Warp-combat superiority

[Lucky]

I didn't say they were submerged, that would be a wormhole. Warp means that the remains in normal-space while also in subspace.

Now you're being self contradictory, and coy. Show the evidence that was asked for even if all you have is memory alpha.

When did I say they were gravity-weapons?

Every post prior to this one. Prove Phasers have a gravity or sub-space component. As things stand all I know of is that phasers are particle beam weapons that might incorporate some sort of forcefield.

Who says tachyons exist in normal space?

You need to show quotes that support your theories rather then play coy, and show a poor understanding of basic physics.

A tachyon is simply something that has always moved faster then light.

A ship in hyperspace can run into a star or too close to a supernova; so it stands to reason that the can be tracked by Federation starship sensors, since they should be able to detect anything that can be affected by such.
We also know that ships can be tracked by homing-devices placed on the hull, so it's not like the ship disappears from the universe; rather, if sensors can penetrate far enough into subspace then it should accomplish the same effect-- and they definitely penetrate farther than stars or supernovas.

So do phasers and quantum torpedoes.

Claims, but no evidence

Check again. They'd have to be subspace-based in order to move FTL. That's basic physics, i.e. nothing in normal space can move FTL. E=MC^2 etc.

Again, the visible portion of the phaser is just decay, otherwise it wouldn't be visible.

[WARNING: GEEK-ALERT!!!]

We know that a star's gravity cannot penetrate into subspace at an intensity of more than 28,000 G's; since otherwise it wouldn't be a star, but a BLACK HOLE, as its escape-velocity would be higher than lightspeed; and thus its mass would collapse entirely, like the planet Vulcan on red-matter.

(Calculations: 1 G = escape velocity of 11,000m/s.
Therefore 28,000 G's = 28,000 x 11,000 m/s = 308,000,000m/s = 1.03C))

Meanwhile a ship's phaser moves at least tens of thousands of times faster than lightspeed, so that's tens of thousands of times deeper into subspace than even the most densely massive star.

Therefore if the phasers can move faster than the ship in hyperspace, then it can hit the ship, since it penetrates deeper. And a phaser is far more destructive than a star's gravity; since not only does it penetrate deeper into subspace than a star's gravity, but the effect is far more disruptive-- i.e. a star's gravity is fairly constant, while a phaser is designed to disrupt things as much as possible, literally to rip things apart at the quantum level through subspace disruption; that's why things struck with a disruptor-phaser would simply "disappear" without a trace.

So in conclusion: if a star's gravity would destroy a ship in hyperspace, then a phaser-strike would really give it an owie... while a quantum torpedo would likewise "bring their little trip to an end real quick," even if it were the Death Star.

Anyway, thanks for the good questions!

No evidence, and mistakes when it comes to physics. Why should we assume a phasers and standard torpedos could touch something in what Star Wars powers call hyperspace? Evidence! You have several sites that post the scripts and transcripts of every Star Trek movie and episode, and a fairly reliable star trek wiki.

[KSW]

I've already shown that if phasers can hit the ship in hyperspace, they can destroy it QED.
If you claim they can't, show evidence how phasers are any less powerful than the impact of a star or supernova.

[Trinoya]

Could you please bold.. and underline the specific 'evidence' you cited that allowed phasers to hit ships in hyperspace. I'm honestly curious.

[Praeothmin]

Could you please bold.. and underline the specific 'evidence' you cited that allowed phasers to hit ships in hyperspace. I'm honestly curious.

Don't hold your breath... :)

[Mike DiCenso]

On that note, I'm putting KSW on notice that he needs to provide real evidence, not merely wild baseless speculation.
-Mike

[KSW]

What do you want, an example of a phaser hitting a ship in hyperspace-- on condition that if I can't, then it's immune to phasers?

If a star or supernova will destroy the ship, then a more-intense phaser-beam logically would do the same.

I've already calculated the intensity of a star's gravitational field, and they've offered NO counterargument, just contradiction. So I win by forfeit alone.

[Khas]

Wait, did you HONESTLY just claim that a phaser is more powerful than a supernova? You're joking, right?

Not to mention you're ignoring the little thing about MASS SHADOWS in hyperspace. You know, how objects in realspace produce "shadows" in hyperspace that can damage or destroy things in hyperspace?

[KSW]

Wait, did you HONESTLY just claim that a phaser is more powerful than a supernova? You're joking, right?

I never said "more powerful."
Power is a measure of total energy/second, while intensity is a measure of power/unit of area.
Obviously a phaser-beam strike area is much smaller than a supernova, while the matter-antimatter reaction of a torpedo is more intense than a fusion-powered supernova.

