "spitting range".

Roondar, Cocytus, let me offer you the same compromise I've offered 2046, and let's simply agree to disagree.
I haven't convinced (and probably never will), and you haven't convinced me (and probably never will).

So let's all just be happy with our respective thick-headedness... :)

Like Cocytus my 'quarrel' was basically the rather blunt denial that ST ships even had the capability that irked me. This happens far to often in VS debates where Star Trek is one of the sides and so I tend to react to that.

Now that you have admitted that it exists my complaint is addressed.

All in all a bit of an off-topic thing, because I don't feel a single Miranda can defeat an ISD either ;)