Likewise there's the question of gravity; again, a star's gravity MUST be less than 28,000G's even at the core, or else it would become a black hole. In contrast, phasers can concentrate much greater intensity since they travel more than 28,000 times lightspeed while a normal energy-beam only moves at C.

[Khas]

Well, more concentrated, yes. But here's the thing. A phaser beam's mass - if it has one - is negligible. A star or supernova's mass is absolutely humongous. A phaser might not even have a mass shadow, while a star produces a colossal one.

[KSW]

Well, more concentrated, yes. But here's the thing. A phaser beam's mass - if it has one - is negligible. A star or supernova's mass is absolutely humongous. A phaser might not even have a mass shadow, while a star produces a colossal one.

The star's mass doesn't extend into hyperspace, only its gravity-well, which pulls on the ship and rips it apart.
And it's not a "shadow," which is simply a relative absence of energy-- like when Yoda referred to Kamino's "gravity-silhouette" due to the stars and planets in the region being pulled toward something that wasn't on the charts.

In contrast, a star's gravity-well is created by gravitons-- which are also the means by which the ship's warp-engines bend space, while phasers operate in a similar manner but much more destructively.
In other words, Starfleet technology can create gravitons artificially, without mass to create graviton-fields, via using a transtator-- just like today you can create magnetic fields using an electromagnet.

Again, a star's gravitational cannot be greater than 28,000 G's, because then it would become a black hole and collapse in on itself; meanwhile phasers can concentrate gravitons much greater than this, since otherwise the energy would propagate at less then 28,000 C.

And again, a supernova is simple fusion, while torpedoes annhilate actual antimatter; so the intensity would be greater in the impact-zone.

[Khas]

A) Gravitons are still only theoretical. We haven't actually seen them in particle accelerators.

B) Gravitons , if they exist, only convey gravity on the subatomic scale. For massive objects, gravity is caused by matter bending space-time. It is these space-time distortions that appear in hyperspace as mass-shadows.

[KSW]

A) Gravitons are still only theoretical. We haven't actually seen them in particle accelerators.

EVERYTHING in star Trek is only theoretical!
The point is that it's CANONICAL.
From Starfleet Memory Alpha:

Graviton-
A graviton is a subatomic particle which transmits the force of gravity.

B) Gravitons , if they exist, only convey gravity on the subatomic scale. For massive objects, gravity is caused by matter bending space-time. It is these space-time distortions that appear in hyperspace as mass-shadows.

Again, EVERYTHING in Starfleet tech is based on gravitons and bending space-time!
Why do you think they call it warp drive?
Starfleet tech uses gravitons, the way that we today use photons and electrons.

Again from Memory Alpha:

Graviton field

A graviton field is any area in which many gravitons may be found. Graviton fields are used in the production of artificial gravity. They are also found naturally-occurring in space.

[Khas]

Except Star Trek didn't invent gravitons.

[Mike DiCenso]

This is getting ridiculous. KSW, how does a Memory Alpha article prove your point that phasers are graviton-based? Canonically all we know is that shields are graviton-based. In fact, based on what little we do know, phasers cannot be gravitons since in "Best of Both Worlds, Part 2":

RIKER: But this is not the time for change. I need you all where you are, where Captain Picard always relied on you. I have been, reluctantly, forced to conclude that Commander Shelby, our expert on the Borg, is an ideal choice at this time for first officer. Based on our latest communication, we can assume that the Borg survived the fleet's attack. Your thoughts on our next encounter?

SHELBY: What about the heavy graviton beam we were talking about?

LAFORGE: I've gone over it four times. The local field distortion just wouldn't be strong enough to incapacitate them.



If phasers operated on that principle, then why not mention that? Also, Han's statement in ANH goes like this:

"Traveling through hyperspace isn't like dusting crops, boy!
Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or
bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick,
wouldn't it?"

Too close or through. Bounce too close suggests they'd come out of hyperspace near such an event and be severely damaged or destroyed. Anyway, no evidence from you will mean another warning for you.
-Mike

[Cocytus]

Don't we already know phasers are based on a particle called a nadion?

From "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges:"

Bashir:

Second, Sloan's plan is to kill
Koval while making it appear to
be an accelerated case of Tuvan
Syndrome. To do that, he'd have
to expose Koval to a short burst
of nadion radiation. The
simplest plan would be to
maneuver Koval near a phaser
relay and surreptitiously
irradiate him

From "Demon:"

Janeway:

There must be some way to disperse
it. Try a nadion burst from the phaser
emitters. It may weaken the
electromagnetic properties of the fluid.